Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

washedagain · Feb 28, 2012

katherine2001 said:
Then Jesus is a liar. He said that those who believe in Him shall have eternal LIFE (life is the total opposite of death).

and yet Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. all died or were they all assumed without death?

Jesus PLAINLY said Lazarus was DEAD. People die, it is inevitable... you gotta die to get to heaven or hell. Dead as a door nail.

So, you pray to dead people. End of story.

Thekla · Feb 28, 2012

washedagain said:
and yet Paul, Peter, Mary, James, John, Thomas, Jude, etc. all died or were they all assumed without death?

Jesus PLAINLY said Lazarus was DEAD. People die, it is inevitable... you gotta die to get to heaven or hell. Dead as a door nail.

So, you pray to dead people. End of story.

You seem to be confusing bios/span of life in time for zoe/spark of life eternal life in Christ.

The cessation of bios does not stop zoe, for bios is not the source of zoe, but the God given zoe is the beginning of bios and zoe continues in Him beyond bios.

jackmt · Feb 28, 2012

Thekla said:
You seem to be confusing bios/span of life in time for zoe/spark of life eternal life in Christ.

The cessation of bios does not stop zoe, for bios is not the source of zoe, but the God given zoe is the beginning of bios and zoe continues in Him beyond bios.

No. You refuse to accept a distinction God clearly makes.

Thekla · Feb 28, 2012

jackmt said:
Those whose bodies have died, or are corpses if you prefer, is who I am calling dead. I acknowledge they are alive in another realm; some in heaven, some awaiting judgment.

Again, I have made those distinctions clear. If you maintain that their bodies are alive, say so. To answer me meaningfully you must accept my stipulative definition of "dead" or provide another we can use. Otherwise, you are committing the logical fallacie of equivocating.

Are the bodies of the saints in heaven alive or dead?

Their body dies, but the life (zoe) does not.

The state of the body does not determine the reality of the life in Christ, which is eternal now.

To have a corpse does not make one "dead" spiritually, as one is with Christ. But to have lost the "zoe", can render one yet living in the body "dead".

What seems like "equivocation" is not, but arises quite simply from the fact that English has only one word for life though Greek and thus the Scriptures use two (with distinct meanings).

Eternally Optimistic · Feb 28, 2012

Rick Otto said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that isn't the issue. It is about us the living, praying to the deceased, not intercessing (praying for ~).

you are wrong, so there you are corrected.

it goes back to a view of the Church, we believe the Church exists in heaven and earth...I will not speak for Protestants, but it would seem that their opposition to the intercession of the saints, or more accurately the insistence that such a thing is impossible as the saints or not with us physically which some how means they are no longer linked to us spiritually.

Questions,

what is prayer? Is it simply a form of adoration? Or is it a form of communion or communication?

Is prayer more a physical action or a spiritual one? If it is the latter, then what prevents or is found objectionable in the belief those member of the Church with Christ in heaven are capable of intercession?

Assuming you are a credial Protestant, what then is your understanding of the "communion of saints"?

washedagain · Feb 28, 2012

Thekla said:
You seem to be confusing bios/span of life in time for zoe/spark of life eternal life in Christ.

The cessation of bios does not stop zoe, for bios is not the source of zoe, but the God given zoe is the beginning of bios and zoe continues in Him beyond bios.

I am not confusing anything/... people die and you pray to them.

whitetiger1 · Feb 28, 2012

washedagain said:
I am not confusing anything/... people die and you pray to them.

So no one is alive in Christ.

washedagain · Feb 28, 2012

whitetiger1 said:
So no one is alive in Christ.

Everyone who dies are dead... those who are in christ are dead in christ as the scriptures say.

It is a humbling knowledge. Grasp it.

You pray to dead people... all those people you pray to DIED. end of story.

Standing Up · Feb 28, 2012

It's amazing the talking past each other. Hard to believe folks really can't seem to understand each other.

The point is simply there's not a single NT apostle who teaches Christians to invoke/pray/ask the dead in Christ for anything. The apostles do ask the living in Christ on earth to pray for the other living in Christ on earth.

Surely the apostles understood the belief of the "dead in Christ", yet again, no where do they suggest or hint to invoke them. The obvious conclusion is if you think your bishops are above apostolic instruction, there's nothing more to be said about the practice, regardless of the semantic hoop jumping.

Eternally Optimistic · Feb 28, 2012

"dead" in Christ?

that has to be the saddest, most disturbing, bordering on out right heresy oxymoron I have ever seen.

what a shame.

Standing Up · Feb 28, 2012

Eternally Optimistic said:
"dead" in Christ?

that has to be the saddest, most disturbing, bordering on out right heresy oxymoron I have ever seen.

what a shame.

You'll have to take up your lament with Paul and the Thessalonians, though they wouldn't join in.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What again was your point?

whitetiger1 · Feb 28, 2012

washedagain said:
Everyone who dies are dead... those who are in christ are dead in christ as the scriptures say.

It is a humbling knowledge. Grasp it.

You pray to dead people... all those people you pray to DIED. end of story.

Wrong on a giant scale. Those who die in Christ are more alive than us

washedagain · Feb 28, 2012

Standing Up said:
It's amazing the talking past each other. Hard to believe folks really can't seem to understand each other.

The point is simply there's not a single NT apostle who teaches Christians to invoke/pray/ask the dead in Christ for anything. The apostles do ask the living in Christ on earth to pray for the other living in Christ on earth.

Surely the apostles understood the belief of the "dead in Christ", yet again, no where do they suggest or hint to invoke them. The obvious conclusion is if you think your bishops are above apostolic instruction, there's nothing more to be said about the practice, regardless of the semantic hoop jumping.

When did you ever hear Paul ask anyone to pray to those who have died?
The answer is NEVER.

Thekla · Feb 28, 2012

Standing Up said:
You'll have to take up your lament with Paul and the Thessalonians, though they wouldn't join in.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What again was your point?

So the question becomes, did Christ mean what He stated (those who live/zoe in me shall never die) ?

Are those who are absent from the body really present with Christ (Paul) ?

If the answer to these two questions is "yes", then those who are with Christ who are "absent" from their bodies (a corpse) will be reunited with their resurrected body at the second coming.

Eternally Optimistic · Feb 28, 2012

Standing Up said:
You'll have to take up your lament with Paul and the Thessalonians, though they wouldn't join in.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What again was your point?

a physical death is not the same as saying they are spiritually dead in Christ, which is what one has to believe to truly reject the intercession of the saints. To insist that there is a spiritual death "in Christ" is in direct opposition to the clear teaching of the Gospel, Scripture in general, and the whole teaching of Christianity for the ages.

washedagain · Feb 28, 2012

whitetiger1 said:
Wrong on a giant scale. Those who die in Christ are more alive than us

Are you suggesting they did not die?

Thekla · Feb 28, 2012

washedagain said:
When did you ever hear Paul ask anyone to pray to those who have died?
The answer is NEVER.

He is quite clear that we are to pray for one another and asks (prays) others to pray for him.

Does our love for one another and for Christ cease when our body dies, when we are absent from the body and present with Christ ?

washedagain · Feb 28, 2012

Thekla said:
He is quite clear that we are to pray for one another and asks (prays) others to pray for him.

Does our love for one another and for Christ cease when our body dies, when we are absent from the body and present with Christ ?

No. What is your point? All those that went to heaven or hell had to
DIE first. They died.

jackmt · Feb 28, 2012

Eternally Optimistic said:
"dead" in Christ?

that has to be the saddest, most disturbing, bordering on out right heresy oxymoron I have ever seen.

what a shame.

It's Scripture. Tell God He's heretical.. I Thes.4:16

Eternally Optimistic · Feb 28, 2012

washedagain said:
Are you suggesting they did not die?

the suggestion is that Jesus isn't a liar in the Gospels.

Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

How important is venerating (and praying to) the saints?

It's essential to our faith!

Quite important, but understandable if some disagree.

It couldn't hurt.

I'm undecided, or don't really care.

Faith is personal, no point arguing about it.

The bible doesn't actually support it, so not very.

It's tantamount to idolatry!

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