Archaeopteryx
Wanderer
So the only way to know him and have a relationship with him is to either obey or to suffer all manner of cruelties? That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship at all.
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Yes, obeying, but they didn't do that.
Is there no way of knowing him apart from suffering? What sort of sadist would design a system in which the only way to know them and form a relationship with them is to be subjected to all manner of cruelties?
Is there no other way to train character? Does all suffering train character?
Doesn't this apply to God also? He abandoned Job to the cruelties of Satan whom he allowed to torment him, so I guess he was never his friend to begin with.
Eh, you clearly don't know what "jealous" means. First, God is jealous because He knows He made you therefore it is right that you should receive and reciprocate His love. How is that any indication of pride when you yourself also desire the same from the woman of your dreams?
Your flawed logic never fails to amaze me. I raised that point for a fellow Christian to contemplate the fact that God allows suffering not because He desires His people to suffer, but because He knows out of it can come goodness. Stop trying to detract my point with your false accusations against God, it is pretty rude imo.
It is a proven fact that out of adversity comes good character. I have yet to see the same conclusion drawn from a life of prosperity. Or do you have any idea in mind? If you don't, then you have no right to accuse God.
Did you even read the conclusion of the book of Job? God not only appeared to Job in an audible voice, He restituted everything Job lost many times over and gave him a long life. How is that abandonment of Job?
It's an inescapable conclusion, the fall of man is a direct consequence of adam and eve learning about good and evil, and God must have known that since he laid out the punishment.
If he wanted them to know good and evil, then it necessarily follows that he must have intended for the world to fall as it did. He played a direct role in it.
So the only way to know him and have a relationship with him is to either obey or to suffer all manner of cruelties? That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship at all.
I notice you didn't bother to address the question.
He restituted it all, meaning that he resurrected Job's slain family? Or were their deaths just a "character-building" exercise for Job?
That is a flawed conclusion. God issued a clear directive in the beginning what the forbidden fruit does, so Adam and Eve could not have been totally ignorant of the consequences. In fact, if God wanted them to fall, He would not have given such a clear directive about that fruit.
Clearly, His intention was not for them to fall, but He was aware of the possibility and prepared beforehand a salvation.
He did not play a direct role in the fall like you falsely claim.
why would an all powerful being not just remove the devil?If there was no devil it would be easier I think, but since he's there the only thing you have to obey is: keep away from him and sin.
It's like a parent that tells a kid not to take candy from a stranger and just obey. If you know the parent obeying isn't that hard. Some weirdo's tried to teach a kid this that was too innocent and kidnapped him. There is no other way with someone who's innocent and not innocent means that you sinned.
And then mankind would never have sinned? Satan didn't have a forbidden tree or a tempter, yet he sinned and could never be reconciled.If he didn't want them to fail he never should have placed the forbidden fruit within their reach in the first place. He already knew the outcome in advance.
I do agree that suffering keeps us humble and reliant on God and that prosperity can lead to pride. I'm not questioning the purpose or good that can come from suffering when it produces a deeper faith or helps us see the needs of others and teaches us compassion or perseverance. What I have trouble with is why does God withdraw in our darkest hours - like I mentioned with my friend who was dying and in my own life. I'v had times of depression and despair when I literally cried out to God - not to take away my difficulties, but to just give me His comfort - an awareness that He was there, by my side. And I often wonder about Job. Would he still have faith if he knew his whole ordeal was really a wager between God and Satan? And then when He asks God for an explanation, it seems God gets irritated by his questioning. It's not like Job just lost his position in society or his wealth. When those things were taken, he accepted it - God gives and He takes away. It wasn't until he lost his family that he fell into an ash heap and really began to mourn and despair and it only got worse the more he sought after God. Doesn't God promise that those who earnestly seek Him will find Him? It just seems that promises like this that God makes in His Word, aren't always kept by Him. How can I count on any of His promises if He doesn't consistently keep them?
If he didn't want them to fail he never should have placed the forbidden fruit within their reach in the first place. He already knew the outcome in advance.
He wasn't just aware of the possibility. He was aware of the outcome. That's what omniscience entails.
He created Satan knowing that he would tempt Adam and Eve, created Adam and Eve knowing that they would interact with this creature, and placed the tree within their midst knowing that they would eat from it. That seems fairly direct. He wasn't a naive bystander.
You have a flawed understanding of what perfection means. God created a perfect world where free will exist. Therefore, perfection does not mean inability for corruption, it simply means God has made His created beings completely capable of being sinless. Was satan capable of being a sinless angel when God made him? Yes. Was Adam and Eve capable of being sinless when God made them? Yes. But by their free will, they choose to sin.
why?
why?
anyone who reads the bible will pick up that foresight isnt god's great strong point. that aside why wait? he could do it right now.What do you mean by "removing the devil"? Did the Bible not say that eventually the devil will be put away (removed) in the lake of fire?
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