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why was Peter's name changed?

narnia59

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It's the party line of the roman denomination. You know, like in the unam sanctum claiming that to be saved people must submit to the pope? That's only one example.
Taking one line out of one of thousands of documents and removing it from its context and the cultural realities of its time and making it mean something that's completely contrary to Catholic teaching for the purpose of what?

Have you ever visited an atheist site? Exactly what they do with the Bible. Take small pieces and pick them apart. Remove them from the context and culture. Make them mean something completely different from what the Bible teaches, for the purpose of tearing it down and proving it false.

If you want to discuss Catholic doctrine, discuss what the church teaches, not what those opposed to it "say" it teaches.
 
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mont974x4

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taken from the unam sanctum:

"Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff" (Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis).
 
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PreachersWife2004

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If you want to discuss Catholic doctrine, discuss what the church teaches, not what those opposed to it "say" it teaches.

No thanks. Us "Prots" are in a lose-lose situation here. If we use our own sources, we're accused of using biased information put out by Catholic haters. If we use Catholic sources we're accused of not understanding the source correctly.

The foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ, not Peter. Peter was not the only one given the power to bind and loose. It was given to the entire Church. And not the Catholic Church as we know it today. The Church is not an organization here on earth. It is a heavenly institution made up all who believe in Christ as their Risen Lord and Savior.
 
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narnia59

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Actually I have read the entire unam sanctum, most of teh catechism, and researched the vaticans own website...as well as recent comments from your current pope.


Spin all you want, though.

The purpose of Unam Sanctum was to define the role of the authority between the king and the church. Salvation was not found from being subject to the king.

If you've read Pope Benedict you know he said:
"It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.

And if you've read the cathechism, you know it says:
In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame." The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin: Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

"However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.

So let me ask you, exactly who is 'spinning' here? You parade around with one line out of context and culture from a centuries old document and profess it to sum up Catholic doctrine on salvation.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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For your reading pleasure...

UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.
However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.
For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
I also have to laugh because even in 1913 the Catholic encyclopedia was "explaining" how anti-Catholics like to use the bull against Catholics. But even before that it specifically states:

The Bull lays down dogmatic propositions on the unity of the Church, the necessity of belonging to it for the attainment of eternal salvation, the position of the Pope as supreme head of the Church, and the duty thence arising of submission to the Pope in order to belong to the Church and thus to attain salvation.
 
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mont974x4

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The problem is there are statements that contradict official policy, such as the clear statement I posted from the unam santcum, and more recent policies and statements...you know, like we're not real churches and not real Christians.

It takes some wading to get to the root of the matter and the real policy of the vatican.



Of course, given the popes engaging in muslim services I have 0 respect for him as a supposed Christian leader, my intent is simply to expose the darkness with the light of God's Word.
 
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narnia59

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No thanks. Us "Prots" are in a lose-lose situation here. If we use our own sources, we're accused of using biased information put out by Catholic haters. If we use Catholic sources we're accused of not understanding the source correctly.

The foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ, not Peter. Peter was not the only one given the power to bind and loose. It was given to the entire Church. And not the Catholic Church as we know it today. The Church is not an organization here on earth. It is a heavenly institution made up all who believe in Christ as their Risen Lord and Savior.
Perhaps the reason it's a "lose-lose" is because you're speaking for a group you're not a member of? And I don't mean you specifically, but in general.

I would never try to explain to a Jewish person what they believed, or a Muslim, or even another Christian. I would listen to try to understand what they believed. I might disagree with it and explain why. But I wouldn't try to tell them, No, you really believe thus and so, and then tell them they're wrong.

I guess this is my frustration, and pardon me for venting to you. But when a Catholic says "the church teaches 'a'", instead of somebody saying why they disagree with 'a', they are often told, no, you really don't understand what your own church teaches (with an implication you're blind, dumb, or brainwashed or all of the above), because your church really teaches 'b', and here is why 'b' is wrong. And the Catholic is left scratching their head, because they know their faith well enough to know the church indeed does teach 'a'. But nobody wants to discuss 'a', they only want to discuss 'b', and convince you why it' wrong.
 
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chestertonrules

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No thanks. Us "Prots" are in a lose-lose situation here. If we use our own sources, we're accused of using biased information put out by Catholic haters. If we use Catholic sources we're accused of not understanding the source correctly.

The foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ, not Peter. Peter was not the only one given the power to bind and loose. It was given to the entire Church. And not the Catholic Church as we know it today. The Church is not an organization here on earth. It is a heavenly institution made up all who believe in Christ as their Risen Lord and Savior.

Actually, the only source protestants have is a Catholic source.

Catholics wrote and compiled the bible. Feel free to accept it as the word of God, it is!

Jesus established a Church, and it is still with us.
 
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tz620q

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PreachersWife2004,
Have you read the history of Unam Sanctum? If you would please read this, you will get a much better feel for what was going on at that time and what the results of Unam Sanctum were. TraderJack and I had about a 200 post thread on this about 9 months ago.

God be with you today.
 
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calluna

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Catholics wrote and compiled the bible.
A Palestinian shepherd's voice was recognised by his sheep instantly- that is how mixed flocks were sorted out. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, and indeed, it takes a fraction of a second for a saint to recognise Scripture, particularly the New Testament.

Strange, then, that the RCC took hundreds of years to figure out the Master's Voice- and then got it wrong!
 
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chestertonrules

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A Palestinian shepherd's voice was recognised by his sheep instantly- that is how mixed flocks were sorted out. Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice, and indeed, it takes a fraction of a second for a saint to recognise Scripture, particularly the New Testament.

Strange, then, that the RCC took hundreds of years to figure out the Master's Voice- and then got it wrong!


Your ignorance of history continues to impress me!

The good news? You have so much yet to learn! Enjoy.
 
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chestertonrules

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Catholics wrote the Bible? That would come as a shock to Moses, Isaiah, Paul, David, Mark, and a few others. LOL


I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the new testament.

I apologize for over-estimating your intelligence.
 
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mont974x4

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Now I remember why I put you on ignore awhile back. I guess I'll have to put you back on the list.

If you place your ego in check for a moment you'd see that some of those authors listed were NT folks. Also the last time I checked the OT was indeed part of the Bible.


Nevermind the facts, I'll leave to your arrogance and your ignorance.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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I thought it was obvious that I was referring to the new testament.

I apologize for over-estimating your intelligence.

The Bible = The New Testament? We were supposed to guess that's what you were talking about? Shouldn't you have just written "Catholics wrote and compiled the New Testament?"

Yeah, the NT was written by catholics all right, but as always, they weren't members of what is considered to be the catholic church now.
 
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chestertonrules

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The Bible = The New Testament? We were supposed to guess that's what you were talking about? Shouldn't you have just written "Catholics wrote and compiled the New Testament?"

Yeah, the NT was written by catholics all right, but as always, they weren't members of what is considered to be the catholic church now.


The early Christians were all part of one Church.

Which church was it?
 
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