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Lulav

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To both you and your support group, I did read your link and searched around the site as well. You posted it as the other side from what Visionary posted from Jerusalem. I have nothing against this Pope, really knew nothing about him but your link seemed to contradict what Jews believed about this man, so I did some research, albeit on the internet because that is all I have access to at present.

I thought it fair to give another POV.

I did not attack you for your post, but I sure have been under attack from mine.

Now, did you read mine?
 
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Lulav

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I have to agree with Ivy here but am inclined to add to it: you have not read the link I posted, never considered the other side of the story, and you probably never will.

Nothing new here, when do you two ever disagree?
 
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ContraMundum

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To both you and your support group..

I always thought of myself as their support. :)

I did not attack you for your post, but I sure have been under attack from mine.

Now, did you read mine?

I must admit that I started to read yours, but just couldn't finish it. Sorry, but I had heard most of it all before.
 
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Lulav

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Filed under Antisemitism

Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust Jewish Encyclopedia


Pope Pius XII's (1876-1958) actions during the Holocaust remain controversial. For much of the war, he maintained a public front of indifference and remained silent while German atrocities were committed. He refused pleas for help on the grounds of neutrality, while making statements condemning injustices in general. Privately, he sheltered a small number of Jews and spoke to a few select officials, encouraging them to help the Jews.


  • Twelve years in Germany from 1917, when he was appointed Papal Nuncio in Bavaria, until 1929
  • Elected Pope in 1939
  • March 1939 he obtained 3,000 visas to enter Brazil for European Jews who had been baptized and converted to Catholicism. Two-thirds of these were later revoked, however, because of "improper conduct," probably meaning that the Jews started practicing Judaism once in Brazil. At that time, the Pope did nothing to save practicing Jews.
  • Throughout the Holocaust, Pius XII was consistently besieged with pleas for help on behalf of the Jews.
  • In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal Secretary of State, Cardinal Luigi Maglione to intercede to keep Jews in Spain from being deported to Germany. He later made a similar request for Jews in Lithuania. The papacy did nothing
  • In October 1941, the Assistant Chief of the U.S. delegation to the Vatican, Harold Tittman, asked the Pope to condemn the atrocities. The response came that the Holy See wanted to remain "neutral," and that condemning the atrocities would have a negative influence on Catholics in German-held lands.
  • On September 18, 1942, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, wrote, "The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms. Yet, that same month when Myron Taylor, U.S. representative to the Vatican, warned the Pope that his silence was endangering his moral prestige, the Secretary of State responded on the Pope's behalf that it was impossible to verify rumors about crimes committed against the Jews.
  • In January 1943 Wladislaw Raczkiewicz, president of the Polish government-in-exile, appealed to the Pope to publicly denounce Nazi violence. Bishop Preysing of Berlin did the same, at least twice. Pius XII refused.
 
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Lulav

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John Cornwell isn't a Catholic. He's an ex-catholic who by his own admission used to like to toy with testing his student's faith.
From what I've read about him he was raised Catholic, went to Seminary for somewhere between 5-7 years. Then he did become an agnostic but stayed in the family by marrying a Catholic girls and raising his children Catholic, he returned to the faith years later.

There is nothing wrong with testing one's faith.

He also based the bits you quoted on supposed secret vatican documents that only he has seen.
And?

The funny thing about this whole debate is that the vast majority of Jewish scholarly opinion and published work overwhelmingly supports Pius XII.
You have compared all that's been written and by whom to state this?

You talk about "the other side" but you appearntly don't actually read the Jewish side.
Are you Jewish?
 
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Lulav

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Here are some quotes from the man who was supposed to be Hitler's Pope...

After reading Mein Kampf he told fellow diplomats that Hilter was "obsessed" and was a new manifestation of the anti-christ.

Moved by Christian charity, the Holy See is obligated to protect the Jewish people against unjust vexations and, just as it reprobates all rancor and conflicts between peoples, it particularly condemns unreservedly hatred against the people once chosen by God; the hatred that goes by the name of anti-Semitism
- 1928 (before becoming Pope)

belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with Catholic conscience
-1930 (also before becoming Pope)
Many politicians say things before being elected, which mainly holds true that they do and say just the opposite after election.

In a September 1940 broadcast (after becoming Pope), the Vatican called its policy "neutrality," but stated in the same broadcast that where morality was involved, no neutrality was possible. This could only imply that mass murder was not a moral issue.


The Pope's indifference to the mistreatment of Jews was often clear. In 1941,(after becoming Pope) for example, after being asked by French Marshal Henri Philippe Petain if the Vatican would object to anti-Jewish laws, Pius XII answered that the church condemned racism, but did not repudiate every rule against the Jews. When Petain's French puppet government introduced "Jewish statutes," the Vichy ambassador to the Holy See informed Petain that the Vatican did not consider the legislation in conflict with Catholic teachings, as long as they were carried out with "charity" and "justice."


Robert Wistrich notes that “by the end of 1942, (after becoming Pope) the Vatican was among the best-informed institutions in Europe concerning the Holocaust. Except for the Germans or perhaps British intelligence, few people were more aware of the local details as well as the larger picture.”

The Papacy isn't political you say?

Historians point out that any support the Pope did give the Jews came after 1942, once U.S. officials told him that the allies wanted total victory, and it became likely that they would get it. Furthering the notion that any intervention by Pius XII was based on practical advantage rather than moral inclination is the fact that in late 1942, Pius XII began to advise the German and Hungarian bishops that it would be to their ultimate political advantage to go on record as speaking out against the massacre of the Jews.

In Italy:

Pius XII knew that Jewish deportations from Italy were impending. The Vatican even found out from SS First Lieutenant Kurt Gerstein the fate of those who were to be deported. Publicly, the Pope stayed silent. Privately, Pius did instruct Catholic institutions to take in Jews. The Vatican itself hid 477 Jews and another 4,238 Jews were protected in Roman monasteries and convents.

On October 16, the Nazis arrested 1,007 Roman Jews, the majority of whom were women and children. They were taken to Auschwitz, where 811 were gassed immediately. Of those sent to the concentration camp, 16 survived.

The Pope protected 4,715 native Jews to Italy, while having authority in many of the countries where deportations were taking place.
In Poland:
Oscar Schindler, A Catholic German,
working in Poland by himself saved over 1200, including woman , children and handicapped. He called the Jews he protected, His children. He spent everything he had to save them and died pennyless.
 
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yedida

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I'm of the understanding that our President at the time was aware of what was going on in Europe regarding the Jews, but didn't get involved until the Japanese forced the issue. I don't know how reliable my info is but it's not hard for me to believe that it's true.

As far as offering protection with a price - that's just wrong. It was then, it would still be today. With the way so-called Christians have treated the Jews over the centuries it's a wonder that we have even one Jew who loves Jesus! We all could learn some very important lessons from these wonderful brothers and sisters of ours.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Are you Jewish?

Nope, I'm not.

I did, however, list four books on this topic, written by Jewish historians, statesmen, and a rabbi.

Perhaps you've read them... but it seems to me that what you've got is one book written by a non-jew who makes claims that are not backed up by anything other than his own word that he witnessed a bunch of supposed secret documents.

You seem intent on taking his word, over that of the affor mentioned Jewish authors, most of whom were actually living during the events which are at issue. Why is that?
 
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Desert Rose

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-To both you and your support group..

-I always thought of myself as their support.

He better remain our support group, Lulav! or we take him to the woodshed, and.. God be his helper. "Hell knows no fury like girls from religious e-forum scorned", as one poet from middleages said, wisely foreseeing that situation eventually happening, in the distant future

(Does this mean I get to be the Pope?.....

:Ddropping to my knees.. Popess Joan, version 2.0 and in the open this time! :)thumbsup:wonder if i can get a cushy position of bishopess or cardinal-ess under the new management,that's real sinecure... lets butter up the boss):

Your Highness, you look beautiful today in white and gold! Holy Father, i mean, Mother Ivy, When do we expect a long overdue release of the Next Papal Bull? Make it ex cathedra to shut up all the boys arguments, or there will be no end to debate.... Can we emhasize the necessity of a chocolate shop within Vatican walls?
 
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Desert Rose

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I thought it fair to give another POV.

Amen, dear! Guys tend to get very categorical at times, but thats why God gave them us-we women find middle ground,compromise and see "grey" areas more gladly .. The truth is probably somewhere in between articles , just as all of us are bad and good in the same time, Popes were humans, too.

To add an aspect.. I had to study the Shoah, written papers on it, etc in quite depth, as part of curriculum. Toughest lesson, and the source of much guilt for Jews is in realisation "we found an enemy and it's us".
We are just as responsible for our pain as our enemies, as it often happens.. There were Jews traitors, Jews betrayers, Jews who suck it up to Germans to save themselves, girls who married german soldiers, forgetting their identity, to change name and remain alive.Was it prudent? After all, Warsaw Ghetto revolt was stopped .. But before we point fingers, I admit I am not sure what would I do to save myself or my child, if i had one.

I think of Queen Ester.She was chickening out too at first, sort of: "Uncle, i cant help - sure, the dude is an emptyheaded womanizer,and sort of dumb. Smart Jewish girl can easy manipulate such shmuck of husband, but he hasnt called for me in a while!" Mordechai had to threaten her "Dont you think that if you bail out now and forget your people .....etc.."

Humans are fallen, deeply fallen creatures. That might be part of the reason why Isr Gov doesnt send commandos to level Vatican on this issue, but lets its go... ;-)
 
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Desert Rose

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With the way so-called Christians have treated the Jews over the centuries it's a wonder that we have even one Jew who loves Jesus! We all could learn some very important lessons from these wonderful brothers and sisters of ours.

Agreed! eloquently put. Strictly speaking though, hating Jesus because his followers are bad , is the wrong motivation, just as loving and following Jesus becasue Oscar Shindler was a great, Christlike Catholic Christian would be the wrong motivation

we Jews are smarter then to base our faith on such volative thing as quality of human followers of the Deity.
 
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Ivy

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:)thumbsup:wonder if i can get a cushy position of bishopess or cardinal-ess under the new management,t):

Can we emhasize the necessity of a chocolate shop within Vatican walls?

With such suggestions as these, your ascendancy is assured, my dear! :D:D:D
 
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Lulav

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Nope, I'm not.

I did, however, list four books on this topic, written by Jewish historians, statesmen, and a rabbi.

Perhaps you've read them... but it seems to me that what you've got is one book written by a non-jew who makes claims that are not backed up by anything other than his own word that he witnessed a bunch of supposed secret documents.

You seem intent on taking his word, over that of the affor mentioned Jewish authors, most of whom were actually living during the events which are at issue. Why is that?

If you are not Jewish what gives you the right to accuse a Jew of not reading the Jewish side?

Perhaps I am using the Catholic documentation to not appear biased.

But contrary to your assessment, I have quoted from a lot more than just this one man as you said.

I have quoted from Robert Solomon Wistrich who is a Professor of European and Jewish history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and the head of the University's Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism. Wistrich is considered a leading scholar of the history of antisemitism.

As well as Dr William R. Perl who was alive and active during the war and helped to save thousands of Jews (the estimate is around 40,000) between 1937-1944. He died at age 92 in 1998 . 'Living during the events which are at issue'.

And Sir Martin Gilbert the British historian who was Churchhills biographer, who is a also a Jew and Zionist and is married to Esther Goldberg who is herself a Holocaust Historian. He has written over 80 books many which deal with the Holocaust and Jewish history.


There's more but I think I've made my point.
 
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Desert Rose

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With such suggestions as these, your ascendancy is assured, my dear! :D:D:D

thats what i like about all my catholic friends, they are mature enough to joke about their own and their Church's errors and mistakes.
- certain Bulls in both sense of the word, Borgia, "we catholics dont get divorced -marriages never existed in the first place, we dont take birth control- we take pills to alleviate painful periods", etc.
They dont cover up, but rather admit shortcomings, it shows much humbleness.
As if Messianics or us Protestant dont have our own share of idiocies and occasional hypocrisy:blush:

We all lack godliness, Jews, catholics, protestants.. Realising our own faults helps us easier forgive others and not send entire Golani brigade to grab a speck out of Pope's eye ;)
 
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Ivy

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thats what i like about all my catholic friends, they are mature enough to joke about their own and their Church's errors and mistakes.
- certain Bulls in both sense of the word, Borgia, "we catholics dont get divorced -marriages never existed in the first place, we dont take birth control- we take pills to alleviate painful periods", etc.

Yes, as these examples plainly show "pil pul," (though I don't think I spelled that right:sorry:) is something we all have a bit of genius for, whether Jew or Gentile. ^_^^_^^_^ I think we do it to keep God rolling his eyes in amusement..."oh boy, let's see how they justify this one!" :D
 
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Desert Rose

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Yes, as these examples plainly show "pil pul," (though I don't think I spelled that right:sorry:) is something we all have a bit of genius for, whether Jew or Gentile. ^_^^_^^_^ I think we do it to keep God rolling his eyes in amusement..."oh boy, let's see how they justify this one!" :D


you spelled it perfectly, sister. I agree, even dont get it much -vague ,difficult theological philosophical concepts fly over my head,I "think in binary" usually

To justify ourselves a bit more .... the world is so messed up sometimes, we need to make up explanations of our counterintuitive actions just ot stay sane and not go bonkers..

Like back to Esther, I know i'd be going crazy, if I was her,and i wasnt clinically observant Jewess, but lite reformed.
So you marry a nonjew-thats when it pays to be orphan, so you dont listen to your mothers opinion on that fact, daily. After all the pageant parades hoopla that holllow-headed dimwit loses interest in his bride for a month, just when Jews are facing genocide. I'd go tell him- "I deal with your sorry gentile dog's donkey as a good wife should, all the body oils coming out of my ears now,I smell like a cheap parfum store,and thats the thanks I get?Maybe ex-Mrs.Artaxerxes had a point after all"

We need to do whats wrong to get the right result, which is still a sin, but..We are so sinful and beyong repair by our own power:)...
 
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ContraMundum

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Yes, as these examples plainly show "pil pul," (though I don't think I spelled that right:sorry:) is something we all have a bit of genius for, whether Jew or Gentile. ^_^^_^^_^ I think we do it to keep God rolling his eyes in amusement..."oh boy, let's see how they justify this one!" :D

Pilpul- now there's a word I haven't seen around for ages! :cool:
 
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Lulav

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Like back to Esther, I know i'd be going crazy, if I was her,and i wasnt clinically observant Jewess, but lite reformed.
So you marry a nonjew-thats when it pays to be orphan, so you dont listen to your mothers opinion on that fact, daily. After all the pageant parades hoopla that holllow-headed dimwit loses interest in his bride for a month, just when Jews are facing genocide. I'd go tell him- "I deal with your sorry gentile dog's donkey as a good wife should, all the body oils coming out of my ears now,I smell like a cheap parfum store,and thats the thanks I get?Maybe ex-Mrs.Artaxerxes had a point after all"

DR, you are a pill. :D
 
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