Why won’t creationists participate in open and honest debate?

c'mon sense said:

TheCommonPatriot was supposed to be the best creationist? TheAllTooCommonCreationist...
What else can I say about someone who expects serious discussion yet dismisses geology as "guesswork at best"?

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At no point and under no circumstances do i dismiss geology, biology or any other science. What I dismiss, or rather question, is the extrapolation and "fact filling that often accompany many scientific findings. I don't exclude either side from this accusation, we're just as prone to it as the evolutionist and others.

Realistically, I've had some piecemeal information and findings thrown at me thus far and to me that doesn't constitute much in the way of proof. While it's a bit of a favorite pastime here to ridicule creationists for their lack of "evidence" I'm not getting a great deal of most of the TofE crowd either. That's not to say that their aren't some of the evidenciary crowd on both sides but it mostly seems to degenerate into little more than a finger pointing and name calling session.

I tend much more to the "big picture" cosmological side of things and while I admit that I have been intrigued by the possibilities of Irreducible Complexity and other findings I still don't look to these things as my proof for God. For my own personal requirements God has more than proven himself enough to me and I am wholely comfortable with that belief regardless of the evidence pro or con.

Now, having said that I see science in all of its' forms as a fantastic tool for mankind. It is a gift and a trait of our intellect that we are able to explore our surroundings. I see absolute wonder in the simple premise that we are even capable of contemplating the cosmos. The fact that we are capable of not only contemplating but exploring and discovering is beyond wonder.

I haven't come here to resolve issues with any of you or to beat anyone into submission with my inescapable logic and irrefutable scientific evidence. I've come here to have a discussion on things we have disagreements over and to delve into issues that may be at times within and at others without my ability to comprehend.

Other than that I want to ask something. As I've already noted I do not need, nor do I believe that science is capable of validating my belief in God. I also concede that we do ourselves and our progeny a great disservice by bludgeoning science as though it were some type of inherent evil that we must dispose of. As I noted above I see science as a wonderful tool in the exploration of ourselves, our world and our universe. While I cannot now and have no desire to rattle off an endless parade of scientific data I have no problem discussing various findings or theories so long as those who discuss these subjects with me realize that I am not a scientist...

I don't even play one on TV.

What I want from the TofE crowd is the admission that they cannot, despite their arduous research and mountains of empirical evidence, disprove the existence of God.

That's simple enough. I won't (an never have actually) call science a joke and you won't say, as though it were some undeniable fact, that there isn't a God. I figure that's a pretty good starting point for a mutually respectful and intellectually honest discussion.

I'm not much good at proselytizing and I never have been. I've had enough friends over the years who are ahteists, agnostics and others that I've realized that all I can do is be reasonable and respectful of their views, accept them for who they are and expect the same in return.

I'm not avoiding the discussion or ignoring the issues. If you have a particular discussion you'd like to have I'll do my best to tell you what I think and I may even be able to dig up a little evidence for my side given the time to do some additional reading. As an example, I don't quote chapter and verse from the bible as some are capable of. What I do have a knack for is remembering what I've read and recalling the overview of that information. When I misquote something I have no problem admitting that I have erred but I'm not goint to get ridden into the ground over it.

Now...

Anyone else want to measure cerebrum, that's a joke by the way, before we spend our time more productively in a good argument about ID, Irreducible Complexity or the fascinating mating habits of some God Forsaken mosquito. To be honest with you the whole "whose a better, more reasonable human being" thing is beginning to bore me.

God Bless You

The Common Patriot

TheCommonPatriot said:

What I want from the TofE crowd is the admission that they cannot, despite their arduous research and mountains of empirical evidence, disprove the existence of God.

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What an odd request. Certainly you understand that one need not be atheist to accept evolution. Further, it is pretty clear that science itself doesn't address the supernatural. And as a final point, the premise that god exists is not falsifiable.

So, as one who accepts evolution, I will proclaim that nothing disproves the claim that god exists. It is utterly untestable.

Ondoher said:

What an odd request. Certainly you understand that one need not be atheist to accept evolution. Further, it is pretty clear that science itself doesn't address the supernatural. And as a final point, the premise that god exists is not falsifiable.

So, as one who accepts evolution, I will proclaim that nothing disproves the claim that god exists. It is utterly untestable.

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I understand your statement but by and large the evolutionists tend to perceive that the mere existence of the theory somehow negates any possibility of the divine. I qualify that this is the case with those I have met and/or interacted with.

Congratulations on your reasonable admission.

Peace Be With You

The Common Patriot

Nathan Poe said:

Can you give me their phone #?

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With pleasure --- Jeremiah 333

• [bible]Jeremiah 33:3[/bible]

The call is free, and a live Operator is standing by!

AV1611VET said:

With pleasure --- Jeremiah 333

• [bible]Jeremiah 33:3[/bible]

The call is free, and a live Operator is standing by!

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I ask for a witness, I get mediocre poetry. bad karma?

TheCommonPatriot said:

I understand your statement but by and large the evolutionists tend to perceive that the mere existence of the theory somehow negates any possibility of the divine. I qualify that this is the case with those I have met and/or interacted with.

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Odd, I've found this to be the case with the majority of Creationists I've interacted with -- often it's their sole reason for challenging TofE in the first place.

Nathan Poe said:

I ask for a witness, I get mediocre poetry. bad karma?

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No --- short memory, perhaps?

I thought you wanted His phone number.

And His poetry is taught in colleges and universities as "second-to-none".

JohnR7 said:

It sort of makes me wonder why they keep claiming they have evidence when they can not produce any evidence.

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How so? The evidence of evolution is hardly negated by the stupidity and willfull ignorance of one hypothetical man!

AV1611VET said:

No, but I know Someone Who was.

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No, you believe you know someone who was there.

TheCommonPatriot said:

Realistically, I've had some piecemeal information and findings thrown at me thus far and to me that doesn't constitute much in the way of proof.

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Google 'evidence for speciation'. Or better yet, go to here for a whole list of observed instances of speciation (your so-called 'marcroevolution'). Is this proof enough for you?

TheCommonPatriot said:

What I want from the TofE crowd is the admission that they cannot, despite their arduous research and mountains of empirical evidence, disprove the existence of God.

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No evolutionist has ever claimed that evolution negates the possibility of the divine. Such a claim is as ridiculous as a creationist saying that, by 'disproving' the evidence for a 4.5 billion year old Earth, they have hence disproved Evolution (as if it is a disprovable theory), and that therefore Christianity is True.
Trust me, it's happened before, with much ensueing .

TheCommonPatriot said:

Anyone else want to measure cerebrum, that's a joke by the way, before we spend our time more productively in a good argument about ID, Irreducible Complexity or the fascinating mating habits of some God Forsaken mosquito. To be honest with you the whole "whose a better, more reasonable human being" thing is beginning to bore me.

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If it bores you so, why post a rather large essay on how ambiguous and on-the-fence you are on this matter? Indeed, why post at all in this debating thread, if you have no position?

AV1611VET said:

I thought you wanted His phone number.

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And you gave us poetry. The poem claimed that we could call him, but not the number we have to dial in order to do such calling.

Wiccan_Child said:

No, you believe you know someone who was there.

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You're forgetting our motto --- The Bible says it, that settles it.

And you gave us poetry.

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Not hardly --- the poetical books are to the left of Jeremiah.

The poem claimed that we could call him, but not the number we have to dial in order to do such calling.

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Depends on the phone you're using, and who's paying the bill.

AV1611VET said:

You're forgetting our motto --- The Bible says it, that settles it.

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A motto can be either true or untrue. The Bible says the Earth stands still and the sun moves. Thusly, your motto would be one of untruth.

TheCommonPatriot said:

I understand your statement but by and large the evolutionists tend to perceive that the mere existence of the theory somehow negates any possibility of the divine. I qualify that this is the case with those I have met and/or interacted with.

Congratulations on your reasonable admission.

Peace Be With You

The Common Patriot

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You need a good dose of Origins Theology: http://www.christianforums.com/f143 By and large the evolutionists here have no problem with God, myself included.

AV1611VET said:

You're forgetting our motto --- The Bible says it, that settles it.

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and the bible says plants existed before the sun, that a guy killed a thosand people with an asses jawbone
and that covering animals with sticks will cause them to be striped

willful ignorance and adament belief in something doesn't make it true

sorry but the bible is full of myths i've read stories just like what the bible has in it in other religions

TheCommonPatriot said:

Realistically, I've had some piecemeal information and findings thrown at me thus far and to me that doesn't constitute much in the way of proof. While it's a bit of a favorite pastime here to ridicule creationists for their lack of "evidence" I'm not getting a great deal of most of the TofE crowd either. That's not to say that their aren't some of the evidenciary crowd on both sides but it mostly seems to degenerate into little more than a finger pointing and name calling session.

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Science does not deal in, or produce, "proofs". It deals in evidence and likely conclusions based on the evidence.

TheCommonPatriot said:

Other than that I want to ask something. As I've already noted I do not need, nor do I believe that science is capable of validating my belief in God.

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Science deals only in that which is real. That which is not real is outside of the realm of science.

TheCommonPatriot said:

What I want from the TofE crowd is the admission that they cannot, despite their arduous research and mountains of empirical evidence, disprove the existence of God.

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The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with God one way or the other. Darwin based the original draft of the Theory of Evolution on evidence. But he also assumed that life was created by God. From my perspective, his work was best when he based it on evidence and lacking when he based it on assumption.

Science also has nothing to do with God. Science is the process of following evidence to likely conclusions. There is no credible evidence of God and therefore, nothing for science to follow. Trying to use science to find God is like trying to operate a train without tracks to follow. No evidence = No science.

TheCommonPatriot said:

That's simple enough. I won't (an never have actually) call science a joke and you won't say, as though it were some undeniable fact, that there isn't a God. I figure that's a pretty good starting point for a mutually respectful and intellectually honest discussion.

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I feel the most likely reason for the lack of evidence for God is because God doesn't exist. I feel the same way about Leprechauns, fairies and gremlins. There is no credible evidence for the existence of any of these beings and no reason for me to believe that any of them exist.

TheCommonPatriot said:

Anyone else want to measure cerebrum, that's a joke by the way, before we spend our time more productively in a good argument about ID, Irreducible Complexity or the fascinating mating habits of some God Forsaken mosquito. To be honest with you the whole "whose a better, more reasonable human being" thing is beginning to bore me.

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Can you offer an example of anything which you believe to be irreducibly complex?

TheCommonPatriot said:

I understand your statement but by and large the evolutionists tend to perceive that the mere existence of the theory somehow negates any possibility of the divine. I qualify that this is the case with those I have met and/or interacted with.

Congratulations on your reasonable admission.

Peace Be With You

The Common Patriot

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From my point here, at least, this seems a bit of a misrepresentation. A large number of people here on this board are theistic evolutionists, who do not state such.

Yes, there are people who will argue differently, Dawkins is an example. But I really cannot find much fault in their position either, given that nowhere does any evidence indicate that God would be a necessary entity for certain explanations. But to attribute such a stance to 'evolutionists' as a whole group rather mischaracterizes the diversity that is present within that group. I think one should be very careful with such generalizations, lest one forgets the diversity that is present within these groups.

Wow, a lot more discussion has been happening. Very interesting... The topic of reptile-bird evolution was mentioned a little not too long ago so I'll comment on that briefly.

Does the similarity in reptilian scales and avian feathers prove that birds evolved from reptiles?

No, because they're not similar. In a lab test they were found to be very different. The only similarity found between scales and feathers is that they are both made out of the protein keratin, what our hair, skin, and nails are made from. Later tests showed that even this was biochemically different; scales are made from a-keratin and feathers are made from f-keratin. Feathers and scales are different in development, morphogenesis, gene structure, protein shape and sequence, and filament formation and structure.

AV1611VET said:

No --- short memory, perhaps?

I thought you wanted His phone number.

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The phone number of a witness to the events previously mentioned. No such luck, I see.

And His poetry is taught in colleges and universities as "second-to-none".

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Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion as to literature. Personally, I prefer Byron.

ReverendDG said:

willful ignorance and adament belief in something doesn't make it true

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I agree, your willful ignorance does not make your adament belief true.
Again, you have judged yourself and put it out there for everyone to see.

TheCommonPatriot said:

I'm not getting a great deal of most of the TofE crowd either.

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That is just the way it is right now. But that can change over time. In the past this was a good place to learn about evolution and get answers to your questions about it. But right now it seems like there are not very many people here that know much about it at all.

Tomk80 said:

From my point here, at least, this seems a bit of a misrepresentation. A large number of people here on this board are theistic evolutionists, who do not state such.

Yes, there are people who will argue differently, Dawkins is an example. But I really cannot find much fault in their position either, given that nowhere does any evidence indicate that God would be a necessary entity for certain explanations. But to attribute such a stance to 'evolutionists' as a whole group rather mischaracterizes the diversity that is present within that group. I think one should be very careful with such generalizations, lest one forgets the diversity that is present within these groups.

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Please note that I qualified that this was the case with many of the TofE supporters and non-theists I had personally dealt with. I did not attribute this to evolutionists as a whole group. Could you guys please read the entire post before you blow a gasket and start making accusations.

sonfleur said:

Wow, a lot more discussion has been happening. Very interesting... The topic of reptile-bird evolution was mentioned a little not too long ago so I'll comment on that briefly.

Does the similarity in reptilian scales and avian feathers prove that birds evolved from reptiles?

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No, because feathers didn't evolve from elongated scales as was once thought to be the case. If you can find it on the Discovery Channel, there was a really good documentary on the evolutionary development of the feather wherein the fossil record recapitulated each stage of a feather's development as we see them arise in chicks. You really should see that if you can. But if you can't, there are plenty more proofs for avian evolution among dinosaurs that I would be happy to show you. I don't think there are any "links" still missing in that lineage, and I'm confident you'll be satisfied by the data that already exists for that.