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Scripture? please show me where Scripture says that the important part of prayer is the physical ability to move ones lips, rather than a spiritual exercise.
Scripture as well:
Jer 29:13 comes to mind.
Answer me first. On what basis do you claim it is not?
So you lean on your own understanding? Prov.3:5
that really does not in any way demonstrate or answer, from Scripture, as you claim as your basis for the belief that a physical nature is required for prayer, and in fact is rather ironic, for I could easy say the same for you. I have provided a reference to prayer supporting my belief that it is a spiritual exercise, not merely a physical one, and you have not yet provided any support from Scripture or Tradition (I'll expand it for you there) to support your claim...and yet I'm the one leaning on my own understanding? Again...irony.
I do not maintain that a physical nature is necessary for prayer. I maintain that Scripture forbids praying to the physically dead. Outside yourself, what is your authority?
Scripture opposes divination, which is not the same thing as intercession, as I am sure you are well aware.
Also, in the OT, there was no Church, the Body of Christ. God had not established it yet, thus obviously there were not those in heaven, still alive because of Christ...now, by God's grace there are those in heaven, still alive, and able to pray.
I claim that prayer is more than merely the ability to move ones lips from Scripture...as noted in my previous post.
My questions for those who believe you should/can pray to saints:
1) Where is biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer?
2) If you can find biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer, how do you know they listen to your prayer and not someone else prayer or are they omnipresent so they can hear everyone's prayers all around the world at the same time?
My questions for those who believe you should/can pray to saints:
1) Where is biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer?
2) If you can find biblical evidence for they can hear your prayer, how do you know they listen to your prayer and not someone else prayer or are they omnipresent so they can hear everyone's prayers all around the world at the same time?
we are a body, with one Spirit uniting us all; so just as our body parts, though separate are none the less a single entity, so too the Church. Those in heaven know fully as they are fully known, and are like Him, as they see Him as He is.
ad hominem=concession
You refuse to address the issues I raise. Instead, you repeat the same question over and over, dodging the issue. Is this not because you know that if you do address my issues you will have to concede that you have been in error?
your question, as I read, was where does Scripture indicate that prayer is more Spiritual than physical...
you then pointed out that Scripture is opposed to consulting the dead. I agree.
My point though is that because of Christ, those in Christ are not dead, my belief in that comes directly from the Gospel and the New Testament epistles. There bodies may be dead, but through the Grace of Christ they are Spiritual alive, and through the Church, sharing one Spirit, we are all united, ergo through this communion, we can and do pray for one another, those on earth and those in heaven.
No. You're twisting my question to suit your answer.
And I now feel so ... well, inferior now. You win.
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