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Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

Zoii

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Your problem is Jules, that there are too many within the anti-vax cohort who either deliberately or unwittingly take no responsibility for their freedom of choice by entering the community at a time when they have communicable diseases. Those same people infect those who are vulnerable and continue to propagate those agents of infection. If you hold to the autonomy youre suggesting, then you should also be advocating for greater education of your cohort to isolate themselves at a time they are infective. But as you can see by other anti-vaxers here eg ananda, they state that regardless of the virulence of ones infection, noone can refuse you the right to go out into the community.
 
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Liza B.

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I am, in the same sense that you give up bodily autonomy when you aren't allowed to drive drunk because it endangers yourself and others -_-.

Stopped right there. That's not "bodily autonomy". That's not having something injected into you, against your will, at gov't fiat. That's simply not being allowed to operate a motor vehicle when you're intoxicated.

I do not understand how you could think that's bodily autonomy, to be honest. Bodily autonomy is: I have a right to have my body intact, as it is, without government interference. It is not: my body has the right to do whatever it wants, such as grab a machete and hack at another. Or drive a car intoxicated.
 
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Jules43

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Your problem is Jules, that there are too many within the anti-vax cohort who either deliberately or unwittingly take no responsibility for their freedom of choice by entering the community at a time when they have communicable diseases.

I disagree with this presumption. Studies that I have read about non vaccinating people state that these people overall are highly educated and weathly. I do not believe that they would be careless and enter the community with a communicable disease anymore than anyone else would.

Edit because of using my cell phone.
 
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Jules43

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they state that regardless of the virulence of ones infection, noone can refuse you the right to go out into the community.

I haven't read that person's post saying they can go into the community when they are knowingly contagious. That is certainly irresponsible.
However, people knowingly go out into the community with a cold and/or flu and don't seem to care so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I feel like that is because places of employment make it difficult for people to take too many sick days.
 
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Jules43

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I look forward to finding time to read these studies. Thank you for taking the time to post them.
 
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Zoii

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Jules you have members on this and similar threads who state categorically they would. You also have ant vax members here who have unwittingly infected others. Now... would you support a child care centre who said if your child has any infection it will not be admitted and would you accept a civil suit against you if your child, unkown to you was incubating chicken pox and passed it on to children who through pathology was unable to vaccinate
 
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Folks who are highly educated & wealthy also tend to be a whole lot more arrogant & full of themselves. A lot of them are more content to trust what their other highly educated & wealthy pals have said on Facebook than to listen to folks actually educated on vaccines. Highly educated & rich folks have been careless about countless things countless times. I don't know why on earth you'd think that them being educated & wealthy would mean that they couldn't be clueless & careless about vaccines.
 
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Strathos

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What about someone who wants to snort heroin? Does that fall under bodily autonomy?
 
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dgiharris

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I used to work in a R&D lab and then later went on to work for a high tech semiconductor company.

Needless to say most of my professional life I've been surrounded by highly educated and wealthy people...

And not one of them have ever been an anti-vaxxer.

Occassionally the topic would come up in the office when it made the news and we'd all laugh and wonder how in this day and age of science and technology that there are those that actually believe that vaccines are unnecessary and a hoax?

I will admit that this post is just my anecdotal data from my personal experiences, but whatever there it is...
 
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Hank77

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Someone asked a while back for studies showing that vaccines shed. I don't have time to follow this whole thread, but I can share these.

Welcome. Gracious, there's a lot of new folks joining this week. On account of you being new, you're probably not aware that posts here are supposed to mainly be in your own words. Now you're welcome to post things from other places, but only 20% of your post is supposed to be material that isn't yours.



Well as it says right there in the 1st sentence, the measles vaccine is widely used. In the 2nd sentence it says, we report here the case of A child. As in one child. Out of the millions around the globe they're presenting the case of 1 child. This is 16 years old. The study looks to be all of a paragraph long. I looked on the site for the rest of it, didn't see it.


@PsychoSarah did a great job discussing this in post 495. It's specific about the RV5 type of the rotavirus & with immunocompromised folks changing the diapers of babies who've just gotten it. Most folks already use sanitary measures when changing poop-filled diapers, surely ones who are immunocompromised would. It doesn't say anything about the other type of rotavirus vaccine "shedding" & causing problems




As with your 1st study, this one is nearly 20 years old. Just like with the MMR vaccine there's been millions of kids around the world who've gotten the varicella vaccine. This is talking about 2 kids in 1999.



The child tested positive for Strep & had a small rash, but on account of folks traveling & importing back measles there'd been a worry he'd contracted measles from them. Nucleic acid testing was used to differentiate between wild strains like what caused the outbreak that caused the extra vigilance, and the attenuated strain. The real lesson to be learned is that folks need to be sure they're vaccinated before they travel. It's about how folks went traveling, imported back measles. Caused the city of 3.5 million folks to have to worry about it. That's why the doctor & poor family were panicked.




Oh now for the love of all things good & holy. This is from 1982! 1982.



Well, from the studies you've posted you've shown us that worrying about shedding is about as rational as refusing to step outside of your house on account of fearing being struck by lightening. No matter what the weather is. You've picked studies that are more than 30 years old, that are 20 years old & involved a single child.

That last link explains it all. An anti-vaccination site cherry picked studies for their site & you've just posted them here.
 
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Zoii

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.People are posting here yelling how shedding is causing outbreaks. There seems to be a basic misunderstanding of what an attentuated virus is. Yes the recipient may develop symptoms, usually malaise and sometimes fever. Whats occurring is the triggering of the immune response resulting in IgM and IgG (immediate and long-term immunity). Can you get the disease from said virus - YES and NO - For the first few days those vaccines using live attenuated viruses will shed and yes it is possible though unusual for the recipient to transmit the attenuated virus. There are four such vaccines (Different Types of Vaccines | History of Vaccines) with 11 recorded cases out of the 50 million vaccinations for chicken pox, resulting in transmission symptoms in the unvaccinated person.

So you catch the disease then from the vaccinated person then??? - No. Remember the virus is attenuated so yes it may cause some immune response symptoms eg fever. You do not get the full-blown disease. This is very unusual and its incredibly irresponsible to suggest it is more than attenuation transmision and that its rare.
 
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Liza B.

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What about someone who wants to snort heroin? Does that fall under bodily autonomy?

A case for bodily autonomy can be made when it comes to illegal drugs, I will grant you that. However, it's not at all the same as the gov't injecting YOU with substances against your will.
 
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Yanni depp

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Hi, there is a $100,000.00 reward for anyone that can prove vaccines are safe. I think you should get ahold of them and inbox me when you get the 100k, i will be very impressed.

Robert De Niro, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. offer $100K to anyone who can provide proof vaccines are safe
 
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dgiharris

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I am at a lost as to how to explain a scientific study to someone who doesn't understand science.

We will go down the rabbit hole of what exactly is "Safe".

I have a drug XYZ that is used to treat ailment Q. Q is a contagious disease that spreads causing serious illness requiring hospitalization to 15% of the population and kills 5% of the population.

The drug successful halts the ailment in 90% of those that use it but doesn't do anything for the remaining 10%. 1% of the population has an allergic reaction and out of that 1%, 1% die. So this drug will kill 100 out of 1,000,000 but without the drug, 50,000 people out of 1,000,000 will die.

So, is this drug safe?

Lets say that it is possible to test for allergies and that the test is 99% accurate. So then now the drug will kill 1 out of 1,000,000 but without the drug 50,000 people out of 1,000,000 will die.

Is the drug safe now?

In any event, this type of bet is an exercise in futility. Both sides in this bet need to be able to speak the same language and agree on standard definitions of what is "Safe" and I just don't see that happening with a layman who is convinced vaccines are bad.

This is kinda a Catch-22.

In order to understand what "safe" is, they need a basic understanding of science
If they had a basic understanding of science, then they wouldn't be anti-vaxxers.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Most definitely. I would not send my child to daycare if he or she showed any signs of infection.

There are two issues:
1. A person can be incubating a virus before exhibiting any symptoms of it. The time between infection and signs of illness, or the incubation period, is about three to five days for most viral diseases.

This is why measles is such an enormous challenge to contain; it's exceptionally contagious, and it's clandestine at first. The incubation period proceeds the rash and onset of other symptoms, so a child harboring the virus can feel and look vibrant and ready to take on the day at school; an adult can set about their ordinary routine of going from home to work (possibly taking mass transit), interacting with their colleagues, going grocery shopping, taking kids to practices and playdates. All while oblivious they're contagious.

In 2005 a 17-year-old unvaccinated girl inadvertently created the largest documented outbreak of measles in the United States since 1996 after contracting the disease while in Romania over the summer, and then attending a gathering with more than 500 people the day after her return. She wasn't setting out to be the Typhoid Mary of her generation; she was probably feeling like a jet-lagged version of her typical self and eager to be reunited with her friends and share about her experiences abroad. At her age her parents probably would have entrusted her to decide whether she felt like going to such an event, and there wouldn't have been any perceptible reason to abstain from it. The majority of attendees aged 5 to 19 at the gathering were homeschooled and unvaccinated; Although containment measures began after 20 persons were already infectious, measles remained confined mostly to children whose parents had refused to have them vaccinated, due to fears of adverse reactions. High vaccination levels in the surrounding area and low rates of vaccine failure averted an epidemic. (And in case anyone is wondering whether vaccine "shedding" could be responsible, everyone diagnosed with measles in that outbreak was tested, and the virus strain was genotype D4, which is endemic in Romania. And in case the followup to that is whether the measles vaccine provides protection for that strain, the answer is yes.)

In 2015 I was personally impacted by the Disneyland measles outbreak, as were many of my friends and members of my community. An unvaccinated little girl at my dance studio was diagnosed with the measles, and her mom said she'd been cheerful and energetic as typical in the days prior to any noticeable signs of having the disease. Her parents certainly wouldn't have sent their child to school or to dance classes that day had she shown any signs. High schoolers attended school as normal without realizing that they also had the measles. My boyfriend's baseball coach was unaware he'd caught them.

2. Though you wouldn't send your child to daycare if he or she showed any sign of infection, other parents don't have the benefit of that choice. Many working parents would struggle to secure last-minute childcare, and not be able to take any time off to stay home. One of the reasons Mississippi does not permit any non-medical exemptions to vaccination requirements for school attendance is because of this.
 
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Yanni depp

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You seem very intelligent. Maybe you can make these dummies understand. Get the 100k and let me know when you do.
 
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