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I'm referring to John 6:66"From that time many of his disciples went back and walk no more with him."
I thought I made that clear in post 42.You know that "his disciples" includes more than the 12 because the very next verse says "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"
If you're claiming now that you meant the disciples other than the 12, that's called "moving the goalpost."
I thought I made that clear in post 42.
I have been reading as much as I can. I see where the Pentacost was prophesied by Joel and spoken of by Peter during the event. Did Jesus ever clearly refer to this event other than through the founding of the church upon Peter? And was the coming of the holy spirit foretold or expected?
This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. ...
This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.
There are many different questions in here that each deserve their own thread. But to try to put the answer in a nutshell:
The disciples (like all of us) did not understand Jesus because Jesus did not fit their idea of who the Messiah was supposed to be. All of them had partial and mistaken images of the Christ in their minds and they were committed to their understanding of the world and of the Christ. Jesus defied these commitments and so baffled them.
For instance, the disciples expected the Christ to be a powerful, political savior for the Jewish nation. Crucifixion did not fit with this scheme so Peter could not understand Jesus' plain language. Every time Jesus taught that he must be crucified and raised again Peter though he must be speaking metaphorically. (Also keep in mind that the resurrection was a huge surprise. No one in Israel really expected this or had any hope in it. Death is death, people don't return from it. So the resurrection was a joyous surprise. It taught them that true salvation is not salvation from Rome or any other political power - but salvation from death itself.)
When Judas figured out that Jesus wasn't going to be the political hero that he was committed to he decided to betray him.
Etc...
Jesus clearly told them he was the messiah and the son of God and went on to prove it over and over. He then told them he would die and rise again in three days. I don't see where they had any excuses especially when Judas should have fully realized his consequences and Peter who loved Jesus so deeply should have had absolute faith at that time. The crucifiction and resurrection were both expected. Why would there have been any doubt or traitorous behavior? I don't get it.
I would hypothesize that this text has no actual basis in reality, and was written for individuals such as yourself, those in the process of questioning their faith, perhaps due to the inability to reconcile the bible stories with observations of reality. Building on the experience of previous religions, anticipating the absence of direct evidence for the god character in the bible and related claims, the bible writers wrote stories for the purpose of preaching and appealing to the masses.This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.
Because that's not the way they'd been taught the Messiah would take rule, and what Jesus was saying was foolishness--they were still reasoning by the wisdom of man, not with the mind of Christ.
It took His resurrection for them to see his plan come together.
This has been a question that has plagued me all my life. Why after all the miracles (calming a storm, walking on water, raising Lazurus, etc., etc) would have the disciples had any doubt of Jesus being the Son of God? Why would Peter have had all of his doubts? Jesus even told them of his impending death and that he would arise again after three days. Yet Peter denied Jesus three times before the crucifiction. And already knowing full well Jesus was undeniably exactly who he said he was. How could Judas have betrayed him for simple money and suffer the consequences he did? How could Thomas have doubted the resurrection to the extent he did? Why did the disciples even fear death after all they had witnessed? At that point there should have been no surprise. The surprise would have been if he did not resurrect. There have been innumerable displays of faith far greater than the disciples. Yet the disciples had the benefit of having all their doubts satisfied. There would have been no reason for them not to believe. I struggle with faith and always have. Why should I or anyone have to have faith without a reason after the disciples couldn't even believe what was right in front of them.
What did they think Jesus represented then, given all the miracles they witnessed?
Good question. I have heard there were a lot of tricksters running around. But walking on water and then having Peter get out of the boat and walk with him momentarily, I would think would have at least convinced Peter. Not to mention Jesus calming a storm. Yet Peter still denied him three times. And Peter was supposed to be the one who loved Jesus most. Doesn't say much for strength of character IMHO.
True, the inherited religions of tradition are hard to break free from. Look at what became of Christianity and any notion that there was an original gospel of Jesus as oposed to Pauls new gospel of human sacrifice. Even today any variance or suggestion that there may be any errors in the Bible is met with the Satan tampering accusation. People have more faith in Satan then they do in Living truth.
I have often thought about how difficult it all was for the apostles to forsake everything in following Jesus who taught truths that were so much at odds with their cherished ideology, personal and national pride. Jesus referred to what converts would experience among family and friends "I have not come to bring peace but a sword." Jesus stretched their minds as far as he could away from fasts and forms, from a national God of tradition to a personal God.
Yep, you would think, they would have witnessed these things and went; wow, we have never seen anything like this before. Who is this Jesus?
I have never managed to undertand why they followed him at all. They must not have had very cherished lives to begin with.
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