Why was the cross necessary?

[nolidad]

We were already punished with removal from the Garden and the Tree of Life and released into the world to suffer the consequences of our self serving actions, then die.

Again... Is grace, grace if it requires payment?

And as SCripture says Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Grace is free for us because Jesus paid the price!

 

[GraceBro]

I can certainly relate to that! I'm sure I usually feel more alive, certainly bodily!, when opening a packet of chocolate-coated biscuits that I do when walking through a church door!



Thanks for your thoughts GraceBro. I agree with what you say. I guess it's the bit I bolded that I struggle with. I acknowledge I sin but how can someone else pay the price for that? Can't God instead, you sinned and I'm not going to just dismiss it because other people suffered from the consequences, indeed you did too, but I'll wipe the slate clean nonetheless. Why was a death required?

You don't have a life to give that would satisfy God as payment for your sin. None of us do. Sin is so terrible that it required the death of God as payment. Therefore, someone else paying for your sin is the only way you could be forgiven. That's why we call it grace. That's why it's called love. That's why there is no more sacrifice for sins. That is what you have to believe or else you will never be at the peace.

 

[Scott Husted]

And as Scripture says Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. Grace is free for us because Jesus paid the price!

I believe it's from not before ...

 

[Ilikecats]

The cross had 2 achievements. First the forgiveness of all who believe and second the placement of all things under Christ. The choice of the cross was symbolic as it is written that all who was hung a pole were cursed, and thus Jesus became a curse for us. This atonement however was decided on by the Godhead before the world was created. There is no definite reason as to why it had to happen except for the pleasure of God. It’s absolutely stunning that Jesus would agree to suffer when there was no inkling of it before creation.

 

[nolidad]

I believe it's from not before ...

I stand corrected!

 

[Cshuffle777]

I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it

The Calvary event, aside from being the centerpiece of time, space, matter, and consciousness, is the Whole of the ultimate zero-sum equation, and is simply meant to right all wrongs, cancel all debt, and secure the universe. Atonement is not only about forgiveness. Sin not only brings death, but it makes a mess in the face of an otherwise unfallen universe. The Lord our God is not interested in appeasement.

The cross also is efficacious in providing a probationary period for sinners to repent. Otherwise, every sinner would drop dead the first time he/she had a slightly wicked thought.

The Calvary Sacrifice will also serve to ensure against further rebellion. A perfect, sinless nature failed in Heaven with Lucifer. The Edenic pair, also innocent and without defect, yielded to temptation and joined in the rebellion of Satan and his host. But a perfect creature virtuosity combined with the testimony of the Savior's scars and the story of redemption will abundantly suffice to prevent rebellion from rising the second time.

 

[Cshuffle777]

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

 

[timothyu]

In regards to Christ dying for our sins: Well, it's like when somebody pays a person's bail to get out of jail. The person paying is showing the imprisoned person.... grace. Anyone who helps to pay off the debt of another is showing the one in debt... grace.

People approach Jesus differently saying He first must be sacrificed in order for us to receive grace. A human might demand ransom or payment for aide or forgiveness but God requires no such payoff. Perhaps attention was diverted from the fact it was man, specifically a religion no less, that killed Jesus and their doctrine was designed to self justify their actions. The gentile church became no different than the Pharisees at a later point when they became a similar institution of power as the Pharisees previously had.

 

[1213]

That is not biblical. Your statement "that was possible without his death" is false.

Bible tells that Jesus forgave sins before his death, and also disciples of Jesus had the right to forgive sins, without death. It is not my invention.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

I believe what the Bible tells, but I understand if others don’t want to believe it.

If what you said was true.. then why was the cup not taken from Him...

…Matthew 26:39…

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

See where it states: "if it be possible"?
…

I believe there is two reasons. First is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

And second is:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

The meaning of that is, by dying Jesus could be raised from death. And by raising from death it was shown to his disciples that death is not the end, which then gave them courage to continue and endure all suffering that was for them.

 

[1213]

Thanks 1213. I'm a mathematician so I can remember your name just about long enough to type it out!

That's interesting. Are you saying that the crucifiction did the job, to put it crudely, but this may have been achieved in some other way?

I am saying, the purpose of God allowing to Jesus die are these two:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

The reason why it is said Jesus died for us is not that then we could be forgiven. The reason is that Jesus lived for us, he used his life for us, so that we could be saved and was therefore killed and became like sacrifice. But, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus for sins, and God can forgive without sacrifices. And by what I know, people didn’t sacrifice Jesus.

 

[timothyu]

And by what I know, people didn’t sacrifice Jesus.

Right, they just plain killed Him for not conforming.

 

[JacksBratt]

Bible tells that Jesus forgave sins before his death, and also disciples of Jesus had the right to forgive sins, without death. It is not my invention.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

I believe what the Bible tells, but I understand if others don’t want to believe it.



I believe there is two reasons. First is this:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

And second is:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

The meaning of that is, by dying Jesus could be raised from death. And by raising from death it was shown to his disciples that death is not the end, which then gave them courage to continue and endure all suffering that was for them.

I understand you thinking however... The wages of sin is death... Christ had to die for our sins.
The disciples were well aware of an eternal home. Christ didn't go through all that to prove to them that life after death was real.

 

[timothyu]

however... The wages of sin is death...

All humans die

 

[Jonaitis]

I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it

There is enmity between us and God, and it is our sin. Jesus came to suffer for what sin deserves, so that through faith in him that enmity is gone. He is the scapegoat and propitiation that removes what makes us hostile to God, and in exchange gives us his righteousness to justify us before God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People approach Jesus differently saying He first must be sacrificed in order for us to receive grace. A human might demand ransom or payment for aide or forgiveness but God requires no such payoff. Perhaps attention was diverted from the fact it was man, specifically a religion no less, that killed Jesus and their doctrine was designed to self justify their actions. The gentile church became no different than the Pharisees at a later point when they became a similar institution of power as the Pharisees previously had.

What do you make of these verses?

“Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,” (Revelation 1:5).

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:” (Colossians 1:14).

“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;” (Ephesians 1:7).

“...for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;” (Revelation 5:9).

“Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28).

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) (Note: The word “propitiation” means “atoning sacrifice”).

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:” (1 Peter 3:18).

“But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” (Hebrews 10:12).

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24).

 

[timothyu]

What do you make of these verses?

All Kingdom related. No works of Jesus, no Kingdom. No Kingdom no salvation for us. No repentance... no Kingdom for those given a second chance.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All Kingdom related. No works of Jesus, no Kingdom. No Kingdom no salvation for us. No repentance... no Kingdom for those given a second chance.

What on earth are you talking about?
I am asking you to explain what some of these verses are saying.
Surely they must apply in some way today for the believer.
If you don't believe they apply, what verse or verses give you that indication?

 

[timothyu]

Surely they must apply in some way today for the believer.

Yes, they all apply to the Kingdom

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, they all apply to the Kingdom

This is a very cryptic response. Do you believe that the atonement only applies to a certain people group or to a certain time period? Please explain in more detail instead of in a shrouded mystery. How does one apply the atonement of Jesus to their life? Can they get it by first calling upon the name of the Lord?

 

[Scott Husted]

I stand corrected!

Why and when are as inseparable as the beginning and the end.