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Why was the cross necessary?

Hmm

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I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it
 
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Dave L

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I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it
Jesus took God's wrath that your sins merit in your place. So he can treat you as though you never sinned. His marred visage is a symbol of how wicked we are and what it took to save us.
 
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GraceBro

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The Bible says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Hebrews 9:22)." Therefore, simply declaring forgiveness is not the manner in which God chose to implement His forgiveness. Secondly, Jesus was "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)!" God required a sinless sacrifice as payment for the sins of man. Therefore, only He could be that sacrifice. That is why Jesus came to be the propitiating sacrifice God required. The problem between man and God, however, is not that we are sinners in need of forgiveness, but that we are spiritually dead and in need of the restoration of the life of God. When Adam ate the forbidden fruit, He died spiritually by having the life of God, the Holy Spirit, removed from him that he was given at his creation (Genesis 2:7). Because Adam and Eve did not have any children prior to the Fall, all of their children, and subsequently all of mankind, are born in the image and likeness of Adam (Genesis 5:3). We are born spiritually dead to God, but physically alive to the world. God in His love wanted to restore Himself to man but had to deal with the sin that caused Him to remove His life in the first place. Therefore, you have Jesus, the only man born with a life to give that would be sufficient enough to pay for our sins. Subsequently, upon His resurrection from the grave, He can now offer the life of God to all those who accept Him by faith. That is why it is called being born again. We are born once physically and then born again spiritually at the moment of salvation. The Gospel is sin, death, forgiveness, and the restoration of life. Hope that helps.
Grace and Peace
 
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1213

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I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. ...
...But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? ...

I think it would be good to look first what does the Bible actually say. Don’t mix interpretations with direct words. Bible tells that the reason Jesus came on earth was to declare the good message, sins are forgiven. And that was possible without his death.

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

That Jesus forgave sins was actually one reason why people wanted to kill him. And eventually they were successful. Jesus was killed and because he came to forgive sins and was killed because of that, it can be said he was killed because of our sins.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Death was the result of his job. But it was not needed for to forgive sins. Luckily it is not a problem, because by so Jesus could be raised from the death, which gave courage to his disciples to continue without fearing death. And there is also another thing:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9
 
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timothyu

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But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example?
This is what happens when the Gospel of the Kingdom is substituted by another gospel. Original and sin in general is when man puts our will ahead of the will of God. We create our own world based upon our own concept of what good and evil is, usually to self justify our own actions. Get enough people on the same path an you have a society. We separated ourselves from the will of God.

Along comes Jesus, a representative of a counter-culture, a rebel of sorts to the traditional ways of man. He teaches a way of life that runs opposite to the usual ways of self serving man, focusing instead on others. It got Him killed as a revolutionary., a traitor to the ways of man and their institutions including religion (today also).

But in following the will of the Father alone and not His own, He ushered in the new Kingdom, and by His death was resurrected to be the first of many who also reject the ways of man for the will of God. That is called repentance. The cross is irrelevant. He could have been clubbed to death. What is relevant is how His teachings, then His death and resurrection opened a way for mankind to escape the oppression of fellow self willed man. Especially relevant in the coming months and years as the final reset takes place and a new age of oppression takes over.
 
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Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example?

I've always thought God's dilemma was how to forgive sin (which he desired) while at the same time maintaining his own holiness and righteousness. To simply declare forgiveness, he becomes unjust, breaking even his own laws which he gave Israel. But by meeting the demands of the law (which scripture affirms is righteous), through Christ standing in our stead, he is able to do both.

Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Psalms 85:10
 
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eleos1954

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I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it

When sin entered the world is separated mankind from God. The only way mankind can be reconciled back to Him is through Him. Is why God (Jesus) came in the form of a man.

100% God and 100% man.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law

What satisfies the Law? The shedding of blood ... ie a life laid down for another.

God has laws and they are forever. He is supremely righteous and sovereign ... the creator of all things.

No man can satisfy His laws ..... NO One.

So ... in a sense and in "laymen's language ".... God "took His own medicine" (so to speak) ... laid down His life (Jesus - shed His blood) and satisfied the law on our behalf ... and now through Jesus those who are in Him may receive the gift of salvation .... back into relationship with God because of Jesus great sacrifice, mercy, grace and Love towards mankind.

God is the only one who can fix the sin problem (through Himself) and has done so and we await His return.
 
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Hmm

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Jesus took God's wrath that your sins meri,t in your place. So he can treat you as though you never sinned. His marred visage is a symbol of how wicked we are and what it took to save us.

Thanks Dave,

I believe it is wrong to sin - to do that which we shouldn't and which we know is wrong even while doing it - and it seems natural then that there should be some punishment to pay for that but I do still wonder why can't God, being God, resolve all that without being wrathful and needing to exercise that punishment? I appreciate your comment.
 
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Hmm

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We are born spiritually dead to God, but physically alive to the world.

I can certainly relate to that! I'm sure I usually feel more alive, certainly bodily!, when opening a packet of chocolate-coated biscuits that I do when walking through a church door!

God in His love wanted to restore Himself to man but had to deal with the sin that caused Him to remove His life in the first place. Therefore, you have Jesus, the only man born with a life to give that would be sufficient enough to pay for our sins. Subsequently, upon His resurrection from the grave, He can now offer the life of God to all those who accept Him by faith. That is why it is called being born again.

Thanks for your thoughts GraceBro. I agree with what you say. I guess it's the bit I bolded that I struggle with. I acknowledge I sin but how can someone else pay the price for that? Can't God instead, you sinned and I'm not going to just dismiss it because other people suffered from the consequences, indeed you did too, but I'll wipe the slate clean nonetheless. Why was a death required?
 
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mkgal1

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There are different theories (as you may notice by this thread) and that's really all we have is speculation.

What John Duns Scotus wrote sits well with me: "Jesus did not come to change God’s mind about us. It did not need changing. Jesus came to change our minds about God—and about ourselves"

The Franciscan School of theology claimed that the cross was a freely chosen revelation of Love on God’s part, meant to utterly shock the mind and heart and turn it back toward trust and love of the Creator. "Jesus and the Cross: Weekly Summary — Center for Action and Contemplation" Jesus and the Cross: Weekly Summary — Center for Action and Contemplation
 
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Hmm

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Thanks 1213. I'm a mathematician so I can remember your name just about long enough to type it out!

Don’t mix interpretations with direct words.

I think that's my question. I find I need to interpret it and can't just go along with the direct words. I probably need the why!

That Jesus forgave sins was actually one reason why people wanted to kill him. And eventually they were successful. Jesus was killed and because he came to forgive sins and was killed because of that, it can be said he was killed because of our sins.

That's certainly makes sense to me. Speaking truth to power is a dangerous business. Think of all the scientists trying to insert the scientific understanding of Covid to our media obsessed politicians.

Death was the result of his job. But it was not needed for to forgive sins. Luckily it is not a problem, because by so Jesus could be raised from the death, which gave courage to his disciples to continue without fearing death.

That's interesting. Are you saying that the crucifiction did the job, to put it crudely, but this may have been achieved in some other way?
 
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Hmm

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Thanks timothyu,

He teaches a way of life that runs opposite to the usual ways of self serving man, focusing instead on others. It got Him killed as a revolutionary., a traitor to the ways of man and their institutions including religion (today also).

That makes a lot of sense to me. Very similar to 1213's point in a way. A person saying "let's be nice to people" is quite likely to provoke a very hostile response!

The cross is irrelevant. He could have been clubbed to death.

Yes, by the 'cross' I really meant the question why did Jesus have to die at all, in whatever way.
 
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timothyu

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Why was a death required?
Who killed Him and why? It was man who killed Him to assert and maintain their authourity.
Who came out on top, man or God?
Man may have killed the Messenger but God ultimately brought Him back to life and established a new Kingdom traditional world loving man will have no part of to corrupt. As Jesus said their only reward will be what they take here at the expense of others. It was man who determined He had to die then turned around and made a religion about what a great sacrifice He made to self justify their actions. God looks at these fools and laughs and shows they not only do not have the power to stop His plan, but by their works show they will profit nothing from the Kingdom.

Do you think the new leaders of today's Technocratic 4th industrial revolution using the medical-industrial complex to gain power will have any part in the Kingdom?
 
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Hmm

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Thanks Rachel,

I've always thought God's dilemma was how to forgive sin (which he desired) while at the same time maintaining his own holiness and righteousness. To simply declare forgiveness, he becomes unjust, breaking even his own laws which he gave Israel. But by meeting the demands of the law (which scripture affirms is righteous), through Christ standing in our stead, he is able to do both.

Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Psalms 85:10

I hadn't heard this Psalms quote before. It reminds me very much, as does your whole post, of Desmond Tutu's setting up the Truth and Reconciliation committee following the collapse of Apartheid in South Africa in the 80's I think. The terrible injustices of Apartheid could not just be waved away with a conciliatory 'forgiving' wave of the hand because that would have said to the victims 'all these crimes do not really matter'. But at the same time forgiveness had to be injected into the situation. The solution of truth (confession/acknowledgment) and then reconciliation seems to have healed the situation in an amazing way. We can also think of Martin Luther King's solution to segregation in the States of course.
 
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Hmm

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Thanks mkgal,

There are different theories (as you may notice by this thread) and that's really all we have is speculation.

What John Duns Scotus wrote sits well with me: "Jesus did not come to change God’s mind about us. It did not need changing. Jesus came to change our minds about God—and about ourselves"

The Franciscan School of theology claimed that the cross was a freely chosen revelation of Love on God’s part, meant to utterly shock the mind and heart and turn it back toward trust and love of the Creator. "Jesus and the Cross: Weekly Summary — Center for Action and Contemplation" Jesus and the Cross: Weekly Summary — Center for Action and Contemplation

I can cope with, and actually I'm happy with different theories, so long as I feel I'm not missing out on the one definitive theory!

I love the John Dun Scotus quote. I'd neither heard of him or the quote before. I can understand the absolutely horrible death on the cross as an expression of God's willing, perfect and freely given love and I do feel very moved by it: the greatest love is this, to give your life for a friend. I still wonder why it was necessary though.

It's great to have such food for thought from you and everyone else. I guess I'd like it to be the case that no one had to die for my sins but if they did at least i would really like to know why it was necessary and there was no other way possible.
 
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I've read and thought about this question quite a lot and tbh I'm nowhere near understanding it. As I understand it, the Bible says that Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins. My understanding of sin is that it is a missing of the mark of our true humanness which is to be image bearers of God and this comes about because we worship idols rather than God. By that I mean we worship created things such as money, sex or power rather than the Creator and so come to reflect those things instead of God.

But how exactly (or even inexactly!) did Jesus' death achieve this? Why was it needed? Couldn't God have achieved this in another way, simply by declaring the forgiveness of sins for example? I'd appreciate anyone's thought on this because I do struggle with it

This might help you:
7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison
 
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Hmm

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Thanks J of N. It was a good read.

Let me try to summarise the theories and give my thoughts on them.

#1 The Moral Influence Theory
This teaches that Jesus lived and died to give us a a moral example through his actions. Augustine from the fourth century was a fan (as well as of the Ransom theory). The Holy Spirit helps bring about a moral change in ourselves (according to the article Augustine believed this change is entirely caused by the Holy Spirit because he didn't believe that we have free will as so can't choose to follow Jesus' moral example).

The reason for the cross in this theory is that Jesus was killed because he was a social and political radical. This makes sense to me, certainly as one strands anyway, and this basic idea was alluded to in a couple of posts above.

#2 The Ransom Theory
This focuses more on the actual death of Jesus. It essentially says that Jesus dies as a sacrifice either to Satan or to God (depending on the view taken in this theory) to pay the debt humanity inherited from the Fall.

To me, this theory does not explain why a death was needed at all. Why would God require Jesus (Himself) to die in order to remit all sin? I just don't see the link there.

#3 Christus Victor
Here, Jesus dies in order to defeat the powers of evil (such as sin, death, and Satan) in order to free us from their bondage. This is somewhat similar to the Ransom view but with the difference that there is no payment to Satan or to God. Evil is simply defeated thus setting us free.

This makes more sense to me than the Ransom theory as it does not include the concept of a payment, it's imply a victory, but the same question remains, at least in my mind. It still does not explain how a death, even Jesus' death, would achieve this.

#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)
Here Jesus' death satisfies the justice of God. Satisfaction here means restitution, the mending of what was broken, and the paying back of a debt. It pays back the injustice of human sin and so satisfies the justice of God. Historically, this theory developed in reaction to the Ransom theory: it is humanity that owes a debt (the debt of injustice) rather than God owing a debt to Satan. In this theory, Anselm emphasizes the justice of God, and claims that sin is an injustice that must be balanced. Anselm’s satisfaction theory says essentially that Jesus Christ died in order to pay back the injustice of human sin, and to satisfy the justice of God.

Again, it seems to me that this still does not answer the question why does a death have to occur to do this. Why does this mechanism have to be used?

#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory
This is a development of Anselm’s Satisfaction theory made during the Reformation. It adds a more legal (or forensic) framework into the notion of the cross as satisfaction. Jesus dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. He is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) to satisfy God's justice and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus has been punished in our place thus way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice. This legal balancing of the ledgers is at the heart of this theory, which claims that Jesus died for legal satisfaction. It’s also worth mentioning that in this theory the notion of imputed righteousness is postulated.

My reaction is going to sound boring now but I simply fail to see how Jesus' actual death actually does this. How can his death transfer his righteousness to us. It just doesn't make sense to me.

#6 The Governmental Theory
This is a slight variation of the Penal Substitutionary theory. The main difference is the extent to which Jesus suffered. Jesus similarly suffers the punishment of our sin to propitiate God’s wrath but he does not take the exact punishment we deserve. He dies on the cross therefore to demonstrate the displeasure of God towards sin. He died to display God’s wrath against sin and the high price which must be paid, but not to specifically satisfy that particular wrath.

This makes the most sense to me so far in that it says that God takes our sin seriously and wants us to know that. I personally wouldn't be able to worship a God who down played or trivialised the harm we do to others or suffer ourselves from human wrongdoing.

#7 The Scapegoat Theory
A modern theory, here Jesus dies as the scapegoat of humanity. It moves away from the idea that Jesus died in order to act upon God (as in PSA, Satisfaction, or Governmental) or as payment to Satan (as in Ransom). Scapegoating therefore is considered to be a form of non-violent atonement, in that Jesus is not a sacrifice but a victim. James Allison summarizes the Scapegoating Theory like this, “Christianity is a priestly religion which understands that it is God’s overcoming of our violence by substituting himself for the victim of our typical sacrifices that opens up our being able to enjoy the fullness of creation as if death were not.”

I'm not sure what Allison means by "the victim of our typical sacrifices" here. I don't know if anyone can shed light on this or this theory in general?

So to conclude, this is obviously a very brief overall of the theories and I'm sure misses out a lot of the meanings and nuances. I still can't see why God needs Jesus to die in order to bring about a reconciliation or restoration with us and I don't understand at all the whole concept of sacr.ifice and how that's supposed to work. I can however see that Jesus would pretty much inevitably be killed for political reasons by the Roman occupiers supported by the Jewish authorities of the time for teaching a message of love, peace and humility, and this would likely happen in our own day too as shown by Martin Luther King's assassination. Perhaps I need to just settle on that at least for now!
 
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