WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

Shrewd Manager said:

Where does the Bible say that a person's point of physical death is the salvation cutoff point? I hope you can see a rule like that would in practice be so ridiculously unjust as to be pure evil? To the contrary, Jesus has conquered death, he holds the keys to death, it is no obstacle for him to raise the dead to life, in fact that's his business model. Do you deny the representative resurrection of Adamic mankind into the risen Christ? Everyone is appointed to die and be resurrected, some unto judgment, ie needing salvation from sin and death.

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For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own;else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:24-28 Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:24-28 - American Standard Version

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. - Hebrews 10:26-31 Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10:26-31 - American Standard Version

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:17-21 Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:17-21 - American Standard Version

But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:8,27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:8, Revelation 21:27 - American Standard Version

No where does God say that the unbelieving get a chance after death. You die and then comes judgement. It's too late.

And no where does it say any kind of judgement is temporary or punishment is temporary. And I'm not talking about ETC. I'm just talking about the permanency of being away from God and his kingdom. No chances after death. There are NO scripture to support that you get another chance after you die.

MMXX said:

Is there scripture which specifically states that? Hebrews 9:27 is usually the go to verse. But that's actually a universal statement that applies to everyone.

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Yes it applies to everyone. If you die in Christ you are saved and part of the kingdom. If you die in your trespasses and sin you are judged and not part of the kingdom.

MMXX said:

I think you should have made that no discussing hell rule about 29 pages ago.

1. All proof texts try to make a point. And I haven't seen anyone conclusively prove that UR proof texts are out of context.

2. That's said about most views someone is against.

I'd say it's more like you disagree that it's a verse that supports UR.

That's your opinion, based on your interpretation of scripture.

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Them you need to go back, because I have shown it a number of times. And not it's not an interpretation of scripture. It's what it says. No interpreting needed. It's UR that tried to take a scripture and make it say something it doesn't.

Saint Steven said:

Agree.
Here in this life we have natural consequences for sin and even errors in judgment, or behavior.

I wonder if there would be supernatural consequences in the afterlife? If I can use the word "supernatural" in this sense.

Or would we still have a conscience if there is nothing to temp us to sin?

I believe that at the Fall in the garden, the enemy was given access to our minds. The source of tempting thoughts. What would life be like without that?

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There is something to this. We see that in Revelations as Satan is removed from the world for a thousand years. When he is looses again, the nation's once again turn fr Christ and make war against him. He is called the great deciever for a reason. Scripture warns us of his abilities to decieve and tempt people. We see how he works in the garden as he uses deception and Eve's own desires against her.

rjs330 said:

Yes it applies to everyone. If you die in Christ you are saved and part of the kingdom. If you die in your trespasses and sin you are judged and not part of the kingdom.

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For how long?

rjs330 said:

Them you need to go back, because I have shown it a number of times. And not it's not an interpretation of scripture. It's what it says. No interpreting needed. It's UR that tried to take a scripture and make it say something it doesn't.

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Not from what I've seen.

rjs330 said:

What do you mean both ways. There's only one way. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. That's it.
Jesus told his disciples to go and make disciples and Paul told people to tell people the gospel.

But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.And when they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. - Matthew 28:16-20 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 28:16-20 - American Standard Version

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! - Romans 10:8-15 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 10:8-15 - American Standard Version

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So you don't have faith that God can get everyone to believe?

Really, what'd be the point of Christianity if I had to spend eternity with insufferable ppl who thought they were better than others, because "They beliiiieeve!" Well you don't believe, you reject God's plan of salvation of all, that's the irony here, and you're blind to it. You want to judge folks be tortured forever or burnt to a crisp, wait to see what that buys you in the divine justice sweepstakes.

MMXX said:

Not from what I've seen.

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Then you are not paying attention. But so we are clear. Go ahead and test it.

rjs330 said:

Then you are not paying attention. But so we are clear. Go ahead and test it.

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Not seeing things the way you do doesn't equate to me not paying attention.

Shrewd Manager said:

So you don't have faith that God can get everyone to believe?

Really, what'd be the point of Christianity if I had to spend eternity with insufferable ppl who thought they were better than others, because "They beliiiieeve!" Well you don't believe, you reject God's plan of salvation of all, that's the irony here, and you're blind to it. You want to judge folks be tortured forever or burnt to a crisp, wait to see what that buys you in the divine justice sweepstakes.

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Does God force everyone to believe? Show me where the scripture says God forces everyone to believe?

Did God force Adam to remain sinless or Eve? I mean they walked with God and still they sinned. Satan lived with God and still rebelled. Was God not able to keep Satan from rebellion?

In Revelation after a thousand years if Christ rule, man still rebels against him and makes war on him. Was God not able to prevent that?

Evil is everywhere on this planet. Is God not able to prevent it? What about sickness? Is God not able to heal everyone or prevent them from getting sick in the first place?

What about rape, is God not able to prevent rape or convince the rapist not to do it. Was God not able to convince Hitler not to murder millions of Jews or Stalin not to murder multiple more millions?

And you won't be spending eternity with anyone who thinks they are better than anyone. That would be pride and that's a sin. None of us are better than anyone. It's just that we happen to trust God and Christ to save us. We recognized our need for a savior. That's not pride. It's realizing our sin and repenting, asking for forgiveness.

As Paul said. It is a gift of God not of ourselves lest anyone should boast. There is no boasting involved. In fact Jesus said that we have to have meekness.

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 5:3 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 5:3 - American Standard Version

And dont forget he said those that pray as the publican are the ones he hears.

So it takes that to believe because we recognize our need because we see we cannot do it by our own work.

Whereas the sinner who refuses to believe is the proud one. Wanting to get to God in his own way and in his own manner. He refuses to humble himself before his God.

MMXX said:

Not seeing things the way you do doesn't equate to me not paying attention.

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Go ahead and test it.

rjs330 said:

Go ahead and test it.

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What do you mean by "test it"?

MMXX said:

What do you mean by "test it"?

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Quote a UR verse and I will show you how they have used it out of context or twisted it to mean something it doesn't.

rjs330 said:

Quote a UR verse and I will show you how they have used it out of context or twisted it to mean something it doesn't.

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I suspect what will happen is, you'll give me a counter interpretation of whatever verse I supply, and insist that interpretation is incontrovertible. And that any other way of seeing it, is completely invalid.

Here's one I came across on my own. I believe the standard argument is that it doesn't really say what says. I'll be testing you, as you requested, to see how well you can shoot it down in a clean and concise manner.

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15 as a key verse, but really all of Romans 5.