Why Women cannot be Pastors l Voddie Baucham

[Tyler52]

 

[linux.poet]

Have to agree here - solid, concise, and to the point.

I honestly have to wonder what he would think about the large church in my area who has multiple campuses, and who employs a woman as basically a campus manager. She doesn't teach because the satellite campuses (one of which she manages) pipe in teaching from a male pastor every week. But she's still the leader, which means that she's "wielding authority over men", it appears. It bothers me. Nothing I can do about it though.

I'm also thinking that the rule in Paul's letter was to try and foster humility. If my personal experience is any indication, women are natural theology experts, or at least they have some sort of theological talent. However, using it to wield authority over men apparently seems to lead to laziness, pride, and possibly even lust. I do think Paul was trying to restrain a bunch of theologically empowered women who were posing too much of a challenge to the Roman society, but the pride/laziness/lust problem still exists today with people using traditional gender roles as an excuse not to work, aka the Cows of Bashan problem.

If we look at Proverbs 31, we should note the importance of women being economically active in trade and industry in some form or another. If they are given too much responsibility in the church, they never get a chance to develop their economic abilities and they start to wither away. Likewise, men, who are more physically gifted naturally, need the spiritual challenge of leadership in order to spiritually develop properly. The life in Christ is not about chasing what is easy for each sex, but making sure that everyone is fully developed and complete.

 

[Tyler52]

Have to agree here - solid, concise, and to the point.

I honestly have to wonder what he would think about the large church in my area who has multiple campuses, and who employs a woman as basically a campus manager. She doesn't teach because the satellite campuses (one of which she manages) pipe in teaching from a male pastor every week. But she's still the leader, which means that she's "wielding authority over men", it appears. It bothers me. Nothing I can do about it though.

I'm also thinking that the rule in Paul's letter was to try and foster humility. If my personal experience is any indication, women are natural theology experts, or at least they have some sort of theological talent. However, using it to wield authority over men apparently seems to lead to laziness, pride, and possibly even lust. I do think Paul was trying to restrain a bunch of theologically empowered women who were posing too much of a challenge to the Roman society, but the pride/laziness/lust problem still exists today with people using traditional gender roles as an excuse not to work, aka the Cows of Bashan problem.

If we look at Proverbs 31, we should note the importance of women being economically active in trade and industry in some form or another. If they are given too much responsibility in the church, they never get a chance to develop their economic abilities and they start to wither away. Likewise, men, who are more physically gifted naturally, need the spiritual challenge of leadership in order to spiritually develop properly. The life in Christ is not about chasing what is easy for each sex, but making sure that everyone is fully developed and complete.

Are women better at theological or are they just the ones putting in the work today. Unfortunately men aren’t typically the ones who are the spiritual leaders in many homes.

Furthermore, why should women be in industry? Paul washer describes woman working as (and this is a paraphrase, hopefully it’s accurate) Fathers coming home from the war (WW2) but our mothers never came back home. What this means is that mothers where taken out of the homes and never put back in the problem wasn’t as bad in the 40s, but at the end of the day public schools and babysitters are substitute parents today and if I missed that much work I’d get fired. It is very unfortunate that so many woman have to go to work, and earn money, when that was only the man’s job for so long. Now who’s raising the children?

 

[linux.poet]

Furthermore, why should women be in industry?

Because the Scripture says so.

13 She looks for wool and linen,
And works with her hands in delight.
14 She is like merchant ships;
She brings her food from afar.
15 And she rises while it is still night
And gives food to her household,
And portions to her attendants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
From her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She surrounds her waist with strength
And makes her arms strong.
18 She senses that her profit is good;
Her lamp does not go out at night.
19 She stretches out her hands to the [k]distaff,
And her hands grasp the spindle.
20 She extends her hand to the poor,
And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household,
For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She makes coverings for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
25 Strength and dignity are her clothing,
And she smiles at the future.
26 She opens her mouth in wisdom,
And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
27 She watches over the activities of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
28 Her children rise up and bless her;
Her husband also, and he praises her, saying:
29 “Many daughters have done nobly,
But you excel them all.”
30 Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her the product of her hands,
And let her works praise her in the gates.

Likewise, idle women are rebuked on multiple occasions:

Hear this word, you cows of Bashan who are on the mountain of Samaria,
Who exploit the poor, who oppress the needy,
And say to their husbands, “Bring now, that we may drink!”
2 The Lord God has sworn by His holiness,
“For behold, the days are coming upon you
When they will take you away with meat hooks,
And the last of you with fish hooks.
3 You will go out through holes in the walls,
One in front of the other,
And you will be hurled to Harmon,” declares the Lord.

11 But refuse to register younger widows, for when they feel physical desires alienating them from Christ, they want to get married, 12 thereby incurring condemnation, because they have ignored their previous pledge. 13 At the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around from house to house; and not merely idle, but also they become gossips and busybodies, talking about things not proper to mention. 14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, have children, manage their households, and give the enemy no opportunity for reproach; 15 for some have already turned away to follow Satan.

The matter of widows was another problem - women using a title of spiritual esteem as an excuse for lust and idleness.

but at the end of the day public schools and babysitters are substitute parents today and if I missed that much work I’d get fired. It is very unfortunate that so many woman have to go to work, and earn money, when that was only the man’s job for so long. Now who’s raising the children?

In my view, this is a problem with the American education/corporate systems, not anything to do with the Bible. For thousands of years women have sewed, embroidered, gardened and sold the products of their labor on the open market.

The American economic system is at least a two-fold economic oppression against women, if not three: First, that if a woman chooses to take a job, she must work in an isolated office away from her children where her children are not present and second, that the shear variety of economic opportunities available and the shear amount of accumulated knowledge means that educating children on all of the complexity of the economic system and what to do takes 18-22 long years and needs to be done by trained professionals. Education is a college degree of itself - you've got to have a professional competency just to get a kid up to speed with the crazy amount of opportunity available.

This means that today's women are given an impossible task right from day one as a mom - your job isolates you from your kid, so you can't educate them, but even if you could try, you need professional help. Now there are solutions like flexible remote work that are getting closer to the seam stressing and embroidery of old, but companies don't like them. Companies don't like women because they weren't designed for women, they were designed by men to play to male strengths. They are designed to extract the maximum amount of work possible at the expense of women, and obviously the long-term wellbeing of any woman's children don't matter as much as producing good financial outcomes for the shareholders for this quarter.

And the third oppression is economic conditions that force women into the workplace alongside men. They don't even have the option to choose laziness anymore. In short, Biblical female industry is NOT American females working jobs NOR is it keeping them home and out of the marketplace. Our society has twisted up a biblical mandate to engage economically and raise and educate children to benefit itself at women's expense.

 

[jas3]

Because the Scripture says so.

People tend to make too much out of Proverbs 31, in my opinion. Nothing in those verses indicates that the virtuous woman is working in anything more than a cottage industry. She sells her goods to a merchant; she is not herself a merchant.

The American economic system is at least a two-fold economic oppression against women, if not three: First, that if a woman chooses to take a job, she must work in an isolated office away from her children where her children are not present

Only if she chooses to take an office job rather than one that allows working from home.

second, that the shear variety of economic opportunities available and the shear amount of accumulated knowledge means that educating children on all of the complexity of the economic system and what to do takes 18-22 long years and needs to be done by trained professionals. Education is a college degree of itself - you've got to have a professional competency just to get a kid up to speed with the crazy amount of opportunity available.

This is not true. Homeschooling is a viable option, especially with co-ops that divide the workload of education.

And the third oppression is economic conditions that force women into the workplace alongside men. They don't even have the option to choose laziness anymore.

The alternative to having a career is not laziness. Even aside from cottage industry work, a stay-at-home mother puts in a tremendous amount of work caring for her children and managing the house.

 

[linux.poet]

Homeschooling is a viable option, especially with co-ops that divide the workload of education.

This is usually done in concert with online course materials or curricula that make sure the homeschooling is in line with state requirements for each grade. Abeca is one example, another is SchoolHouseTeachers.com. Nobody is acting entirely on their own.

In theory, the combination of state curriculum and knowing your own child produces better educational results than shoving them in a classroom with 30 other students for the teacher to barely divide their attention among.

 

[Tom8907]

Love Vodie! It's because what God's word says.

"I know it's what God says but I know more than God". Churches with female pastors will almost certainly have poor theology because if you defy God's word in one area, why not in more?

 

[Tyler52]

This is usually done in concert with online course materials or curricula that make sure the homeschooling is in line with state requirements for each grade. Abeca is one example, another is SchoolHouseTeachers.com. Nobody is acting entirely on their own.

In theory, the combination of state curriculum and knowing your own child produces better educational results than shoving them in a classroom with 30 other students for the teacher to barely divide their attention among.

I graduated high school 7 years ago, and I’m going to tell you, we got by by cheating. Cheating was rampant in my school and made so easy by the internet and school laptops. One of my teachers saw that I was sharing my answers and told me that I should charge money for it. Another teacher set a trap of us and she caught everyone but one group, in multiple classes. She had done the same thing the previous year and probably had the same success rate. I never read the books I was supposed to read, I let spark notes and quizlet do that for me if I remember correctly. Before that I just looked for the answers (except maybe history, I loved history, but for the vast majority of the time it was probably the same. Furthermore, the average American has only an 8th grade reading level. If public education worked, we should mostly have 12th grade reading levels. I also remember a documentary of a football player who made it all the way through school and was either functionally illiterate or illiterate. On the other hand George Washington never graduated high school and Abraham Lincoln was self educated, these men were very intelligent. How many people went to public school and did not turn out to be very intelligent. AW Tozer and Robert Ketchum where both very influential pastors who never graduated high school. The American public education system is also based on the Prussian model which was designed to create mindless soldier drones, is that what we want our kids to be? Paul was, who has attended the University of Texas at Austin and Southwestern Baptist theological seminary, was sent a logic book by a friend. He read the first chapter three times before he understood it. He then took a break, came back and saw on the cover a teacher drilling his students. He wonder why that was there and found out that this was a logic primer for grade schoolers in the colonial period. Public education in American is very low quality.

 

[Richard T]

I sure am glad the Foursquare gospel churches and the Assembly of God (over 10k are pastors) allow woman to be pastors. You can say what you want, but they have fruit including leading others to the Lord, teaching, etc. T.L. Osborn's book, "If i were a woman, or Hagin's "the woman question" show why Women have been expanding in many Pentecostal circles. Interesting too since these churches are some of the fastest growing. Here is a good teaching that talks about this question. The Question Of Women In Ministry — Redeemer Coast

 

[PloverWing]

I graduated high school 7 years ago, and I’m going to tell you, we got by by cheating.
...
I never read the books I was supposed to read, I let spark notes and quizlet do that for me if I remember correctly.
...
Public education in American is very low quality.

Any educational method is going to fail if the student is resisting it wholeheartedly, refusing to do the work of learning.

Do you ever regret these choices? Do you ever wish you'd read more books, or practiced your algebra more, or written your own papers?

 

[jas3]

You can say what you want, but they have fruit including leading others to the Lord, teaching, etc.

If they're leading people into disobedience and disregard for Scripture, are they really leading others to the Lord?

 

[BobRyan]

women are prophets in both the NT and the OT. But we don't see women as pastors.

Women are doctors, lawyers, governors, scientists, etc. The Bible does not oppose those roles. In fact in the OT women were judges set over all of Israel.

 

[Tyler52]

I sure am glad the Foursquare gospel churches and the Assembly of God (over 10k are pastors) allow woman to be pastors. You can say what you want, but they have fruit including leading others to the Lord, teaching, etc. T.L. Osborn's book, "If i were a woman, or Hagin's "the woman question" show why Women have been expanding in many Pentecostal circles. Interesting too since these churches are some of the fastest growing. Here is a good teaching that talks about this question. The Question Of Women In Ministry — Redeemer Coast

1 Timothy 2:11-15 says
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

If a church has or allows woman pastors then that church is in error on that issue. Here’s another discussion thread I have up.

Prosperity Gospel

The prosperity gospel is wrong. Jesus instructs us to pick up our crosses daily, not make bank. How many people could the mega rich feed and put through school if they didn’t have private jets and yachts? But instead there are Christians who pursue wealth for for their entire lives, and it’s a...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Tyler52]

Any educational method is going to fail if the student is resisting it wholeheartedly, refusing to do the work of learning.

So how do we fix this when critical thinking questions include “why do you believe in global warming” or “evolution,” when in fact not everyone does? How do we get children out of boredom? How do we get kids to care when surrounded by other kids who also don’t care. On top of this, our education system is designed to creat mindless drones, not critical thinkers.

Do you ever regret these choices? Do you ever wish you'd read more books, or practiced your algebra more, or written your own papers?

I always wrote my own papers, but the rest, yes, yes I do.

 

[linux.poet]

Frankly I was invested enough public school in my writing and reading that I read all the books and wrote all my own papers. I also went to the school and public libraries and read all the books that I wasn’t supposed to read. But it wasn’t enough.

The public school teachers in the U.S. state schools didn’t teach me to appreciate what I was doing. They crammed my creativity into tight deadlines and criticized my creative ideas. I didn’t get an appreciation for craftsmanship until much later. If you don’t give me enough time to get to a quality result, how can you appreciate my half-done mess that you didn’t let me finish properly?

There was nobody around to tell me that my natural work pace was a few clicks slower than everyone else and my values for quality over quantity were just different and not wrong. The result was me hating myself and me thinking I was broken. Looking back over my public school career, I wished I had cheated and I wished I had been able to cheat due to how much the teachers disrespected me. There was no pleasing them. I wasn’t what they wanted, or who they wanted. I cared about producing quality writing and doing the right thing, and it was clear that they didn’t.

women are prophets in both the NT and the OT. But we don't see women as pastors.

Sometimes I wish that “female prophetess” could be an actual role for me to take on in the church, as long as the role was more of a Scripture quoting and thinking role as opposed to charismatic predictions or associations with Nostradamus. If we had a role for female theologically inclined people to go into that was respected, maybe they would stop trying to take over leadership roles.

 

[Richard T]

1 Timothy 2:11-15 says
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

If a church has or allows woman pastors then that church is in error on that issue. Here’s another discussion thread I have up.

Prosperity Gospel

The prosperity gospel is wrong. Jesus instructs us to pick up our crosses daily, not make bank. How many people could the mega rich feed and put through school if they didn’t have private jets and yachts? But instead there are Christians who pursue wealth for for their entire lives, and it’s a...

www.christianforums.com

You need to take the bible in totality. Deborah, a judge, Mary Magdalene the first to preach the gospel., Prophetesses in Acts, the exceptions to the legalism, such as eating the showbread, or healing on the Sabbath. So an anointed woman who holds a pastorate like many thousands do is fine with me but if you want to build a doctrine to forbid it that is fine except it holds back the fruit. Also Paul said "I" which many take to mean his personal preference and not an exact command anyway.

 

[Strong in Him]

Women, and men, can do anything God calls them to do.

 

[Tyler52]

Frankly I was invested enough public school in my writing and reading that I read all the books and wrote all my own papers. I also went to the school and public libraries and read all the books that I wasn’t supposed to read. But it wasn’t enough.

The public school teachers in the U.S. state schools didn’t teach me to appreciate what I was doing. They crammed my creativity into tight deadlines and criticized my creative ideas. I didn’t get an appreciation for craftsmanship until much later. If you don’t give me enough time to get to a quality result, how can you appreciate my half-done mess that you didn’t let me finish properly?

There was nobody around to tell me that my natural work pace was a few clicks slower than everyone else and my values for quality over quantity were just different and not wrong. The result was me hating myself and me thinking I was broken. Looking back over my public school career, I wished I had cheated and I wished I had been able to cheat due to how much the teachers disrespected me. There was no pleasing them. I wasn’t what they wanted, or who they wanted. I cared about producing quality writing and doing the right thing, and it was clear that they didn’t.


Sometimes I wish that “female prophetess” could be an actual role for me to take on in the church, as long as the role was more of a Scripture quoting and thinking role as opposed to charismatic predictions or associations with Nostradamus. If we had a role for female theologically inclined people to go into that was respected, maybe they would stop trying to take over leadership roles.

Have you thought about being a woman’s pastor?
Like a pastor for women in your church

 

[Tyler52]

You need to take the bible in totality. Deborah, a judge,

Yes, one example of a woman teaching the law, it is not commented on whether this is good or bad and clearly not the norm. If a woman is teaching your men, this is not good, because a woman is teaching a man, when it is the man’s job. It’s like the a woman being the father figure in your your sons life. That’s not right, he needs a man. What’s more, Jacob lied, Moses acted out in wrath, Jephthah made a rash path, David commuted adultery, Samson did multiple bad things, sacrifices were made on the high places. Ancient Israel wasn’t perfect, so not everything was as it should have been.

Mary Magdalene the first to preach the gospel.,

This is not teaching the Bible

Prophetesses in Acts,

Yes, the gift of prophecy is not the gift of teaching.

the exceptions to the legalism, such as eating the showbread, or healing on the Sabbath.

If you’re in a church with no men then women are absolutely aloud to be the pastor, if that is not the case then she isn’t aloud to teach a man. If she is, then there cannot be any men suited for the role, but that’s only a possibility, not a certainty.

So an anointed woman who holds a pastorate like many thousands do is fine with me

They have become pastors in defiance of the Bible

but if you want to build a doctrine to forbid it that is fine except it holds back the fruit.

It does not, it’s doing things the way God says

Also Paul said "I" which many take to mean his personal preference and not an exact command anyway.

Then he has no authority to say such a thing without specifying it. But he does because the doctrine did not come from him but from God.

 

[linux.poet]

Have you thought about being a woman’s pastor?
Like a pastor for women in your church

I have not. In all situations I think of myself as an advisor, rather than a leader, and I naturally gravitate toward roles that allow me to share wisdom with others in whatever form it may be needed.

Nor do I consider myself especially gifted concerning women’s issues despite the fact that I have lived 31 years in female skin. I’m still baffled and confused by many Christian books targeted at women and get bored by female Bible study small talk. Once the Bible study gets going I appear to have a lot more thoughts than others in the group on a lot more depth, but they seem to ignore this and go back to generic spiritual thinking for some of them. I can’t really relate to their approaches and don’t know how to lead them even if I wanted to. They do not consult me for advising because they consider me inferior due to age and income. So basically we end up at a social stalemate where they make admiring comments over my ideas while I eat all of the food they don’t want because of their diets.

It’s another sad fact among women that women rate expertise by age and not intelligence. If you’re with a group of guys, intelligence matters and is respected regardless of age. But women always seem to look down on their younger peers regardless of intelligence and keep them out of leadership until they are old. Apparently relationships (children and grandchildren) matter more to them than ideas too, which also doesn’t really make much sense in my traumatic world where relationships have always been of low quality and hard work.

I still keep trying though. Maybe someday I’ll figure out how to gain female respect and the food is delicious.