Why you don't commune children?

-Sasha- · May 2, 2019

Albion said:
You believe, I assume, that the sacrament gives grace for daily living, for decision making, for growth in the faith, etc. Think about it.

I believe, primarily, that partaking in communion heals us, in both soul and body. That it restores us to the proper relationship which was intended to exist between man and God..."That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one." That Christ mystically and truly comes to dwell in us through this sacrament... The aspects which you name are some parts of this, but not the whole thing.

Albion · May 2, 2019

The aspects which you name are some parts of this, but not the whole thing.

That's why I used the etc.

-Sasha- · May 2, 2019

Albion said:
That's why I used the etc.

Indeed. And while an infant may not need the grace of God for decision making and the like just yet, do they not still need to have this proper relationship with God, this "one-ness" for which humanity was intended?

Albion · May 2, 2019

-Sasha- said:
Indeed. And while an infant may not need the grace of God for decision making and the like just yet, do they not still need to have this proper relationship with God, this "one-ness" for which humanity was intended?

They have it in baptism.

-Sasha- · May 2, 2019

Albion said:
They have it in baptism.

Fair enough. I suppose I view it as being a sort of continuation of sacramental life which is begun at baptism.

Resha Caner · May 2, 2019

Albion said:
They have not reached the age of accountability, however.

I'm surprised to hear you say that.

I'm also a little surprised by some people's comments about needing the sacraments as opposed to being blessed by them.

-Sasha- · May 2, 2019

Resha Caner said:
I'm surprised to hear you say that.

I'm also a little surprised by some people's comments about needing the sacraments as opposed to being blessed by them.

I personally didn't intend for need to imply that it isn't a blessing. Just like my body needs food to survive but food received is a blessing from the Lord, my soul also needs spiritual food lest it should perish, and receiving it is a blessing. It is indeed a gift.

Resha Caner · May 2, 2019

-Sasha- said:
I personally didn't intend for need to imply that it isn't a blessing. Just like my body needs food to survive but food received is a blessing from the Lord, my soul also needs spiritual food lest it should perish, and receiving it is a blessing. It is indeed a gift.

A common question (and I assumed it was the same here) is whether the sacraments are required for salvation. That is the sense in which I used the word "need".

There is an admittedly odd dynamic within the Lutheran church where, when pressed, Lutheran pastors/theologians will concede they are not needed. But their actions indicate they think otherwise. As such, I know some of my friends and family will insist they are needed for salvation.

I don't believe they are, but part of the odd dynamic is a concern for those who don't partake. Why would someone refuse such a blessing? It does raise questions.

Resha Caner · May 2, 2019

With respect to the OP ... this:

Tree of Life said:
Communion requires self-examination (1 Corinthians 11:28).

-Sasha- · May 2, 2019

Resha Caner said:
A common question (and I assumed it was the same here) is whether the sacraments are required for salvation. That is the sense in which I used the word "need".

There is an admittedly odd dynamic within the Lutheran church where, when pressed, Lutheran pastors/theologians will concede they are not needed. But their actions indicate they think otherwise. As such, I know some of my friends and family will insist they are needed for salvation.

I don't believe they are, but part of the odd dynamic is a concern for those who don't partake. Why would someone refuse such a blessing? It does raise questions.

I don't feel quite qualified to state what is or isn't necessary for salvation, least of all what Lutherans believe about it. I suppose if pressed, I would say that God can offer salvation to some who have never stepped foot in a church before if He so wills. However I also believe that the sacraments help us become closer to Him.

Resha Caner · May 2, 2019

-Sasha- said:
I don't feel quite qualified to state what is or isn't necessary for salvation, least of all what Lutherans believe about it. I suppose if pressed, I would say that God can offer salvation to some who have never stepped foot in a church before if He so wills. However I also believe that the sacraments help us become closer to Him.

Sure. I only mentioned the Lutheran view because I'm Lutheran.

And the sacraments are certainly a blessing that brings faith and, thereby, salvation (1 Peter 3:21, John 6:48-51). But they are not necessary, as Hebrews 11 makes clear. Abraham was saved, yet he never participated in the Lord's Supper. He couldn't. It hadn't been instituted yet.

Jonaitis · May 2, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I would be interested in discussing that topic.

...because they don't commune with Christ savingly.

DamianWarS · May 3, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I would be interested in discussing that topic.

it's important to follow the culture of the body of believers you are a part of. since understanding and faith is obviously lacking among children it makes sense to wait until they increase, however, it also makes sense to have that understanding and faith develop while they are partaking. Both can be done responsibly but what isn't responsible is going against the grain of the community you are a part of. Unity is important and ideas are group directed not individualistic since we value the community and so we should remain in unity among them.

Not David · May 3, 2019

Most of the arguments here could be made on infant baptism.

FireDragon76 · May 3, 2019

DamianWarS said:
it's important to follow the culture of the body of believers you are a part of. since understanding and faith is obviously lacking among children it makes sense to wait until they increase, however, it also makes sense to have that understanding and faith develop while they are partaking. Both can be done responsibly but what isn't responsible is going against the grain of the community you are a part of. Unity is important and ideas are group directed not individualistic since we value the community and so we should remain in unity among them.

David Cabrera said:
Most of the arguments here could be made on infant baptism.

But as Damian points out, sometimes "doing church" isn't about trying to get it right but to hold together a community in love. Introducing practices that could be seen as scandalizing consciences isn't the way to do that, necessarily.

Resha Caner said:
A common question (and I assumed it was the same here) is whether the sacraments are required for salvation. That is the sense in which I used the word "need".

There is an admittedly odd dynamic within the Lutheran church where, when pressed, Lutheran pastors/theologians will concede they are not needed. But their actions indicate they think otherwise. As such, I know some of my friends and family will insist they are needed for salvation.

I don't believe they are, but part of the odd dynamic is a concern for those who don't partake. Why would someone refuse such a blessing? It does raise questions.

Yes, I think that's how we approach the issue. It's not entirely consistent but then that's part of being Lutheran.

I really think the Lutheran approach has echoes of Shin Buddhism: Faith is what saves you, the sacraments are in some sense just a working out of that notion in embodied ways, a "practice", not a condition of salvation. So the practices go from being an obligation to a gift. We aren't completely on the same page of course (that's a huge understatement), but it's closer than many other expressions of Christianity.

I also think your friends response is really authentically Lutheran as well. We don't insist on everything having clear answers in that way. There can be paradox and tensions and we just accept that as part of living in a fallen world.

Tree of Life · May 3, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Most of the arguments here could be made on infant baptism.

Not mine!

Albion · May 3, 2019

-Sasha- said:
Fair enough. I suppose I view it as being a sort of continuation of sacramental life which is begun at baptism.

Yes. And that is part of the reason my focusing on the matter of need (or not). But also, your church has Chrismation for that child, which Western churches do not have, so it would seem to me that you church has more than addressed any concern in that area.

FireDragon76 · May 3, 2019

Albion said:
Yes. And that is part of the reason my focusing on the matter of need (or not). But also, your church has Chrismation for that child, which Western churches do not have, so it would seem to me that you church has more than addressed any concern in that area.

Lutherans do chrismate at baptism, at least in my church, though we consider it an optional part of the baptismal rite and not a sacrament.

Albion · May 3, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Lutherans do chrismate at baptism, at least in my church, though we consider it an optional part of the baptismal rite and not a sacrament.

Right. The use of chrism in baptism is not unknown among Western churches, but it is not the equivalent of Confirmation.

FireDragon76 · May 3, 2019

Resha Caner said:
Sure. I only mentioned the Lutheran view because I'm Lutheran.

And the sacraments are certainly a blessing that brings faith and, thereby, salvation (1 Peter 3:21, John 6:48-51). But they are not necessary, as Hebrews 11 makes clear. Abraham was saved, yet he never participated in the Lord's Supper. He couldn't. It hadn't been instituted yet.

Abraham did have his own sort of sacraments with God, though. We shouldn't separate out faith from the sacraments to the point that we become just like every other evangelical that strips them of spiritual significance.

Why you don't commune children?

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