Why would we be thrown in the middle of a war?

[Anon91]

I do not identify as a Christian. I hardly identify as anything outside of the terminology of "Human Being."

With that being said, as a human being I am concerned with the current state of the world and where it is headed. Many people make correlations between the current state of the world and the scripture. I am not sure of what to believe.

However, I am outraged. It seems that the plague of humanity (in the context of religion) is the result of an endless war between good and evil or positive and negative. My question is simple. Why would we UNWILLINGLY be thrown into this war while being FORCED to choose a side in it? Apparently not choosing a side is indeed choosing a side.

Existence is painful enough without an ultimatum dressed in the illusion of free will.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You don't have to choose a side.

At least YHWH won't FORCE you to choose a side.

 

[SolomonVII]

If justice exists— that is, if the Creator of our world is a just being— then this entails that there be an 'afterworld' of some sort, for it is readily apparent that unfairness and injustice abound in this world.

If events in this world are random and outside of the purpose of a Creator, then there needs to be no reason why this state of affairs is so.
Only if there is a creator do the needs of justice require to be fulfilled as much in the world to come as in this one. If not, then there is no reason to expect justice here in the first place.
But either way, the task set before us is the same one; that is, to choose good over evil, to engage in the thankless task of bringing justice to any situation at hand.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

"Existence is painful" because of that conflict.

One side of the conflict wants to destroy you the other side of the conflict died for you so that you could live.

Seems like an easy choice to me.

 

[-57]

I do not identify as a Christian. I hardly identify as anything outside of the terminology of "Human Being."

OK. Fair enough.

With that being said, as a human being I am concerned with the current state of the world and where it is headed. Many people make correlations between the current state of the world and the scripture. I am not sure of what to believe.

Much can be said about the correlations between the current state of the world and the scripture. Scripture tells us where the world is headed. Problem is, it's hard to figure out.

However, I am outraged. It seems that the plague of humanity (in the context of religion) is the result of an endless war between good and evil or positive and negative. My question is simple. Why would we UNWILLINGLY be thrown into this war while being FORCED to choose a side in it? Apparently not choosing a side is indeed choosing a side.

Is it a result of war? Perhaps....but to place a beginning we have to go back to the beginning. Adam fell. The result of the fall can be felt and seen everywhere. Keep in mind the "war" as you pt it, isn't endless.

I suppose we can "UNWILLINGLY be thrown in"....but then again we don't choose our parents or when we'll be born.

Are we forced to choose a side? You're kinda right....we default to one side. As people the Bible tells us we all stand condemned. You can read John 3:18 if you choose to.

Existence is painful enough without an ultimatum dressed in the illusion of free will.

I can see where you're coming from, but, I might explain it a bit different than you do when I take a Biblical approach to the question rather than a philosophical view.

 

[Halbhh]

Well, nature, life in nature, is quite often a state of war, just by observation we can see.

I think we are here, in the natural world, as souls having a chance to learn to do these:

"Love one another"

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"

"Forgive seventy times seven times"

"Love your enemies"

These come from a certain teacher, the most famous of all, and you can search Him up, or better, read an account of His words and deeds in one of the Gospels about the Christ.

He did more than teach us the greatest truths of all, but He made open a way to rescue us from even our own wrongs, and bring us into the only Life that is really good in a total way. There's no ultimatum. If we reject the Good He offers, we merely suffer what I call a form of the 'fate of nature' -- death. The "second death" is merely to perish in an eternal way, just as atheists think we do in natural death.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only if there is a creator do the needs of justice require to be fulfilled as much in the world to come as in this one. If not, then there is no reason to expect justice here in the first place.

From all that Jesus says in Scripture,
there is no hope for justice , no reason to expect justice,
in society here on earth. He calls society pernicious(death dealing), and says that all the world leaders commit spiritual fornication with the beast, and that the whole world is deceived so much, they refuse to repent of worshiping (serving) demons.

 

[John 1720]

I do not identify as a Christian. I hardly identify as anything outside of the terminology of "Human Being."

With that being said, as a human being I am concerned with the current state of the world and where it is headed. Many people make correlations between the current state of the world and the scripture. I am not sure of what to believe.

However, I am outraged. It seems that the plague of humanity (in the context of religion) is the result of an endless war between good and evil or positive and negative. My question is simple. Why would we UNWILLINGLY be thrown into this war while being FORCED to choose a side in it? Apparently not choosing a side is indeed choosing a side.

Existence is painful enough without an ultimatum dressed in the illusion of free will.

Why should that surprise you? There are only two poles to the magnet and the forces will either repel or attract depending on your alignment
I'm sure you have heard variants of the below

• All that is necessary to guarantee the triumph of evil is for men of conscience to do nothing about it.

While anything can be counterfeited, I believe the Gospel given by Jesus has been proven to have impacted this temporal world for the good wherever it has gone and provided us an eternal hope which is farther reaching than anything we can conceive of in our short existence of worldly focus.

 

[paul1149]

However, I am outraged. It seems that the plague of humanity (in the context of religion) is the result of an endless war between good and evil or positive and negative. My question is simple. Why would we UNWILLINGLY be thrown into this war while being FORCED to choose a side in it? Apparently not choosing a side is indeed choosing a side.

The reason is mercy. God could have walked away when man broke covenant with Him. Instead, He hung around, eventually making provision for our return. This is essentially the Gospel. Our father Adam sinned and brought this woe on us. God is His love went way beyond what is necessary in order to bring us back (Jn 3.16).

True, we did not ask for this. We were held captive by sin and its consequence, death. But it is what it is, and nothing anyone is going to do will change it. What remains is for each one to decide where he wants to be. God offers eternal life, far beyond even what Adam experienced. The alternative is death. And also true, once you know, it is incumbent upon you to make the choice. It is not automatic.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I do not identify as a Christian. I hardly identify as anything outside of the terminology of "Human Being."

With that being said, as a human being I am concerned with the current state of the world and where it is headed. Many people make correlations between the current state of the world and the scripture. I am not sure of what to believe.

However, I am outraged. It seems that the plague of humanity (in the context of religion) is the result of an endless war between good and evil or positive and negative. My question is simple. Why would we UNWILLINGLY be thrown into this war while being FORCED to choose a side in it? Apparently not choosing a side is indeed choosing a side.

Existence is painful enough without an ultimatum dressed in the illusion of free will.

The notion that the universe is a battleground between the cosmic forces of good and evil is a Zoroastrian idea, in Zoroastrianism there are two cosmic principles, Ahura Mazda the good and wise lord, and Angra Mainyu the destructive or malign spirit. The human being is placed in this world, and is caught between these two forces, good and evil, either the side of Ahura Mazda or the side of Angra Mainyu; ultimately Ahura Mazda will prevail and will judge the world with fire, the earth will be flooded with molten metal, the wicked shall be consumed but the righteous will wade through it "as though through warm milk" (according to Zoroastrian texts).

This dualistic view is rejected in Christianity. In traditional, orthodox Christian thought evil does not have an objective existence itself; the fathers of the Church frequently described evil as the absence or the deprivation of good, making analogy to darkness as the absence or deprivation of light. God is good, and goodness has real existence, evil only exists insofar as there is a deprivation, absence, or malformation of the good. The devil is not God's opposite, the devil is only a creature, a fallen creature, but still only a creature; the devil is not the cause or source of evil as evil, again, is not itself a thing. The devil is evil in the same way that any other creature can be evil, by the deprivation, absence, or malformation of the good; depriving oneself of the life-giving good of God is to, as it were, avoid the light and seek to hide in shadow.

Human beings are not thrown into a world in which they choose sides in some great cosmic battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, as though there is some great war between God and Satan. From the Christian position there is no "war" to speak of, God already is victorious, there has never been any contest (the use of battle language does exist, but not in the sense of a great cosmic battle between equal opposites). Creation is not a battleground between good and evil, creation is God's good creation which He intends to bring to His intended purpose, in the beginning having declared all which He made "exceedingly good" and making good on His promise. Though creation has been beset by the tyranny of sin, death, hell, and the devil God already purposed to redeem and save creation through Jesus Christ, which He has done, is doing, and will continue to do until the last day when Christ returns, the dead are raised, and God makes all things new. Victory has already been accomplished, Christ is risen from the dead and in Him is the victory of life over death and sin for all creation.

There will be those who will, in the end, insist on death rather than life, St. John of Patmos describes this tragic reality using the intense graphic imagery of a lake burning with fire and sulfur calling it "the second death"; but this isn't God's will or God's purpose for anyone. God's will and God's purpose is life, to exist, and for His creatures to share in His life, His love, and His glory forever.

This isn't about a battle between good and evil. This is about the reality of God's redemption and salvation breaking into the world through Jesus Christ, of God in His mercy and love breaking in to redeem the whole of creation. C.S. Lewis, I think, says it best when he writes, "In the end there are only two types of people, those who say to God, 'Your will be done' and those to whom God says, 'Your will be done.'" God's will is that we live, and share in the joy of life which is in and with Him; damnation is only and ever our will, our desire to stubbornly cling to the misery of death.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Anon91]

Fair enough.

How would I know that Christianity is the religion of religions? The parameters of Jesus Christ are seen throughout all religions. Krishna, Buddah... all correlating back to Horus.

The challenge of religion is finding the truth in concepts that are diverse, but EXTREMELY similar at the core. I chose logic due to uncertainty.... Not necessarily out of defiance.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Fair enough.

How would I know that Christianity is the religion of religions? The parameters of Jesus Christ are seen throughout all religions. Krishna, Buddah... all correlating back to Horus.

Look hard enough and you can find similarity and correlation between just about anything. But suffice to say if you're approaching this from the Mythicist angle, it falls short. Like, for example, if you heard that Krishna, Siddhartha, and Horus were all born of virgins, or died/rose from the dead then you were simply misinformed--these claims exist on the internet and in poorly researched and resourced books, but it takes little more than a simple Google search to realize there's no substance behind such claims. To offer just one example, it's often said that Buddha was born of a virgin, except that the stories concerning the Buddha have him as Prince Siddhartha, the natural born son of King Suddhodana and Queen Maya. In the case of Horus (who is also sometimes claimed to be virgin-born, often claiming that Isis was revered as "the virgin mother") well Horus' conception was a bit more interesting, in that Isis became pregnant with Horus by copulating with the reassembled corpse of her husband Osiris using a magical artificial phallus (Osiris' real phallus was never recovered after Set dismembered him and scattered his body parts across Egypt).

The challenge of religion is finding the truth in concepts that are diverse, but EXTREMELY similar at the core. I chose logic due to uncertainty.... Not necessarily out of defiance.

If you're looking for the be-all, end-all argument that's going to be all, "Ah, at least, the veritable truth of truths!" I don't think you'll find it. I'm not going to try and sell you my religion as though I have all the answers (or as though Christianity has all the answers), or as though I have the best arguments.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Anon91]

If events in this world are random and outside of the purpose of a Creator, then there needs to be no reason why this state of affairs is so.

I have to challenge this line of logic. Without purpose, wouldn't there be more of a desire for man (an intelligent being foundationally based upon pattern recognition) to create order within disorder? The bias of order naturally creates a system of justice against disorder.

 

[Anon91]

Look hard enough and you can find similarity and correlation between about anything.



If you're looking for the be-all, end-all argument that's going to be all, "Ah, at least, the veritable truth of truths!" I don't think you'll find it. I'm not going to try and sell you my religion as though I have all the answers (or as though Christianity has all the answers), or as though I have the best arguments.

-CryptoLutheran

I am not asking that of you. I am simply trying to understand fundamental ideas here. I apologize if I have sparked offense.

I do seek truth. However, I did not come here with my hand out.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

You don't have to choose a side.

At least YHWH won't FORCE you to choose a side.

He vomits you out of His mouth if you are lukewarm...

It is still a sort of an imposed choice.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He vomits you out of His mouth if you are lukewarm....

No, that's not an accurate recounting (it's not accurate as to who YHWH is talking to, nor who YHWH is talking about.)

Try again.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

No, that's not an accurate recounting (it's not accurate as to who YHWH is talking to, nor who YHWH is talking about.)

Try again.

I like what you generally say, but everyone must make a choice. You are forced to make a choice, because no choice at all leads to the same consequence as making the wrong choice.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. - Joshua 25:15
​

It was Joshua speaking to the Hebrews: the successor of Moses. I wasn't arguing He forces us to love Him, I am saying He does, in fact, force us to make a choice. It is a militaristic dilemma that is simply commonplace: for us, or against us.


You are a slave no matter which direction you go. You can either accept that you are a literal slave of one side, or another. Or, you can be a slave to ignorance for the sake of your sanity; many people like that type of servitude.

But, we are all SLAVES. Slaves have no choice; they are there to obey. God has already bought a bunch of slaves, and made them His slaves. His "yoke" may be much easier than any other gods' yoke, but you are still a slave. No choice of your own (unless you are choosing to be a slave to ego; you are undoubtedly always a slave.)


Love naturally follows from, or diverges against ones decision, but the choice is the foundation. We can say "God doesn't force us to make choices about who we serve" to make ourselves feel better, but then you get strange, unscriptural doctrine like how God doesn't put more on us than we can handle.

We all *must* make a choice, and making no choice is still a choice.

 

[SolomonVII]

I have to challenge this line of logic. Without purpose, wouldn't there be more of a desire for man (an intelligent being foundationally based upon pattern recognition) to create order within disorder? The bias of order naturally creates a system of justice against disorder.

I an not sure that you understood that part of my reply.
I an not saying that would be no desire to create order. I am not saying that there is not any desire for justice. I am saying the opposite in fact.

What I am saying is that there is no reason to expect justice in a world created in such a manner. Indeed, Christians do not expect justice in this world either, which is the more difficult position to maintain. But others here have given adequate enough reason for holding this position, so there is no need for me to repeat what has already been said in that regard.

But in fact, in terms of rationality and logic and the nature of mankind, whether one believes in a Creator or not, there is every reason to work toward the world in which justice comes to the fore.
The task for us all does not change either way.