Why was the cross necessary?

[nolidad]

Some things are impossible to put into words ... but I have found that God can teach you more in a moment then all those who have ever lived can teach you in a life time.

Well if you wish to share those revelations from god to us mere men, then I suggest you talk and write like us and not be so mystical sounding! Otherwise you will not be understood! Scripture teaches us to relate to those we are talking to!

 

[JacksBratt]

A better question would be would resurrection be possible if the Christ had not died. Salvation was a given. God had already announced His will would be done in earth as it was in Heaven. His Kingdom would come. Good news. Jesus demonstrated what it would be like and how it would come about.

Am I correct in stating that you believe that salvation would be possible without the death of Christ?

 

[timothyu]

Am I correct in stating that you believe that salvation would be possible without the death of Christ?

How well does a clock run with a cog missing. He was the one being put to the test. Had He failed... no resurrection, no Kingdom. People need to remember to put God first, rather than me me me salvation. The King and Kingdom took precedence over our salvation. Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the gospel of us. He had His priorities straight.

 

[JacksBratt]

How well does a clock run with a cog missing. He was the one being put to the test. Had He failed... no resurrection, no Kingdom. People need to remember to put God first, rather than me me me salvation. The King and Kingdom took precedence over our salvation. Jesus taught the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the gospel of us. He had His priorities straight.

Really? What are you actually saying? Can you not answer as simple question?

Let's do this:

What would happen to you after your die... as penalty for your sins?

 

[timothyu]

What would happen to you after your die... as penalty for your sins?

The same thing that has happened since the Garden.. we die.

 

[yellowMan]

OP, why is the sky blue and not green? Why do cats have four paws instead of five?

Answer: Because that's the way God wanted it to be.

We don't need to understand everything to the nth degree. Did you even consider the fact that there could be reasons to these questions that our little pee brains wouldn't even be able to comprehend? I don't see the point in stressing about it.

In the example you brought up, God told us what we need to do to be saved. It is what it is. You either accept it on His terms or disregard at your own peril.

 

[timothyu]

You either accept it on His terms or disregard at your own peril.

Reverse engineering God seems to have become the foundation of Christianity. Jesus said His church would be built upon the rock of God's truth, not man's.

 

[Scott Husted]

Well if you wish to share those revelations from god to us mere men, then I suggest you talk and write like us and not be so mystical sounding! Otherwise you will not be understood! Scripture teaches us to relate to those we are talking to!

This is why (considering the total sum of why you wrote what you wrote) the cross was necessary, and also as something (cross) we must pick up for ourselves ...

As an observation ... Jesus seemed to have fallen short on this relating to people when talking to Nicodemus ... why do you think that was ... (which itself also falls under the heading of why) ...

 

[timothyu]

Jesus seemed to have fallen short on this relating to people when talking to Nicodemus ... why do you think that was ..

We keep forgetting that the four books were literary attempts to piece together anecdotes and oral tradition into a cohesive narrative of the story of the Gospel of the Kingdom. It is not surprising some parts would be seen a vague. It's like Netflix taking a few snippets of a persons life and turning it into a two hour biography. Blank areas are either made up or as in the case of the four books, gently worked around.

 

[honey badger]

Well if you wish to share those revelations from god to us mere men, then I suggest you talk and write like us and not be so mystical sounding! Otherwise you will not be understood! Scripture teaches us to relate to those we are talking to!

i hear him

 

[JacksBratt]

The same thing that has happened since the Garden.. we die.

Right.... good answer..

So... in order to pay the dept of your sin... someone has to die..You... have to die for your sin debt.

It cannot be someone else with sin... cause their death will pay their dept... not yours.

So................. Christ, sinless, is the only one that can pay the dept...

He does so by...........DYING... for you... not for Himself.. He has no sin dept to pay...

Therefore... by your own admittance..... the Cross was necessary.

Capeech?

 

[Scott Husted]

Right.... good answer..

So... in order to pay the dept of your sin... someone has to die..You... have to die for your sin debt.

It cannot be someone else with sin... cause their death will pay their dept... not yours.

So................. Christ, sinless, is the only one that can pay the dept...

He does so by...........DYING... for you... not for Himself.. He has no sin dept to pay...

Therefore... by your own admittance..... the Cross was necessary.

Capeech?

The payment really was made from the foundation of the world, but like for Abraham it had to be something experienced in a form that he could see to even begin to understand the end of God's mind from the beginning.

 

[honey badger]

The payment really was made from the foundation of the world, but like for Abraham it had to be something experienced in a form that he could see to even begin to understand the end of God's mind from the beginning.

Whoever does not carry his cross and come after Me is not able to be My disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first, having sat down, count the cost, whether he has enough for its completion?

 

[JacksBratt]

The payment really was made from the foundation of the world, but like for Abraham it had to be something experienced in a form that he could see to even begin to understand the end of God's mind from the beginning.

What was this "payment" that was made from the foundation of the world?

 

[Scott Husted]

What was this "payment" that was made from the foundation of the world?

The Lamb ...

 

[timothyu]

Therefore... by your own admittance..... the Cross was necessary.

Capeech?

Was the will of the Father payment (to be paid), or was His will the offering of a gift? To the Hebrew people, nothing about the word redemption when involving divine matters required payment or a ransom. Redemption required no payment of ransom. It was freely given. That was the meaning of the Hebrew word.
Grace itself from the Hebrew chen means basically 'loving-kindness'. Is grace (loving kindness) then grace if it requires a payment?

Does a gift need to be paid for or can it be something given of self? The cross symbolized that man's will was no match for the will of God and that God's will would prevail beyond what man considered a final solution. All man dies and Jesus' death was used to show not only God's power over man (and the Adversary) but also became the first resurrection into the new Kingdom, a fitting action for it's King. Man can kill the body, but only God can do as He wills with the soul. By our very nature as humans God knew the outcome of Jesus' teachings would be His death at the hands of man. It's kinda how we operate so Jesus' demise was predictable.

 

[ViaCrucis]

OP, why is the sky blue and not green? Why do cats have four paws instead of five?

Answer: Because that's the way God wanted it to be.

Well, yes, that is how things are because that's how God designed things to be. But it's not just some "God done it" answer. There are actual answers to those questions.

The sky is blue rather than green because of the sun's light spectra, Rayleigh scattering, and the composition of our atmosphere. Under different circumstances a green atmosphere would be possible, for example a chlorine-rich atmosphere would probably be enough to turn a planet's sky green.

And the reason cats have four paws and not five is because cats are tetrapods. Given the bilateral symmetry of all bilaterian organisms, any bilateral organism that has limbs is going to have an equal number of limbs on either side. Which is why we see bilaterian organisms with four, six, eight, ten, etc limbs. Obviously a five-limbed organism is possible, many sea stars--which have radial symmetry like all other echinoderms--can have a highly diverse limb (or protrusions of some kind) arrangement around the center body. So cats have four paws because they are tetrapods, and all members of tetrapoda are also members of bilateria.

It's probably a good idea to both offer the known explanation for these things while also giving God honor as the One who made all things. With all due respect, the alternative seems to discourage rational thought and genuine inquiry--which are good things.

Now when it comes to certain matters of faith, our reason and the use of the rational does not necessarily get us from point A to point B; and that's okay. But when there definitely are answers, or where answers are possible, they should be sought out, and we should use rational and critical thinking in those endeavors.

In the Mystery of the Cross, there are good answers to the question, even if there may be aspects of the Mystery which are beyond us at present. Christ's death is a very deliberate act of God, God the Son very deliberately chose to suffer, chose to become flesh and be crucified--it wasn't "just because", it was because through this God becomes a participant with us in our humanity--that means death--and through this makes us participants with Him.

Or as St. Athanasius wrote, "God became man in order that man might become god." Which if you're not familiar with the historic doctrine of Theosis this might sound shocking, but it's simply what St. Peter himself says in his epistle, that we have become partakers of the Divine nature. Christ our God has shared in our humanity, and by our union to Christ we share in His Divinity. We aren't divine, and will of course never be divine--but in Christ we share in the life of God who is Divine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[timothyu]

We aren't divine, and will of course never be divine--but in Christ we share in the life of God who is Divine.

We became god's like them with the taking of the knowledge of good and evil as the scripture states, but yes until we willingly give up self determination of what is good and evil and let the divine guide us, nothing will have changed.

 

[JacksBratt]

Was the will of the Father payment (to be paid), or was His will the offering of a gift? To the Hebrew people, nothing about the word redemption when involving divine matters required payment or a ransom. Redemption required no payment of ransom. It was freely given. That was the meaning of the Hebrew word.
Grace itself from the Hebrew chen means basically 'loving-kindness'. Is grace (loving kindness) then grace if it requires a payment?

Does a gift need to be paid for or can it be something given of self? The cross symbolized that man's will was no match for the will of God and that God's will would prevail beyond what man considered a final solution. All man dies and Jesus' death was used to show not only God's power over man (and the Adversary) but also became the first resurrection into the new Kingdom, a fitting action for it's King. Man can kill the body, but only God can do as He wills with the soul. By our very nature as humans God knew the outcome of Jesus' teachings would be His death at the hands of man. It's kinda how we operate so Jesus' demise was predictable.

Ugh.....

I'm done.

 

[nolidad]

This is why (considering the total sum of why you wrote what you wrote) the cross was necessary, and also as something (cross) we must pick up for ourselves ...

As an observation ... Jesus seemed to have fallen short on this relating to people when talking to Nicodemus ... why do you think that was ... (which itself also falls under the heading of why) ...

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????