Why?

[Reformationist]

I have a question about something that has confused me since the first time I heard it. Most, if not all, Christians will acknowledge that God knows all things that are ever going to happen. We call it God's attribute of Omniscience. With that in mind, I'd like to pose a question that some of you may be able to shed some light on for me. In a recent discussion about whether or not God created some people for the purpose of destruction I was told that "created for destruction" from Romans 9 means that from the beginning God knew that there would be vessels of His wrath but He went ahead and created them anyway. Here's where I get confused. I know that God knew there would be vessels of His wrath and I know that He went ahead and created those vessels who would be the objects of His wrath anyway. I take no issue with the idea that God created some people to be the vessels of His wrath. What I don't understand is why Christians say that this takes place as if God had no control over whether there would be vessels of His wrath. I fully believe God INTENDED for there to be vessels of His wrath. I believe the creation of objects of His wrath was no accident but rather the product of divine initiative. God is the Creator and it is He who decides how that creation will turn out. I know of no Christian who doesn't believe God is able to create a being totally free from sin or even a desire to sin. Most will say, "He's God. Of course He could do it."

For those of you who believe God never intended for these vessels to be "vessels of wrath created for destruction" but rather they just turned out that way, why do you believe He "went ahead and created them?"

Thanks for your input,
God bless

 

[Theresa]

Here's where I get confused. I know that God knew there would be vessels of His wrath and I know that He went ahead and created those vessels who would be the objects of His wrath anyway. I take no issue with the idea that God created some people to be the vessels of His wrath. What I don't understand is why Christians say that this takes place as if God had no control over whether there would be vessels of His wrath.

-this is just a mess. Because they become vessels of his wrath, and he knew that beforehand, that they would become so, does that mean he made them so?

I fully believe God INTENDED for there to be vessels of His wrath. I believe the creation of objects of His wrath was no accident but rather the product of divine initiative.

-that's just a matter of intepretation, as you know. You believe he intended that. He made them for the sole purpose of bieng a vessel of wrath.

God is the Creator and it is He who decides how that creation will turn out. I know of no Christian who doesn't believe God is able to create a being totally free from sin or even a desire to sin. Most will say, "He's God. Of course He could do it."

-that depends on many things. Yes, he could create a universe with no sin, no doubt. But this world has sin, so what is sin? Sin is a choice a free-being makes.


Hi Don!

 

[Benedicta00]

*Big long sigh, I'm really too tired to tackle this now*


You are right, 100% right he intended them to be vessels because he is God and God is all- knowing. We can not fathom God's existence where there is no time or space. He intends everything that has or will happen, due to His sovereign choice to allow what happens. If he allows something to happen and He is all-powerful to change it but don’t for what ever His reason, it then obviously means he intended it.

 

[Reformationist]

-this is just a mess.

What's a mess?

Because they become vessels of his wrath, and he knew that beforehand, that they would become so, does that mean he made them so?

No. Of course not. However, the Gospel says that they were prepared for that reason.

that's just a matter of intepretation, as you know. You believe he intended that. He made them for the sole purpose of bieng a vessel of wrath.

I don't believe that was the "sole" purpose of their creation but I do believe that was the destination that God intended for them.

that depends on many things. Yes, he could create a universe with no sin, no doubt. But this world has sin, so what is sin? Sin is a choice a free-being makes.

Okay. I agree. I just don't understand why people say that God knew some would be vessels of His wrath but went ahead and created them anyway as if He had no power to dictate whether or not they would be vessels of His wrath. Do you believe God to be arbitrary in creation as if He had no plan? Or ambivilant as if He did not care how His creation turned out?

Hi Don!

Hi Theresa!

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

*Big long sigh, I'm really too tired to tackle this now*

Not that I don't appreciate it, I do, but if you're really too tired to tackle this right now, why are you?

You are right, 100% right he intended them to be vessels because he is God and God is all- knowing. We can not fathom God's existence where there is no time or space. He intends everything that has or will happen, due to His sovereign choice to allow what happens. If he allows something to happen and He is all-powerful to change it but don?t for what ever His reason, it then obviously means he intended it.

Careful, this sounds like something I would say.

Have a good night,
God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

No. Of course not. However, the Gospel says that they were prepared for that reason

Becaue if you don't want mercy, you get justice.

 

[Reformationist]

Becaue if you don't want mercy, you get justice.

PREpared Michelle. Not POSTpared. If their fate was determined after their response or even based upon what God saw as their response then they weren't PREpared as vessels of wrath. They were created as vessels of wrath based on their response, which is not what the Gospel relays.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

PREpared Michelle. Not POSTpared. If their fate was determined after their response or even based upon what God saw as their response then they weren't PREpared as vessels of wrath. They were created as vessels of wrath based on their response, which is not what the Gospel relays.

God bless

The whole break down in why you ask why is there is no post or pre and middle or up or down, all is before God right now and he has the whole picture up there and we have just a piece down here. He made man in his image and likeness, that includes free will and he wanted us to be free to choose or reject, what is so hard to understand about that, I don’t know why he did it, but the bible says he did, so who am I to even ask why?

 

[Reformationist]

The whole break down in why you ask why is there is no post or pre and middle or up or down, all is before God right now and he has the whole picture up there and we have just a piece down here.

Just because God is eternal doesn't make you eternal. You and I and every other person are CREATED beings. That's means we have a beginning. That means there was a time when we weren't. There was a time before we existed. The fact that Scripture relays to us that some were PREpared as vessels of wrath for destruction and some were PREpared as vessels of mercy is significant and all you're doing is sidestepping it. The bottom line is that God's own Word tells us that some were fitted for destruction and your efforts to diminish the significance of that are irrational. It seems as if you're totally disregarding what Scripture clearly says just so you can say I'm wrong. Have you even consulted the teachings of your church on this issue? Are you sure that they don't intimate that some are created for the purpose of being the objects of God's wrath?

He made man in his image and likeness, that includes free will and he wanted us to be free to choose or reject

Your grammatical command of the English language never ceases to amaze me. It's tough enough to understand what you're saying with proper punctuation. Try using a period from time to time. It will surely help our discussions. As to God wanting us to be free to accept or reject the sacrifice He has put forth I will again ask you why? I am often told that it would be "unloving" of God to sovereignly ensure our place in His family by monergistically making our greatest desire be to obey Him. I am told it would violate our free will. I have to tell you I find this pridefully unreasonable. I know myself and how often I willingly and willfully sin and I can't imagine most people are much different. I know the teachings from the Bible of man's continued rebellious response to the revelation of God. I know how quickly and how often I make sinful responses to the temptations that I encounter. That, more than anything, causes me to wonder why in the world "free will" is such an important thing for so many to hold onto. It's as if so many people forget how often they fall into sin and end up thinking that, if given the chance to choose between eternal life with God and the pleasures of the flesh, they would choose God. Do you understand how often every one of us willingly and gladly disobey God and rightfully incur His wrath? You want your eternal disposition to be left up to one as wishy washy as yourself? Every time you sin you are telling God that His Law and His love are less important to you than your own sinful desires. Either way, I'm curious about something. You often like to compare the relationship of a human parent to their child with that of God to His creation, right? You have children, right? Answer me a question if you please. Let's say that your child desired to play with one of his/her toys while sitting in the middle of a busy freeway. Would you let him/her? If your answer is "no," as I hope it would be, why is it that you would violate his/her "free will?" Could it be that, just maybe, you know better than he/she does and you will take the precautionary steps to avoid letting him/her bring unrecoverable harm to his/herself EVEN IF THAT MEANS VIOLATING THEIR FREE WILL? Restraining your child from making a fatal mistake is an act of love in my opinion. According to your profession of God's relationship to His creation it seems as if you, and many others, believe that it is a loving act for God to merely warn you of the dangers you will encounter and do nothing more than encourage you to resist giving in to those temptations but do nothing to actually stop you from killing yourself, all for the sake of maintaining your "free will." Is that love to you? We're not talking about object lessons here Michelle. We're talking about everlasting damnation. What kind of parent would ever say, "Well, I really didn't want them to do that. I knew it was life threatening. I had the power to stop them but, BECAUSE I LOVE THEM SO MUCH, I let him/her make their own decision and kill themselves." How is that loving? You speak of neurotic. That is neurotic and unloving.

God bless

 

[Carico]

I totally agree that God hardens whom He wants to harden and has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. In Jeremiah 1: 3-5, God said, "before i formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born, I set you apart: I appointed you as a porphet before nations." We know that God's chose were with Him from the beginning. We also know that God allows satan to work together for His purposes. Therefore, it is by God's authority that people like Hitler were allowed to act out satan's desires. Jesus had already prophesied about the Jews in Matthew 23:35-36, "and so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blodd of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." God is allowing the persecution of the Jews because of their arrogance. Therefore, he will harden people's hearts in order that this may be accomplished.

 

[Reformationist]

I totally agree that God hardens whom He wants to harden and has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. In Jeremiah 1: 3-5, God said, "before i formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born, I set you apart: I appointed you as a porphet before nations." We know that God's chose were with Him from the beginning. We also know that God allows satan to work together for His purposes. Therefore, it is by God's authority that people like Hitler were allowed to act out satan's desires. Jesus had already prophesied about the Jews in Matthew 23:35-36, "and so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blodd of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." God is allowing the persecution of the Jews because of their arrogance. Therefore, he will harden people's hearts in order that this may be accomplished.

I agree completely. Nicely said.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Just because God is eternal doesn't make you eternal. You and I and every other person are CREATED beings.

Perhaps I used the wrong word. I meant immortal, in spirit. Do you agree with that?

That's means we have a beginning.

Agreed. But God doesn’t, so purely from His perspective He knew us before we were and he created us as we would be. Does that make sense?

That means there was a time when we weren't.

Agreed. But before we were, do you think he didn’t know us?

There was a time before we existed.

Yes, there was, but during that “time” do you think God did not know us? He is all-knowing, keep in mind, when you answer this.

The fact that Scripture relays to us that some were PREpared as vessels of wrath for destruction and some were PREpared as vessels of mercy is significant and all you're doing is sidestepping it.

No, I am not. Do you agree or disagree that there is no time with God? He does not see things in past, present and future tense. He knew us before we were and when he made us, he made us as he knew us. So therefore, he created, prepared vessels of wrath.

There is no way to put into words this concept because it is beyond yours or my comprehension. God created us, He prepared, He made us, and he knew us.

That is why there are those who he hardens as he wills, he knew and created them that way...the way he knew they would be.

He willed them to be that way, they way they are. I just can not explain this any better than that. I’m sorry if it is lacking but this is just more than my little brain can do.

Have you even consulted the teachings of your church on this issue? Are you sure that they don't intimate that some are created for the purpose of being the objects of God's wrath?

The Church condemns what you say as a heresy.

Trent:

Canon 17.
If anyone says that the grace of justification is shared by those only who are predestined to life, but that all others who are called are called indeed but receive not grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.


Here is the link if you want to read all 33 canons concerning justification.

http://www.americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent6.htm#2


All I can say is the we are made in his image and likeness, the main ways we are created like God: God is a Spirit being, so are we [not supreme though]. God, who is a Spirit, is immortal, so are our spirits. God has free will to love as he wills, SO DO WE.

You can not deny the bible says God knew us. He prepared us knowing who were, that we would be vessels of his wrath because HIS I can not stress enough, because of HIS sovereign choice is to, (certainly not our choice but HIS sovereign choice) IS to have us love freely.

As to God wanting us to be free to accept or reject the sacrifice He has put forth I will again ask you why?

He didn't decide that he was going to give us a choice in our being saved, that's not what free will means. Trent condemns this too.

Trent:

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

When he created us He created us liken to Himself, in His image and likeness.
God loves freely ... so do we. He will have mercy on who he wills and he will harden who he wills. We are the same in so much if we choose not to respond, love for love, he allow this hardening of our heart, thus he hardens our heart.

I am often told that it would be "unloving" of God to sovereignly ensure our place in His family by monergistically making our greatest desire be to obey Him.

Unloving in so much, love is not love if we can not give it of our own accord. He allows us to love freely because anything less than that, is really not true love.

His sovereign choice is for us to love Him from our own desire to do so. Not from him giving us the desire to do so.

I am told it would violate our free will.

In so much God can not contradict himself, he made us like Him, to love freely.

I have to tell you I find this pridefully unreasonable.

That does not come as news to me.

I know myself and how often I willingly and willfully sin and I can't imagine most people are much different.

That depends. Do you believe a person can overcome their vices? Did you know that it is we, our vices in life that makes us sin?

I know the teachings from the Bible of man's continued rebellious response to the revelation of God.

I'm not being funny here. What reference is this? Are you meaning your understanding of the unsaved rebelling? Or is the elect in constant rebelling? I don't think I am familiar with this reformed teaching so I need you to explain what you mean.

That, more than anything, causes me to wonder why in the world "free will" is such an important thing for so many to hold onto.

Because it is how God made us and it is the reason why we love are why we except love from others. Before I expound, please tell me why do you think you still sin after being saved.

It's as if so many people forget how often they fall into sin and end up thinking that, if given the chance to choose between eternal life with God and the pleasures of the flesh, they would choose God. Do you understand how often every one of us willingly and gladly disobey God and rightfully incur His wrath?

I am a disadvantage with understanding you because I do not know what you believe about the effect original sin has on us after we are re-born.

You want your eternal disposition to be left up to one as wishy washy as yourself?

Of course not, this is error to a Catholic.

We aren't by ourselves in this, we are not alone. God said that he will not leave us orphans, He is with us.

I can't do anything with out Him. That is precisely why we have grace and that is exactly what God's actual graces are there for us. They are there because it can not be left up to us in terms of salvation. The bible says, he chose us; we did not choose Him but we have to work this out with fear and trembling.

This is the only reason why us wishy washies can sin, repent, and repeat it all over again is because God is faithful, and he chose us, not us him.

Every time you sin you are telling God that His Law and His love are less important to you than your own sinful desires.

So wouldn’t that kill the life of grace if you did that? Isn’t that what killed the life of grace in Adam and Eve?

I agree with you in so much as we are aware we are. If you are aware of this, then this is exactly why we say you kill the divine life of grace in your soul. But because God chose us and not us Him, he receives us back through the call to repent but because we love freely, we must cooperate with this call. He chose us, we did not chose him. If we cooperate and respond to him, it is because he chose us, not us him.

Either way, I'm curious about something. You often like to compare the relationship of a human parent to their child with that of God to His creation, right?

No… I likened it in this instance to make my point, but I see a parallel, not a comparison with how He parents and how we are to parent.

Do you believe parenting children is the chief way our bodies were made in His image and likeness? Which incidentally would take us into the whole Birth Control issue.

You have children, right? Answer me a question if you please. Let's say that your child desired to play with one of his/her toys while sitting in the middle of a busy freeway. Would you let him/her?
If your answer is "no," as I hope it would be, why is it that you would violate his/her "free will?"

Free will is the power to choose between to opposites, so they are not in the street because they have free will, but I love him/her that is why I would get them out the street but there are a number of reason why I would besides that one.

Could it be that, just maybe, you know better than he/she does and you will take the precautionary steps to avoid letting him/her bring unrecoverable harm to his/herself EVEN IF THAT MEANS VIOLATING THEIR FREE WILL?

Do you really agree that they would be playing in the street because they have free will? That is not the correct meaning of free will in reference to this discussion. They are playing in the street due to their lack of reason due to them having this illness we call original sin, they have a darkened intellect, not because their making a choice to do this freely.

That is not anything remotely close to what having free will is. How can you choose to do something when you do not have sufficient knowledge what you are choosing to do?

I think the question is more like, if I saw my worst enemy’s child in the street, would I let him die in the street just because he was not my child? If I am all-good do I just let him die, because he is not my child? He may not have come from my lions so to speak but he is a fellow human being so are we really unrelated then? Do you see what I am trying to say? We are ALL God’s children, those who are in His family and those who are estranged. Although their is a love and bond with those HE adopted (we did not chose Him, He chose us) He still looks after the estranged with providence.

Another word I’d bet you'd say I do not know the definition of…Providence: “God in His love and care for us, divine guidance.”

Restraining your child from making a fatal mistake is an act of love in my opinion. According to your profession of God's relationship to His creation it seems as if you, and many others, believe that it is a loving act for God to merely warn you of the dangers you will encounter and do nothing more than encourage you to resist giving in to those temptations but do nothing to actually stop you from killing yourself, all for the sake of maintaining your "free will."

We do not necessarily disagree with this. However, we believe free will is the power to make a choice between the two opposites. A child in the street has no sufficient knowledge to make such choices.

Is that love to you? We're not talking about object lessons here Michelle. We're talking about everlasting damnation. What kind of parent would ever say, "Well, I really didn't want them to do that. I knew it was life threatening. I had the power to stop them but, BECAUSE I LOVE THEM SO MUCH, I let him/her make their own decision and kill themselves." How is that loving? You speak of neurotic. That is neurotic and unloving.

But can you stop your child if he has sufficient knowledge? What parent can stop their child from doing something crazy when they know the danger and choose it anyway?

He will find a way to go in the street if that is what he wants to do. Do you understand what I am getting at? Does that make me any less of a parent if he found a way to destroy his life? Did I not love him by giving him all I had?

 

[Crazy Liz]

I have a question about something that has confused me since the first time I heard it. Most, if not all, Christians will acknowledge that God knows all things that are ever going to happen. We call it God's attribute of Omniscience.

OK, I'm going to be the contrarian voice here. I don't think scripture establishes either that God knows every future event (although God can intervene and make things turn out as God chooses) nor that it establishes that God determines every future event. The scripture also does not teach that God creates vessels of wrath, destined before their creation for eternal torture.

With that in mind, I'd like to pose a question that some of you may be able to shed some light on for me. In a recent discussion about whether or not God created some people for the purpose of destruction I was told that "created for destruction" from Romans 9 means that from the beginning God knew that there would be vessels of His wrath but He went ahead and created them anyway.

Romans 9 says if God chose to create vessels of wrath, we would still have no right to find fault with God.

I don't think God created vessels of wrath with that intent. I think Paul was just making a hypothetical argument.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Perhaps I used the wrong word. I meant immortal, in spirit. Do you agree with that?

No.

Yes, there was, but during that “time” do you think God did not know us? He is all-knowing, keep in mind, when you answer this.

You are forcing an answer bsed on a premise that may not be true.

No, I am not. Do you agree or disagree that there is no time with God? He does not see things in past, present and future tense. He knew us before we were and when he made us, he made us as he knew us.

I don't think scripture unequivocally establishes this.

So therefore, he created, prepared vessels of wrath.

Since I don't think your premises are all correct, your conclusion is not proven.

 

[Phileo]

Scripture says God desires that NONE should perish and all should have eternal life. God never created anything to be destructive... He created all and then He deemed His creation to be good. Being all knowing even as He was creating Adam, He knew that Adam would fall... but why create him or any man when He knew that sin would come into the world?

Being that He is all knowing... He also made reparations for that... The Christ was from the beginning. God does not make our choices we do, but as any good parent He will make the opportunity for His children to make right choices.

One of the youth in my Ministry asked me, "Why does God tell us not to fornicate and He made sex. Plus He punishes you if you do it!"
I explain, "Being the Good parent that He is... He gave us a list of precautions. When He says don't fornicate He realizes the consequences of the probable act on your part... unwanted children, STDs, future promiscurity... etc. He knows that He gave the act of sexual intimacy as a gift for the married and when you indulge it is a misuse.
Therefore it is like the parent saying, "Son don't drive the car while I am out you have no license. Does the parent know that there could be a fatal consequence, that you may go to jail, you may cause all kinds of irreparable damages? He does and the choice is yours.

And my personal belief is that if God made people who were made to be destroyed, wouldn't Jesus' sacrifice on the cross be a waste? Are we to believed that he died for ALL or All minus a few vessels meant for destruction.

God leaves the choice to us:
Ephesians 1
12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

You can believe it and receive it and be saved or you can think about it and doubt it ... and be forever lost. Of course God knows who will and won't choose Christ... but He did not make it to be so. God desires that NONE should perish and all should have eternal life.

All of this is IMHO

 

[Benedicta00]

Phileo,

That was great, really. However, I know what Don is going to say now before he even says it. "So Christ died to save all men but all men won't be saved?"

Ain’t that right Don?

You know I'm just messing with you, don't you?

 

[Benedicta00]

No.

So you do not believe that you soul will live forever? Even if it is ******, it won't be forever ******?

You are forcing an answer bsed on a premise that may not be true.

As you and Reformationist.

I don't think scripture unequivocally establishes this.

But I do, so...

Since I don't think your premises are all correct, your conclusion is not proven.

Funny, I was thinking just that when I was reading reformationist's posts.

 

[Phileo]

LOL Shelb...

well any man who will not be saved, will be of his own volition and not that of a Loving and Merciful God!

BTW how are you doing today, I hope your day has been not too hectic!

 

[Miss Shelby]

For those of you who believe God never intended for these vessels to be "vessels of wrath created for destruction" but rather they just turned out that way, why do you believe He "went ahead and created them?"

Thanks for your input,
God bless

Hi Reformationist

I think this can be answered by taking the Bible as a whole about what God says on the matter of salvation. As you know I believe man has a responsibility in that. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that. I, then, have to interpret these verses to fit into that mold.

The Bible speaks of vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction and vessels of mercy prepared for glory. It is my opinion that God is long suffering and not wanting anyone to perish but all to come to repentance. 'All' in an aboslulte sense. I would have to conclude that the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction, were being fitted for destruction due to their own sin and it wasn't God who was doing it.

Why did he go ahead and create them anyway? I really don't know...same reason he created any of us.


Nice seeing you! Thanks for posting this because this is something that I have wanted to delve deeper into, but somehow I put it on the back burner. I'll post as time allows.



Michelle

P.s. I haven't read one word on this thread past your OP, will go back and do that now

 

[Miss Shelby]

edited because what I said didn't make any sense. I'll be back later.


Michelle