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Lulav

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Perhaps because they no longer believe the propaganda that is the so called truth about what happened.

PaceIli wrote back on September 28, 1917, informing Gasparri that he had again seen the Rabbi, who "was perfectly convinced of the reasons I had given him and thanked me warmly for all that I had done on his behalf." Pacelli ('Pius') had done nothing except thwart the rabbi's request. The episode, small in itself, belies subsequent claims that Pacelli had a great love of the Jewish religion and was always motivated by its best interests.

Eighteen months later he revealed his antipathy toward the Jews in a more blatantly anti-Semitic fashion when he found himself at the center of a local revolution as Bolshevik groups struggled to take advantage of the chaos in postwar Munich. Writing to Gasparri, Pacelli described the revolutionaries and their chief, Eugen Levien in their headquarters in the former royal palace. The letter has lain in the Vatican secret archive like a time bomb until now: "The scene that presented itself at the palace was indescribable. The confusion totally chaotic, the filth completely nauseating; soldiers and armed workers coming and going; the building, once the home of a king, resounding with screams, vile language, profanities. Absolute hell. An army of employees were dashing to and fro, giving out orders, waving bits of paper, and in the midst of all this, a gang of young women, of dubious appearance, Jews like all the rest of them, hanging around in all the offices with provocative demeanor and suggestive smiles. The boss of this female gang was Levien's mistress, a young Russian woman, a Jew and a divorcee, who was in charge. And it was to her that the nunciature was obliged to pay homage in order to proceed. This Levien is a young man, about 30 or 35, also Russian and a Jew. Pale, dirty, with vacant eyes, hoarse voice, vulgar, repulsive, with a face that is both intelligent and sly."

Nice, huh?

This association of Jewishness with Bolshevism confirms that Pacelli, from his early 40s, nourished a suspicion of and contempt for the Jews for political reasons. But the repeated references to the Jewishness of these individuals, along with the catalogue of stereotypical epithets deploring their physical and moral repulsiveness, betray a scorn and revulsion consistent with anti-Semitism.

Not long after this, Pacelli campaigned to have black French troops removed from the Rhineland, convinced that they were raping women and abusing children - even though an independent inquiry sponsored by the U.S. Congress, of which Pacelli was aware, proved this allegation false. Twenty-three years later, when the Allies were about to enter Rome, he asked the British envoy to the Vatican to request of the British Foreign Office that no Allied colored troops would be among the small number that might be garrisoned in Rome after the occupation.

Hitler had a similar regard for the Blacks

"According to J. A. Rogers, Adolph Hitler declares in Mein Kampf Negroes are "half-apes." This is far from being the opinion of pre-Hitler Germany if one is to judge by the various monuments and pictures of Negroes in German museums and other public places..."



Blacks during the Holocaust (US Holocaust Memorial Museum)
 
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Lulav

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Well, we all have our own side of the story, don't we? That's regular human stuff. I think only God comprehends the entire reality, and that's something else besides human sides of the story. That's a reason to fear, and it's a reason to hope in his mercy, too.

Not my side, not at all. What I've posted has come from research of a Catholic into Vatican documents which he obtained by special permission.

I would say this is the Vatican's side of the story.

John Cornwall is Senior Research Fellow at Jesus College, Cambridge, England, and an award winning journalist and author. His A Thief in the Night: The Death of Pope John Paul I was a world bestseller. He has profiled Pope John Paul II for Vanity Fair and the London Sunday Times Magazine and has written on Catholic issues for many publications around the world.
How it came about
One evening several years ago when I was having dinner with a group of students, the topic of the papacy was broached, and the discussion quickly boiled over. A young woman asserted that Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, the Pope during World War II, had brought lasting shame on thc Catholic Church by failing to denounce the Final Solution. A young man, a practicing Catholic, insisted that the case had never been proved.

Raised as a Catholic during the papacy of Pius Xll - his picture gazed down from the wall of every classroom during my childhood - I was only too familiar with the allegation. It started in 1963 with a play by a young German author named Rolf Hochhuth, Der Stellvertreter (Thc Deputy) which was staged on Broadway in 1964.

It depicted Pacelli as a ruthless cynic, interested more in the Vatican's stockholdings than in the fate of the Jews. Most Catholics dismissed Hochhuth's thesis as implausible, but the play sparked a controversy which has raged to this day.

Disturbed by the anger brought out in that dinner altercation, and convinced, as I had always been, of Pius XII's innocence, I decided to write a new defense of his reputation for a younger generation. I believed that Pacelli's evident holiness was proof of his good faith. How could such a saintly pope have betrayed the Jews? But was it possible to find a new and conclusive approach to the issue? The arguments had so far focused mainly on his wartime conduct; however, Pacelli's Vatican career had started 40 years earlier. It seemed to me that a proper investigation into Pacelli's record would require a more extensive chronicle than any attempted in the past. So I applied for access to archival material in the Vatican, reassuring those who had charge of crucial documents that I was on the side of my subject. Six years earlier, in a book entitled A Thief in the Night, I had defended the Vatican against charges that Pope John Paul I had been murdered by his own aides.

Two key officials granted me access to secret material: depositions under oath gathered 30 years ago to support the process for Pacelli's canonization, and the archive of the Vatican Secretariat of State, the foreign office of the Holy See. I also drew on German sources relating to Pacelli's activities in Germany during the 1920s and 1930s, including his dealings with AdoIf Hitler in 1933. For months on end I ransacked Pacelli's files, which dated back to 1912, in a windowless dungeon beneath the Borgia Tower in Vatican City. Later I sat for several weeks in a dusty office in the Jesuit headquarters, close to St. Peter's Square in Rome, mulling over a thousand pages of transcribed testimony given under oath by those who had known Pacelli well during his lifetime, including his critics.

By the middle of 1997, 1 was in a state of moral shock. The material I had gathered amounted not to an exoneration but to an indictment more scandalous than Hochhuth's. The evidence was explosive. It showed for the first time that PaceIli was patently, and by the proof of his own words, anti-Jewish. It revealed that he had helped Hitler to power and at the same time undermined potential Catholic resistance in Germany. It showed that he had implicitly denied and trivialized the Holocaust, despite having reliable knowledge of its true extent. And, worse, that he was a hypocrite, for after the war he had retrospectively taken undue credit for speaking out boldly against the Nazi persecution of the Jews.


Look for yourself at Amazon Hitler's POPE the Secret History of Pius XII
 
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yedida

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I thank you for posting that article Lulav. It's always heartening, and easily digestable when the writer finds info unknown to him and foreign to his previous beliefs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he struggled with what he learned......
 
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Lulav

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From the Washington Post - The shocking untold story of Pope Pius XII that "redefines" the entire history of the twentieth century"

This may be why Visionary, that the Jews are reconsidering their former view of this Pope.

In Hitler's POPE, award-winning journalist John Cornwell shows that Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, was instrumental in negotiating an accord that helped the Nazis rise to unhindered power-and sealed the fate of the Jews in Europe.

In a new preface John Cornwell answers his critics and reaffirms his overall thesis that Pius XII, now moving toward beautification by the Vatican, weakened the Catholic Chruch in the eyes of the world with his endorsement of Hitler.

Drawing upon secret Vatican and Jesuit archives to which he had unprecedented access, Cornwell tells the full, tragic story of how narcissism, long-standing personal antipathy for the Jews, and political and spiritual ambition combined to make Pius the most dangerous churchman in history. Not just a firm and final indictment of Pius XII's papacy, Hitler's Pope is also a scaring exploration of its lingering consequences for the Catholic Church today.
 
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Lulav

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I thank you for posting that article Lulav. It's always heartening, and easily digestable when the writer finds info unknown to him and foreign to his previous beliefs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he struggled with what he learned......
As a Catholic from birth and previous defender of the Papacy and Vatican most publically, I would say that yes, He must have been quite shaken up. As he put it, after reading all these documents that were in the Vatican and the Jesuit Headquarters he was in a state of "Moral shock". I wonder how long he debated about keeping it to himself and rightfully sharing the truth with the world, especially in light of the time s(late 90's) when voices were arising denying that the Holocaust even happened.
 
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visionary

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From the Washington Post - The shocking untold story of Pope Pius XII that "redefines" the entire history of the twentieth century"

This may be why Visionary, that the Jews are reconsidering their former view of this Pope.

In Hitler's POPE, award-winning journalist John Cornwell shows that Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, was instrumental in negotiating an accord that helped the Nazis rise to unhindered power-and sealed the fate of the Jews in Europe.

In a new preface John Cornwell answers his critics and reaffirms his overall thesis that Pius XII, now moving toward beautification by the Vatican, weakened the Catholic Chruch in the eyes of the world with his endorsement of Hitler.

Drawing upon secret Vatican and Jesuit archives to which he had unprecedented access, Cornwell tells the full, tragic story of how narcissism, long-standing personal antipathy for the Jews, and political and spiritual ambition combined to make Pius the most dangerous churchman in history. Not just a firm and final indictment of Pius XII's papacy, Hitler's Pope is also a scaring exploration of its lingering consequences for the Catholic Church today.
surely the political and religious powers that be know that about Pius and thus would not sanction or acknowledge him a place of hero during the Hitler era for the Jews.
 
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Lulav

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Which would be why they are upset in Israel about Ratzenburger trying once again to push this through. It was tried before. Now it's been since 1999 that the original book was published (April 29, 2008 the new revised edition with the new forward I mentioned) So I guess that Benedict thinks enough time has passed and people soon forget...............
 
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Desert Rose

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That still does not explain why the Israel government today are responding now in this manner.

Sister, what would you like them to do though? I mean, we can be engaging in proverbial " eye- for-an-eye"ing each other until all Jews and all Catholics are blind, but sooner or later we have to forgive. Jewkilling suicide bombers are proclaimed saints in Islam as well,whats in it to Judaism? Islam and Christanity are both just fake cults to Jews, the first one being more violent, back in the day it was the other way around, btw..

Bottom line –we don’t know if Pope in question is saved. If God had mercy on him, and he indeed had a sin of harming Jews and assisting evil of Hitlerism , then he added much to Yeshua’s suffering, if not , then the boy will get his share of trouble paying for it. Either way, we have to learn to forgive eventually, the man is dead.

It wasn’t as much Christians as activist judges that managed to change the laws of USA to allow blacks to marry whites, or, to start out with, to get married, period , after all, livestock shouldn’t be allowed to have rights ,as the common view of Christian world of the day had it. Should blacks be forever hateful and don’t allow any respect to anyone who hurt em , from slaveowning presidents to ...etc?


We gotta let it go. But i understand , trust me – and if there was an issue to give sainthood to son of a gun John Paul II , I’d be doing what I can to raise hell, I cant forgive him cardinal Law and allowing coverup of child abuse. But I better, if i plan to grow spiritually....
 
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ContraMundum

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Sister, what would you like them to do though? I mean, we can be engaging in proverbial " eye- for-an-eye"ing each other until all Jews and all Catholics are blind, but sooner or later we have to forgive. Jewkilling suicide bombers are proclaimed saints in Islam as well,whats in it to Judaism? Islam and Christanity are both just fake cults to Jews, the first one being more violent, back in the day it was the other way around, btw..

Bottom line –we don’t know if Pope in question is saved. If God had mercy on him, and he indeed had a sin of harming Jews and assisting evil of Hitlerism , then he added much to Yeshua’s suffering, if not , then the boy will get his share of trouble paying for it. Either way, we have to learn to forgive eventually, the man is dead.

It wasn’t as much Christians as activist judges that managed to change the laws of USA to allow blacks to marry whites, or, to start out with, to get married, period , after all, livestock shouldn’t be allowed to have rights ,as the common view of Christian world of the day had it. Should blacks be forever hateful and don’t allow any respect to anyone who hurt em , from slaveowning presidents to ...etc?


We gotta let it go. But i understand , trust me – and if there was an issue to give sainthood to son of a gun John Paul II , I’d be doing what I can to raise hell, I cant forgive him cardinal Law and allowing coverup of child abuse. But Ii better.

Never a truer post on this forum. A sign of spiritual maturity is letting go.

No one is perfect, and this includes Popes. Some were dreadful, and one is left doubting their relationship with God and ultimately their salvation. However, you gotta let God worry about that.

I'm not convinced there is much spiritual merit in trying to lay blame at the feet of a Pope caught in a political nightmare (attempting to save his own flock from further persecution) for the hideous plans of a madman.

I really believe things happen for a reason, and these events did not happen for us to try to find a way to validate our religious prejudices (eg. be anti-Catholic, a common yet very boring disposition), but rather to call all mankind to repentance. No one is innocent.
 
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ContraMundum

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Which would be why they are upset in Israel about Ratzenburger trying once again to push this through. It was tried before. Now it's been since 1999 that the original book was published (April 29, 2008 the new revised edition with the new forward I mentioned) So I guess that Benedict thinks enough time has passed and people soon forget...............

That doesn't gel with any facts in the real world. Nothing is being "pushed through"
 
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Desert Rose

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......I really believe things happen for a reason, and these events did not happen for us to try to find a way to validate our religious prejudices (eg. be anti-Catholic, a common yet very boring disposition), but rather to call all mankind to repentance. No one is innocent.

thank you humbly for sharing the position. Indeed.
While the whole post-Shoah mentality is "Never Again", and we ought to not be sissies and be vigilant, we should know when to let go. Unforgiveness hurts the one who harbors it more then it hurts the object of his hate
Otherwise we grow old and bitter with nothing but regrets

( grandma's and grandpa's relationship comes to mind..ah.. not before bed..)
 
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ContraMundum

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thank you humbly for sharing the position. Indeed.
While the whole post-Shoah mentality is "Never Again", and we ought to not be sissies and be vigilant, we should know when to let go. Unforgiveness hurts the one who harbors it more then it hurts the object of his hate
Otherwise we grow old and bitter with nothing but regrets

( grandma's and grandpa's relationship comes to mind..ah.. not before bed..)
:cool::thumbsup:
 
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Lulav

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It's easy to find, cut and paste anti-Catholic stuff from the internet, isn't it kids?

Real research is waaaaaaaaay harder.

Sorry it's not to your liking, but I don't have access to the Vatican Library, do you?

It's easy to make condescending posts to someone when you don't agree.

If you want to call a Catholic writing about Catholic history, anti-catholic, you are entitled. This may have been copied from the internet but it is from a well acclaimed published work.
 
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Lulav

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thank you humbly for sharing the position. Indeed.
While the whole post-Shoah mentality is "Never Again", and we ought to not be sissies and be vigilant, we should know when to let go. Unforgiveness hurts the one who harbors it more then it hurts the object of his hate
Otherwise we grow old and bitter with nothing but regrets

( grandma's and grandpa's relationship comes to mind..ah.. not before bed..)

I agree with you Rose, but I will not stand by while anyone posts that someone who did what he did is exonerated.

My posts were only in response to the 'other POV' posted.

I have met Rose Price and understand what unforgiveness can do and how forgiveness can heal.
 
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Simon_Templar

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The idea that Pius XII was "Hitler's pope" has no real historical credence. It was popularized, not by historical scholarship, but by a book, written by a journalist. The entire idea basically came into existence as the result of a communist German playwrite in the 1960's


Here are some quotes from the man who was supposed to be Hitler's Pope...

After reading Mein Kampf he told fellow diplomats that Hilter was "obsessed" and was a new manifestation of the anti-christ.

Moved by Christian charity, the Holy See is obligated to protect the Jewish people against unjust vexations and, just as it reprobates all rancor and conflicts between peoples, it particularly condemns unreservedly hatred against the people once chosen by God; the hatred that goes by the name of anti-Semitism
- 1928 (before becoming Pope)

belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with Catholic conscience
-1930 (also before becoming Pope)

the church will never come to terms with Nazis as long as they persist in their racial philosophy
-1935

in 1939 he told the various archbishops that they should work to get their governments to take in Jewish refugees.

in 1941 the New York Times Christmas editorial praised Pius XII for placing "himself squarely against Hitlerism" and further said "the voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas"


Here is a link to a Jerusalem post article that bears on this topic
‘Hitler’s Pope saved 200,000 Jews’

There have actually been several different Jewish authors dating back to the 1960's (when the play which fueled this entire myth came out) defending Pius XII and actually lauding him as a great friend of the Jews.

Here is a list of those books...
A Question of Judgement by Joseph L. Lichten
Three Popes and the Jews by Pinchas Lapide
Hungarian Jewry and the Papacy: Pius XII did not remain silent by Jeno Levai
The Myth of Hitler’s Pope: How Pope Pius XII Rescued Jews from the Nazis by Rabbi David Dalin
 
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Simon_Templar

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Sorry it's not to your liking, but I don't have access to the Vatican Library, do you?

It's easy to make condescending posts to someone when you don't agree.

If you want to call a Catholic writing about Catholic history, anti-catholic, you are entitled. This may have been copied from the internet but it is from a well acclaimed published work.


John Cornwell isn't a Catholic. He's an ex-catholic who by his own admission used to like to toy with testing his student's faith.

He also based the bits you quoted on supposed secret vatican documents that only he has seen.

The funny thing about this whole debate is that the vast majority of Jewish scholarly opinion and published work overwhelmingly supports Pius XII.

You talk about "the other side" but you appearntly don't actually read the Jewish side.
 
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yedida

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I think I have to agree with DR. It's time to forgive and let it go. As far as officially making the man a saint - well, it seems he's already there, at least in the minds of those who count. And in the minds of those who don't count - it doesn't really matter. Saint or no saint, it doesn't matter what the world says, it matters what Hashem says, and we'll all find that out in the world to come. So, (as another Paul once said) let it be, there will be an answer let it be.
 
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ContraMundum

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Sorry it's not to your liking, but I don't have access to the Vatican Library, do you?

I could arrange it. I'd rate my chances a little higher than 50/50.

It's easy to make condescending posts to someone when you don't agree.

I don't think it's a matter of agreement. It's a matter of calling for fair assessment of the topic.

If you want to call a Catholic writing about Catholic history, anti-catholic, you are entitled. This may have been copied from the internet but it is from a well acclaimed published work.

No, it's from a problematic set of often-cited works that surface on occasion when someone wants to attack the Catholics- which I find dreadfully dishonest and boring. No one is perfect, and just because some find them to be "wrong" certainly doesn't make the detractor "right".

I have to agree with Ivy here but am inclined to add to it: you have not read the link I posted, never considered the other side of the story, and you probably never will.
 
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