Why we cannot lose our salvation

[Skala]

We cannot lose our salvation because God doesn't fail.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

When God predestines a man to become conformed into the image of Christ, it's as good as done. The grammar allows for nothing else.

Every single person foreknown is predestined. (whom he foreknew, he predestined)

Every single person predestined is called (whom he predestined, he called)

Every single person called is justified (whom he called, he justified)

Every single person justified is glorified (whom he justified, he glorified)

Thus, whom he foreknew, is glorified. Not a single person falls through the cracks here, or Paul is wrong. And that cannot be.

No ifs ands or buts!

 

[OzSpen]

PrincetonGuy,

You have missed my point. You claimed that my interpretation of eis telos (to end) in Matt 24:13 was my personal opinion. I demonstrated that I consulted commentaries to show that that was not my personal opinion.

You have provided some counter examples, but you don't want to acknowledge that I was not giving my personal opinion. I provided support.

Oz

 

[phoenixdem]

PrincetonGuy,

You have missed my point. You claimed that my interpretation of eis telos (to end) in Matt 24:13 was my personal opinion. I demonstrated that I consulted commentaries to show that that was not my personal opinion.

You have provided some counter examples, but you don't want to acknowledge that I was not giving my personal opinion. I provided support.

Oz

Have you seen this? (2) Alan Hugh M'Neile: "This generation" cannot mean the Jews as a people, believers in Christ, or the future generation that will experience these things. It must be the particular generation of Jews to whom, or of whom, the words were spoken.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the End within the lifetime of His contemporaries.

Jesus Gave False Prophecy in the Olivet Discourse

If M'Neile believes that Jesus didn't know His own business, what can we think of the author?

 

[OzSpen]

phoenixdem,

Have you seen this? (2) Alan Hugh M'Neile: "This generation" cannot mean the Jews as a people, believers in Christ, or the future generation that will experience these things. It must be the particular generation of Jews to whom, or of whom, the words were spoken.... It is impossible to escape the conclusion that Jesus, as Man, expected the End within the lifetime of His contemporaries.

Jesus Gave False Prophecy in the Olivet Discourse

If M'Neile believes that Jesus didn't know His own business, what can we think of the author or those who quote him?

I quoted sources (commentaries) that have proven reliable over decades. However, I also read and teach NT Greek. I'm able to assess these things myself. But I'm a fallible human being, just as you are as well.

Do you rely on resources other than yourself?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Skala,

We cannot lose our salvation because God doesn't fail.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

When God predestines a man to become conformed into the image of Christ, it's as good as done. The grammar allows for nothing else.

Every single person foreknown is predestined. (whom he foreknew, he predestined)

Every single person predestined is called (whom he predestined, he called)

Every single person called is justified (whom he called, he justified)

Every single person justified is glorified (whom he justified, he glorified)

Thus, whom he foreknew, is glorified. Not a single person falls through the cracks here, or Paul is wrong. And that cannot be.

No ifs ands or buts!

The problem with your kind of argumentation is that you leave out chunks of Scripture that disagree with your perspective. See HERE.

Oz

 

[phoenixdem]

phoenixdem,

I quoted sources (commentaries) that have proven reliable over decades. However, I also read and teach NT Greek. I'm able to assess these things myself. But I'm a fallible human being, just as you are as well.

Do you rely on resources other than yourself?

Oz

Oh, I didn't realize that it was you who quoted him. Do you need to check your references?

 

[OzSpen]

phoenixdem,

Oh, I didn't realize that it was you who quoted him. Do you need to check your references?

Who am I quoting? To what are you referring?

Oz

 

[phoenixdem]

.

 

[DeaconDean]

You know, I used to think that several "doctrines" were debated more than others.

But I see that this (OSAS, or whatever you choose to call it), is quickly rising to the top.

One author says:

Today no view seems criticized as much as Lordship Salvation or the Calvinistic doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints.

How true this is.

The problem with your kind of argumentation is that you leave out chunks of Scripture that disagree with your perspective. See HERE.

While I did not read it throughly, I do not agree with it.

You see, Arthur W. Pink in his "An Exposition of Hebrews" says in the "Introduction":

Nevertheless, its first sentence enables us to identify at once those to whom the Epistle was originally sent: see Hebrews 1:1, 2. They to whom God spake through the prophets were the children of Israel, and it was also unto them He had spoken through His Son.

1. Introduction

He further says:

This, in a word, was to instruct Jewish believers that Judaism had been superceded by Christianity. It must be borne in mind that a very considerable proportion of the earliest converts to Christ were Jews by natural birth, who continued to labor under Jewish prejudices. In his early Epistles the apostle had touched several times on this point, and sought to wean them from an undue and now untimely attachment to the Mosaic institutions. But only in this Epistle does he deal fully and systematically with the subject.

http://pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_001.htm, Section 2. Its Purpose

And he states this about its theme:

This is, the super-abounding excellence of Christianity over Judaism. The sum and substance, the center and circumference, the light and life of Christianity, is Christ. Therefore, the method followed by the Holy Spirit in this Epistle, in developing its dominant theme, is to show the immeasurable superiority of Christ over all that had gone before. One by one the various objects in which the Jews boasted are taken up, and in the presence of the superlative glory of the Son of God they pale into utter insignificance. We are shown First, His superiority over the prophets, Hebrews 1:1-3. Second, His superiority over angels in Hebrews 1:4 to Hebrews 2:18. Third, His superiority over Moses in Hebrews 3:1-19. Fourth, His superiority over Joshua, Hebrews 4:1-13. Fifth, His superiority over Aaron in Hebrews 5:14 to 7:18. Sixth, His superiority over the whole ritual of Judaism, which is developed by showing the surpassing excellency of the new covenant over the old, in Hebrews 7:19 to Hebrews 10:39. Seventh, His superiority over each and all of the Old Testament saints, in Hebrews 11:1 to Hebrews 12:3. In the Lord Jesus, Christians have the substance and reality, of which Judaism contained but the shadows and figures.

http://pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_001.htm, Section 3, Its Theme

Sorry, I just don't see it your authors way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hupomone10]

You know, I used to think that several "doctrines" were debated more than others.

But I see that this (OSAS, or whatever you choose to call it), is quickly rising to the top.

One author says:



How true this is.



While I did not read it throughly, I do not agree with it.

You see, Arthur W. Pink in his "An Exposition of Hebrews" says in the "Introduction":



1. Introduction

He further says:



http://pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_001.htm, Section 2. Its Purpose

And he states this about its theme:



http://pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_001.htm, Section 3, Its Theme

Sorry, I just don't see it your authors way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Hey DD, have you ever noticed that they never give any useful guidance as to actually living the Christian life from this view, or guidance on how to be alert to and avoid these sins that damn? It's as though if you merely BELIEVE the doctrine that you can fall, that this doctrinal belief will somehow usher you into spirituality? I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed this...

Blessings,

H.

 

[Skala]

Skala,

The problem with your kind of argumentation is that you leave out chunks of Scripture that disagree with your perspective.[/URL].

Oz

You mean Paul's perspective.

It's his argument, not mine.

Got scripture that disagrees with the Apostle Paul's perspective? Show it.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

PrincetonGuy,

You have missed my point. You claimed that my interpretation of eis telos (to end) in Matt 24:13 was my personal opinion. I demonstrated that I consulted commentaries to show that that was not my personal opinion.

You have provided some counter examples, but you don't want to acknowledge that I was not giving my personal opinion. I provided support.

Oz

You wrote,

“The phrase, eis telos (to end) has the simple view of enduring to life's end here on earth. Telos has no definite article, as it has in vv 6, 14 in this chapter, so the Greek demonstrates that this is not THE end, THE end of the world. However for flow in English translation, the translators have used "the end" but the definite article "the" is not in the Greek text.”

The “support” that you posted said absolutely nothing to support your statement that “the Greek demonstrates that this is not THE end, THE end of the world.” I, however, quoted from a Matthean scholar who studied the Greek construction εις τελος in the Septuagint, the New Testament, and classical Greek and concluded, contrary to your opinion, “εις τελος is therefore ‘continually,’ i.e. to the utmost extent or intensity of persecution.”

I wrote,

“I have attempted to find someone with an extensive knowledge of the Greek New Testament who believes that the absence of the article “demonstrates that this is not THE end, THE end of the world,” but I have not found such person.”

Can you quote anyone with an extensive knowledge of the Greek New Testament who believes that the absence of the article “demonstrates that this is not THE end, THE end of the world”?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You mean Paul's perspective.

It's his argument, not mine.

Got scripture that disagrees with the Apostle Paul's perspective? Show it.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 8:28-39 is a doxology declaring the faithfulness and love of God toward the Christian; and being a doxology, it says nothing about the faithfulness and love of the Christian toward God. Many other passages in the Bible, however, tell us how extremely unfaithful and unloving toward God Christians can be. For example,

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” (NASB, 1995)

 

[If Not For Grace]

Why we cannot lose our salvation

JMHO but this whole OSAS argument is a stumbling block for many-why do we put sooo much emphasis on it? "As for me & My house" we shall follow the Lord-& wherever that leads is ok w/me

 

[Skala]

Romans 8:28-39 is a doxology declaring the faithfulness and love of God toward the Christian; and being a doxology, it says nothing about the faithfulness and love of the Christian toward God.

That's what salvation is. God saving us. Not us getting ourselves saved.

It's his work, to us. It's mercy.

If you didn't deserve to be saved in the first place and can't earn your salvation, then how you can sin your way out of salvation thus un-deserving your salvation and unearning your salvation?

If sin condemns me, then Christ didn't do a good atoning for my sins did he?
What a low view of salvation and Christ's finished work you have my friend.

It seems to me you're reading something into that Hebrews passage that isn't there. No where does it say a truly regenerated, born again, justified, sheep of Christ has fallen away from the faith and become unsaved. Pure eisegesis bro. Jesus tells us that when people fall away it's because there was never root to begin with. He doesn't say you have root, then you lose it. He doesn't say "I used to know you, but now I don't. He says I never knew you. You never had root. Parable of the sower.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

What a low view of salvation and Christ's finished work you have my friend.

Calvin adamantly denied that any Christian could be set free from the bonds of sin prior to his death, and taught that Romans 7:14-25 depicts the spiritual condition of the Apostle Paul at the time that he wrote his Epistle to the Romans. I, on the other hand, believe that the atoning death of Christ on the cross was sufficient to set free from the bonds of sin every true believe in Christ, and that Romans 7:14-25 depicts the spiritual condition of unregenerate Jews who are striving unsuccessfully to obey the Law rather than the freedom from sin that true believers in Christ experience daily by grace through faith in the atoning death of Christ on the cross.

Matt. 1:21. “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” (NASB, 1995)

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33. They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34. Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.” (NASB, 1995)

Romans 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NASB, 1995)

I do not believe, however, that all believers in Christ remain true to Him who died for them.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Pe[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.


Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.

 

[OzSpen]

Can you quote anyone with an extensive knowledge of the Greek New Testament who believes that the absence of the article “demonstrates that this is not THE end, THE end of the world”?

I have already quoted R C H Lenski, who has extensive knowledge of the Greek language, and he does not agree with you.

The editors of Hard Sayings of the Bible (IVP 1996) were not amateurs in their knowledge of Greek. The editors are: Walter C. Kaiser Jr, Peter H Davids, F F Bruce and Manfred T Brauch. Of Matthew 24:13 and "the end" they wrote:

It is not those who "make a decision for Christ" (which is not a New Testament term), but those who "stand firm to the end" (Mt 10:22; 24Z:13; Mk 13:15) who will be saved ... a commitment to Christ lived out through obedience to the end of life (p. 710).

I am not interested in a slinging match about who is quoting the best Greek authorities. The facts are that there are Greek exegetes who agree with your position and my position on Matt. 24:13.

In Christ, Oz

 

[PrincetonGuy]

It seems to me you're reading something into that Hebrews passage that isn't there. No where does it say a truly regenerated, born again, justified, sheep of Christ has fallen away from the faith and become unsaved. Pure eisegesis bro. Jesus tells us that when people fall away it's because there was never root to begin with. He doesn't say you have root, then you lose it. He doesn't say "I used to know you, but now I don't. He says I never knew you. You never had root. Parable of the sower.

Sanctification by the blood of the covenant does NOT precede justification by faith; it follows it.

 

[Skala]

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

No, that's not the only way to interpreted it, as you asserted. It sounds exactly like the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Hebrews and Matthew sound like the exact same teaching my friend. False converts, not true converts who fall away.

Again, yo have a low view of salvation. And a low view of regeneration. Perhaps a question you should ponder on is this:

Would a new creature in Christ, a born again person who has a new nature, (not the old stony nature) ever have a desire to fall away from Christ in the first place? If so, what in the world is the point of the new birth/new nature?

Secondly, since faith is a gift from God, are you saying God takes away his gift to us? Absurd, God keeps his promises.

 

[OzSpen]

Skala,

You mean Paul's perspective.

It's his argument, not mine.

Got scripture that disagrees with the Apostle Paul's perspective? Show it.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The problem lies in your definition of Paul's perspective. Your understanding of predestination does not allow for the perspective of the total Bible.

For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 disagrees with your predestination perspective regarding perseverance of the saints (eternal security). See my exposition: "Once Saved, Always Saved OR Once Saved, Lost Again".

In Christ, Oz