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WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

rjs330

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I appreciate all the conversation. But it's time to move on. I really wondered where the UR people obtained their doctrine. After all these discussions I have come to realize what I suspected in the beginning, but wasn't convinced of until.all these conversations.

The UR doctrine is based upon feelings. I think it comes from a direct opposition to ECT. They can't wrap their minds around ECT because it's too horrible to contemplate. So there had to be the alternative. Which is either annihilation or everyone get saved.

And they don't want to see people annihilated.

I think it's really emotionally based. Which shows they have compassion. Which is a good thing.

Then they look for verses that might seem to support what they want to have happen. And bang they have their doctrine.

Unfortunately they leave out context which actually clarifies the verses don't really say what they thought they said. They take verses that clearly contradict their belief and turn them into saying something that they actually don't say at all. Because they have to in order to keep the doctrine alive.
 
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Shrewd Manager

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Thanks for making an effort. You're still labouring under many misapprehensions as to UR, sadly. I hope the HS will break out of the legalistic transactional mindset, because this I think is why you (and many others) have trouble coming to grips with this tradition of Bible interpretation, which I should add has had many great adherents through history, some of whom are listed here:
Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History
 
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LoveGodsWord

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What misrepresentations of Universalism would that be? I do not see any misrepresentations at all in this thread to be honest.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Thanks very much for your contribution here.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Just wondering, isn't the faithless in general the "unbelieving" and if it is applied to Jesus therefore non-Christian?
 
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hedrick

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Just wondering, isn't the faithless in general the "unbelieving" and if it is applied to Jesus therefore non-Christian?
Faithless could describe Christians who lack fidelity (pistils). Does it apply to all non Christians? Paul used Abraham as a model of faith. He responded to God, but not specifically to Christ. I think many people today would say that there are nonreligious people who behave with fidelity, but I doubt many of the Biblical authors would agree.
 
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Saint Steven

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You misspelled pistols. - lol
Did you mean pistis?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I was not saying that it applies only to all non-Christians. I was only making the point that it can apply also to non-Christians because non-Christians do not have faith and whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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According to the scriptures, the teachings of Universalism that all the wicked will be saved is not biblical. The false teachings of Universalism has it's origins from the lies that the serpent told Eve, in the garden of Eden and that is that you can disobey Gods' Word and not surely die *Genesis 3:1-5. Then we have that words of Jesus that say John 3:36, He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him. Who should we then believe, the teachings of the serpent in Eve, or the Words of God? According to the scriptures only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

God bless.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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I think it comes down to what is being destroyed. I see it as the soul being destroyed not the spirit. No place that I have seen says the spirit is destroyed. Then we have to ask what is the soul. I see the soul as what we have made of ourselves our life what we have created. That is why Jesus said if you want to save your life you must lose it, we die to self and live to God our lives are a sacrifice to God a living sacrifice. But if we try to hold onto our lives we lose it , it will be destroyed. That’s why scripture tells us God can divide the soul from the spirit. Those who live their lives for themselves lose their soul but not the spirit.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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It’s not that UR is not Biblical it’s a matter of what verses you want to put emphasis on there are a lot of verses that support the view and those of us who are in the UR camp focus on those verses which are scripture and try to make the other scripture fit into those (which isn’t hard to do if you take the literal translation of aion being of the age or eon . Others focus on the verses they say are eternal separation or death and try to fit the other verses into to those . It’s really a matter of what you want to focus on and how you translate one word (aion) . So we could say the same thing about the view you hold also.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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What creed does it conflict with?
The point about "everlasting fire" appears at the end of the Athanasian Creed, it is contrasted with "life everlasting."
 
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The Liturgist

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The point about "everlasting fire" appears at the end of the Athanasian Creed, it is contrasted with "life everlasting."

Indeed, specifically, note Verse 41 (from the 1929 Scottish Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, which provides handy-dandy versification) @Jipsah

WHOSOEVER would be saved needeth before all things to hold fast the Catholic Faith.
2 Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled : without doubt he will perish eternally.

NOW the Catholic Faith is this : that we worship one God in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity;
4 Neither confusing the Persons : nor dividing the Substance.
5 For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son : another of the Holy Ghost;
6 But the Godhead of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one : the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
7 Such as the Father is, such is the Son : and such is the holy Ghost;
8 The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated the Holy Ghost uncreated;
9 The Father infinite, the Son infinite : the Holy Ghost infinite;
10 The Father eternal, the Son eternal : the Holy Ghost eternal;
11 And yet there are not three eternals : but one eternal;
12 As also there are not three uncreated, nor three infinites : but one infinite, and one uncreated.
13 So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty : the Holy Ghost almighty;
14 And yet there are not three almighties : but one almighty.
15 So the Father is God, the Son God : the Holy Ghost God;
16 And yet there are not three Gods : but one God.
17 So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord : the Holy Ghost Lord;
18 And yet there are not three Lords : but one Lord.
19 For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity : to confess each Person by himself to be both God and Lord;
20 So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to speak of three Gods or three Lords.
21 The Father is made of none : nor created, nor begotten.
22 The Son is of the Father alone not made, nor created, but begotten.
23 The Holy Ghost is of the Father and the Son not made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24 There is therefore one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons : one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
25 And in this Trinity there is no before or after : no greater or less;
26 But all three Persons are CO-eternal together : and co-equal.
27 So that in all ways, as is aforesaid : both the Trinity is to be worshipped in Unity, and the Unity in Trinity.
28 He therefore that would be saved let him thus think of the Trinity.

FURTHERMORE it is necessary to eternal salvation : that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30 Now the right Faith is that we believe and confess : that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and Man.
31 He is God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds : and he is Man, of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
32 Perfect God : perfect Man, of reasoning soul and human flesh subsisting;
33 Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead : less than the Father as touching his Manhood.
34 Who although lie be God and Man : yet he is not two, but is one Christ;
35 One, however, not by conversion of Godhead into flesh : but by taking Manhood into God;
36 One altogether : not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person.
37 For as reasoning soul and flesh is one man so God and Man is one Christ;
38 Who suffered for our salvation : descended into hell, rose again from the dead;
39 Ascended into heaven, sat down at the right hand of the Father : from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
40 At whose coming all men must rise again with their bodies : and shall give account for their own deeds.
41 And they that have done evil will go into eternal fire and they that have done good into life eternal.

THIS is the Catholic Faith : which except a man do faithfully and stedfastly believe, he cannot be saved.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son : and to the Holy Ghost;
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be : world without end. Amen.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Here's a web version.
Athanasian Creed
And a video
 
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ozso

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My question is how 2 and 41 coinside as far as being tormented day and night for ever and ever (Rev 20:10)?

2 Which Faith except a man keep whole and undefiled : without doubt will perish eternally.

41 And they that have done evil will go into eternal fire and they that have done good into life eternal.
 
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The Liturgist

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It looks like the Eastern Orthodox version of the creed, which differs only in that it lacks the filioque, and which can be found in A Psalter for Prayer, published by the monks at Holy Trinity Jordanville, also precludes Annhilationism:

“For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.”
 
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