Why would an atheist come to Christ, if not to avoid hell?

[JGG]

Ah ok, got it. It is interesting to note in Genesis 1: "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;". It seems to imply that in the beginning God did in fact express Himself to Himself through Himself, but the word "us" must have meant He had company. It's difficult to get one's mind around. The bible certainly does promote thought.

Having been on this forum as long as I have, I'm not entirely sure that's true.

That's an interesting way to think! Do you believe it is true? Or do you think the absence of creativity is nothing?

No I don't believe it's true. Believing would require understanding, and I don't understand it. What I'm saying is that one cannot claim their deity to be infinite and limitless, and then limit that deity with finite characteristics.

Good for you. I hope you question God one of these days.

I questioned God many years ago.

It means that Mary was a virgin who found herself with child. God raised His hand and took the credit. How she became fertilized is beyond me but since I believe God created life I don't believe it is too hard for Him to fertilize her.

I know that part too. What I'm asking is "what does it mean to be the human embodiment of God's spiritual word?"

So, are you saying that you once believed the ideas that your church had fed you, but you had never actually been grateful to God for anything?

I did once. Not anymore. There came a point where I realized that I would thank God for good things that happened, but would not blame God for bad things. When my friend killed himself, I didn't blame God, I blamed my friend, and the people who pushed him to do it (including myself). When I was excommunicated and abandoned, I didn't blame God, I blamed my family, and my congregation. When my wife was diagnosed with cancer I didn't blame God, I blamed the randomness of life. When I realized that bad things just happen to good people because that stuff happens, and couldn't blame God, I realized that I could no longer give God credit for the good things either. Somewhere in that eight year period, I stopped.

Well in honesty I can say that the bible does teach this. Romans 9 discusses it.

Not sure what that means.

Well, since the thread is about atheists, let's assume that what the writers of the Bible believed doesn't hold much weight.

I don't see it that way. Perhaps my heart is hardened.

How is the sanctity of marriage of more benefit than the sanctity of monogamy?

I am trying to engage you to think of what Christ is. That is important to establish before you can expect to comprehend the answer to your question.

Just an idea. An ideal.

 

[oi_antz]

Having been on this forum as long as I have, I'm not entirely sure that's true.

No I don't believe it's true. Believing would require understanding, and I don't understand it. What I'm saying is that one cannot claim their deity to be infinite and limitless, and then limit that deity with finite characteristics.

I questioned God many years ago.

I know that part too. What I'm asking is "what does it mean to be the human embodiment of God's spiritual word?"

26 Jesus responded, “Why are you afraid? You have so little faith!” Then he got up and rebuked the wind and waves, and suddenly there was a great calm.

27 The disciples were amazed. “Who is this man?” they asked. “Even the winds and waves obey him!”

I did once. Not anymore. There came a point where I realized that I would thank God for good things that happened, but would not blame God for bad things. When my friend killed himself, I didn't blame God, I blamed my friend, and the people who pushed him to do it (including myself). When I was excommunicated and abandoned, I didn't blame God, I blamed my family, and my congregation. When my wife was diagnosed with cancer I didn't blame God, I blamed the randomness of life. When I realized that bad things just happen to good people because that stuff happens, and couldn't blame God, I realized that I could no longer give God credit for the good things either. Somewhere in that eight year period, I stopped.

Hmmm, you have experienced a lot of trauma. Just be aware that He can comfort you when you are ready to receive it.

Well, since the thread is about atheists, let's assume that what the writers of the Bible believed doesn't hold much weight.

Is it not equally as much about Christ?

How is the sanctity of marriage of more benefit than the sanctity of monogamy?

I actually don't know, that confuses me.

Just an idea. An ideal.

Quite right, but what is important is for you to understand that idea well enough that you will understand why an atheist might want to accept it.

 

[Darla1215]

"If Hell is not eternal and not a place of punishment eternally, then Jesus dying on the cross was in vain. There was no reason for Him to take away the sins of the world.

Why then would an atheist come to Christ if there was no punishment, no penalty for breaking God's law?"

This is a question among many, put forth by a Christian elsewhere on the board.

Discuss...

Hell is not an eternal place of punishment according to God's word friend. We can only have immortality through Jesus. People don't willingly choose hell. People choose sin! On Judgement Day, God is going to judge people. He is going to do one of two things, grant eternal life or destroy them in the lake of fire. The wages of sin is death, not eternal concious torture. The bottom line is that this sadistic doctrine of perpetual conscious suffering is absolutely inconsistent with the just, loving, moral character of our Almighty Creator as revealed in the bible. Condemned people who sinfully reject God’s love in Christ are cast into hell. They chose sin, and the lake of fire, is where they will reap the unfortunate wages of their choice – death. Yes, there will be a period of suffering as divine justice properly dictates for each individual – perhaps a split second, perhaps longer – but any such suffering will mercifully end in the ultimate just punishment, namely everlasting total extermination with no hope of resurrection.

In regards to utter extinction in hell not being severe enough, how much severer should it justly be? How much severer does it need to be?
Just imagine how it will be on judgment day for those people who foolishly reject God: They’ll have to stand before the Almighty, who will judge their entire lives, and condemn them to death in the lake of fire – an annihilation so utterly complete that it will be as if they had never existed (see Obadiah 16). Then they’ll be removed from His presence and cast into a vast, consuming lake of fire. Can you imagine the depression, shame, guilt and torment of being rejected by the very Creator of the universe who has judged your life so completely worthless that you must be absolutely snuffed out of existence and memory? Can you imagine being led to a vast, dreadful lake of fire, standing at its edge, knowing that this is it – your life’s going to be blotted out and there’s absolutely no hope of resurrection, restoration or recovery? And then, finally, the torment and pain experienced when cast into the fire – suffering that will last precisely as long as God’s justice requires.

 

[Timothew]

Why would an atheist come to Christ, if not to avoid hell?

To gain eternal life?

 

[ElijahW]

Which one is saying that you will be rewarded with heaven if you believe?

Jesus would be who said that, I guess, but he isn't creating or has any control over the situation of reward and punishment, he is just letting the people know the consequence of their behavior in that particular situation. If you want to understand that as coercion then you have to understand all education or informing people of consequence as coercion, and in that case the word no longer has any negative connotation.

 

[JGG]

Jesus would be who said that, I guess, but he isn't creating or has any control over the situation of reward and punishment, he is just letting the people know the consequence of their behavior in that particular situation. If you want to understand that as coercion then you have to understand all education or informing people of consequence as coercion, and in that case the word no longer has any negative connotation.

So, infinite, limitless, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful God, who created all that is, did not create nor does he have control over reward or punishment? That's a little confusing...

 

[JGG]

Hell is not an eternal place of punishment according to God's word friend. We can only have immortality through Jesus. People don't willingly choose hell. People choose sin! On Judgement Day, God is going to judge people. He is going to do one of two things, grant eternal life or destroy them in the lake of fire. The wages of sin is death, not eternal concious torture. The bottom line is that this sadistic doctrine of perpetual conscious suffering is absolutely inconsistent with the just, loving, moral character of our Almighty Creator as revealed in the bible. Condemned people who sinfully reject God’s love in Christ are cast into hell. They chose sin, and the lake of fire, is where they will reap the unfortunate wages of their choice – death. Yes, there will be a period of suffering as divine justice properly dictates for each individual – perhaps a split second, perhaps longer – but any such suffering will mercifully end in the ultimate just punishment, namely everlasting total extermination with no hope of resurrection.

In regards to utter extinction in hell not being severe enough, how much severer should it justly be? How much severer does it need to be?
Just imagine how it will be on judgment day for those people who foolishly reject God: They’ll have to stand before the Almighty, who will judge their entire lives, and condemn them to death in the lake of fire – an annihilation so utterly complete that it will be as if they had never existed (see Obadiah 16). Then they’ll be removed from His presence and cast into a vast, consuming lake of fire. Can you imagine the depression, shame, guilt and torment of being rejected by the very Creator of the universe who has judged your life so completely worthless that you must be absolutely snuffed out of existence and memory? Can you imagine being led to a vast, dreadful lake of fire, standing at its edge, knowing that this is it – your life’s going to be blotted out and there’s absolutely no hope of resurrection, restoration or recovery? And then, finally, the torment and pain experienced when cast into the fire – suffering that will last precisely as long as God’s justice requires.

So, why would an atheist come to Christ if not for all that?

 

[JGG]

To gain eternal life?

I expect that when I die I will cease to exist. I'm kind of content with that. I don't particularly want eternal life, and I certainly don't need it.

 

[ElijahW]

So, infinite, limitless, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful God, who created all that is, did not create nor does he have control over reward or punishment? That's a little confusing...

If you are working with an anthropomorphic understanding of God, then yes it can be confusing on why he doesn't live up to the expectations of your imagination. Start to understand God rationally, and not based on what you've seen on television or from taking mythological representations literal, then it isn't confusing because it isn't a guy in the sky pulling levers but a spiritual constant whose activity produces the universe we experience.

 

[JGG]

If you are working with an anthropomorphic understanding of God, then yes it can be confusing on why he doesn't live up to the expectations of your imagination. Start to understand God rationally, and not based on what you've seen on television or from taking mythological representations literal, then it isn't confusing because it isn't a guy in the sky pulling levers but a spiritual constant whose activity produces the universe we experience.

Do you think you can demonstrate a rational God? Are you suggesting that the creator of the universe is not limitless?

 

[Timothew]

I expect that when I die I will cease to exist. I'm kind of content with that. I don't particularly want eternal life, and I certainly don't need it.

I respect you for that.

 

[rturner76]

Regardless of eternal life the Beattitudes are an awesome lifestyle to emulate. An atheist could do worse than practice meekness and be a peacemaker etc.

 

[JGG]

Regardless of eternal life the Beattitudes are an awesome lifestyle to emulate. An atheist could do worse than practice meekness and be a peacemaker etc.

I would hardly characerize christians as meek or peacemakers. On top of that, I've met Taoist monks who are meek and peaceful, but that has nothing to do with Christ.

 

[rturner76]

Why would some backward Christian's journey dictate how you relate to the beattitudes? Does that make them less applicable to one's life? Also, dies Buddhism make the Beattitudes less applicable? I didn't say "Please become an average Christian" I said these principles can be applicable to an atheists life no?

 

[LittleFish31617]

OK, I'll bite.

First, a bit of background. I'm 45, and only very recently have I fully accepted Christ.

While I was baptized as a babe, and went to Sunday school for a few years, my folks left the church when I was young, and for all intents and purposes was brought up in an atheist household.

During the course of my life, I "dabbled" in spirituality, but it never really stuck.

Half a decade ago, I married into a Lutheran family. My in-laws are of deep faith, and extremely active in their church, but they tend to proselytize by the way they live, not by preaching at people.

A few years back, then, I really started to feel the pull (if that makes sense), and began to really read scripture. However, I was up against my upbringing and somewhat ingrained biases. I knew where I wanted to go, but for a long time, I didn't have the courage to accept Christ, to admit my mistakes, to allow him to wash the sin away. But I knew (even if at first I didn't have the words for it) that I wanted to acquire the faith that would allow for the possibility of grace.

So - why does an atheist come to God?

Well, I suppose one could argue that it is God who comes to the atheist; that God unhardens the heart to hear the Word. And this I think would be true.

Or one could argue that it is perhaps of other's prayers. And this too would have a certain truth to it.

Or one could argue that one feels something lacking that one observes in others, and wants to be a part of it. And this too would be true.

Or one could see the universe, have a decent understanding of science, and realize that nature cannot explain itself. And again this too would be true.

And of course, one could realize that the voice one has been hearing (and too often ignoring) is the oh-so-quiet silent whisper of Christ. And finally, this too is true.

So - it's not a simple thing. And often, it's an extremely difficult thing (and yet, once done, a very easy thing in some ways. Funny how that works.)

 

[JGG]

Why would some backward Christian's journey dictate how you relate to the beattitudes? Does that make them less applicable to one's life? Also, dies Buddhism make the Beattitudes less applicable? I didn't say "Please become an average Christian" I said these principles can be applicable to an atheists life no?

I suppose they could sure. However, I fail to see how that would bring an atheist to Christ. Afterall, Taoists take on a remarkably similar philosophy, and they don't find Christ.

 

[JGG]

OK, I'll bite.

First, a bit of background. I'm 45, and only very recently have I fully accepted Christ.

While I was baptized as a babe, and went to Sunday school for a few years, my folks left the church when I was young, and for all intents and purposes was brought up in an atheist household.

During the course of my life, I "dabbled" in spirituality, but it never really stuck.

Half a decade ago, I married into a Lutheran family. My in-laws are of deep faith, and extremely active in their church, but they tend to proselytize by the way they live, not by preaching at people.

A few years back, then, I really started to feel the pull (if that makes sense), and began to really read scripture. However, I was up against my upbringing and somewhat ingrained biases. I knew where I wanted to go, but for a long time, I didn't have the courage to accept Christ, to admit my mistakes, to allow him to wash the sin away. But I knew (even if at first I didn't have the words for it) that I wanted to acquire the faith that would allow for the possibility of grace.

So - why does an atheist come to God?

Well, I suppose one could argue that it is God who comes to the atheist; that God unhardens the heart to hear the Word. And this I think would be true.

Or one could argue that it is perhaps of other's prayers. And this too would have a certain truth to it.

Or one could argue that one feels something lacking that one observes in others, and wants to be a part of it. And this too would be true.

Or one could see the universe, have a decent understanding of science, and realize that nature cannot explain itself. And again this too would be true.

And of course, one could realize that the voice one has been hearing (and too often ignoring) is the oh-so-quiet silent whisper of Christ. And finally, this too is true.

So - it's not a simple thing. And often, it's an extremely difficult thing (and yet, once done, a very easy thing in some ways. Funny how that works.)

Your story is appreciated. Of these things you listed, which would you think brought you to Christ? Or which was strongest?

I do not particularly look at religious people an find much to envy. My in-laws, and son are Jewish. My research partner is Muslim, one of my best friends is Christian (albeit gay so not really Christian), and other people around me are Hindu, and Buddhist. With the exception of yoga and meditation, I see nothing in these religions that I particularly want for myself.

I love science, I love wondering and asking questions about the universe. But I specifically won't use "the God of the gaps" to answer questions that are difficult.

Lastly, I only hear my voice in my head.

 

[LittleFish31617]

Of all the things I listed, I suspect that it was God bringing me to Him that was the strongest. However, that is in retrospect.

With that said, I've sat here for the past few minutes starting one response after another, each claiming a single most important faucet of what let me to Christ.

And I can't come up with one.

Intellectually, it was the origin question. While I have great respect for Hawking and the string theory folks, they are still describing nature; in my mind, they're either applying an elaborate Xeno's paradox, or simply begging questions. The models they create are outstanding for describing the incredible universe that God created; they still do not (and cannot) answer the question of first cause in my mind.

However, there was more at play than that. My wife married me knowing that I oscillated between a deist and an atheist. However, for whatever reason, both her and her father (God bless them) saw something close enough to a moral compass that they accepted me. And I know that they've prayed for me to come to Christ for some time; they saw the potential, and helped it grow.

At the same time, as I noted, I'd toyed with various bits of spiritualism; that is, attempts to sanctify in the name of nature. Yet as incredible and complex as nature is, I knew in my heart that there was more.

So, eventually, I came to the absolute conclusion that there was a God. Now, here I'll note that I write software for a living, and have for some time. So, forgive the pride, but I'm reasonably good at logic. And I just could not argue my way out of this, much as my intellect wanted to. I think that maybe, possibly, I was wise enough to fear God, though I knew it not. But man, did I try. And I failed.

So, given that eventually I could not get around there being a God, I had to acknowledge Him. And once my intellect was there, the rest was just a matter of courage. If there was a God, He could not not leave signs of his existence (double negative intended). And thus, like following a road home, or like dominoes falling, I came to Christ.

But with all this said, I still suspect that it would have all been for naught had He not removed the hardening of my heart. I do believe that he gave us free will; however, I don't believe that God is a complete bystander in all that happens. With this said, it occurs to me that we may have to see and grab our lifeline when it comes; we may not get infinite chances. (And to play my own devils advocate yet again, it also occurs to me that we are all God's children, and at the end of the day, it is up to Christ to wash the sin from any He chooses, regardless of the choices we make).

Anyway - heh - probably a bit more of an answer than you wanted.

But there it is.

Regards,
Erik

 

[ElijahW]

Do you think you can demonstrate a rational God? Are you suggesting that the creator of the universe is not limitless?

There isn't a demonstration available to show you God, sorry. But if you look into some of the other understandings of God that philosophers like Plato produced you will realize there is a reason for that. After you get up to speed on a rational understanding of God then we could discuss its limits.

 

[JGG]

Of all the things I listed, I suspect that it was God bringing me to Him that was the strongest. However, that is in retrospect.

With that said, I've sat here for the past few minutes starting one response after another, each claiming a single most important faucet of what let me to Christ.

And I can't come up with one.

Intellectually, it was the origin question. While I have great respect for Hawking and the string theory folks, they are still describing nature; in my mind, they're either applying an elaborate Xeno's paradox, or simply begging questions. The models they create are outstanding for describing the incredible universe that God created; they still do not (and cannot) answer the question of first cause in my mind.

However, there was more at play than that. My wife married me knowing that I oscillated between a deist and an atheist. However, for whatever reason, both her and her father (God bless them) saw something close enough to a moral compass that they accepted me. And I know that they've prayed for me to come to Christ for some time; they saw the potential, and helped it grow.

At the same time, as I noted, I'd toyed with various bits of spiritualism; that is, attempts to sanctify in the name of nature. Yet as incredible and complex as nature is, I knew in my heart that there was more.

So, eventually, I came to the absolute conclusion that there was a God. Now, here I'll note that I write software for a living, and have for some time. So, forgive the pride, but I'm reasonably good at logic. And I just could not argue my way out of this, much as my intellect wanted to. I think that maybe, possibly, I was wise enough to fear God, though I knew it not. But man, did I try. And I failed.

So, given that eventually I could not get around there being a God, I had to acknowledge Him. And once my intellect was there, the rest was just a matter of courage. If there was a God, He could not not leave signs of his existence (double negative intended). And thus, like following a road home, or like dominoes falling, I came to Christ.

But with all this said, I still suspect that it would have all been for naught had He not removed the hardening of my heart. I do believe that he gave us free will; however, I don't believe that God is a complete bystander in all that happens. With this said, it occurs to me that we may have to see and grab our lifeline when it comes; we may not get infinite chances. (And to play my own devils advocate yet again, it also occurs to me that we are all God's children, and at the end of the day, it is up to Christ to wash the sin from any He chooses, regardless of the choices we make).

Anyway - heh - probably a bit more of an answer than you wanted.

But there it is.

Regards,
Erik

Thank you!