WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

ozso · Feb 18, 2022

rjs330 said:
It's because we get one chance to believe. That do any mean one chance in our whole life. Our life is the chance. We can believe anytime before we die. A second chance simply refers to another chance to believe after we die.

I hope this clears this up. I feel like people are getting wrapped up in minutea here. One chance simply refers to while we are living. A second chance refers to after we are dead.

Many believe that belief alone isn't enough. That's what I was getting at.

BNR32FAN · Feb 18, 2022

rjs330 said:
I've explained this MANY times, but there are those who seem to want to give God human qualities. God is nothing like us and he knows all things and his judgements and actions are ALWAYS righteous and true and trustworthy. I trust him precisely because he is not like us.

Like I said before, I trust Him so He doesn’t owe me any explanation because I know He has a good reason for His decision. I know He is loving and patient towards the wicked but at the same time He is also just. Jesus said the gate is narrow and few find it. He didn’t say everyone will eventually find it.

rjs330 · Feb 18, 2022

MMXX said:
To me that's the sort of disagreement that exists between a lot of opposing views, doctrines and theologies.

And I have certainly discovered in all my years that most doctrinal disagreements come from several things:

1. Lack of contextual understanding
2. Lack of original language understanding
3. Personal feelings or beliefs that someone tries to find scripture to support their own thoughts and feelings rather than align their thoughts and feelings to what the scripture says.
4. A few cases where scripture says something we just can't figure out what it meant exactly.
5. Science disagrees with what scripture says, so scripture is interpreted as story, allegory or other type of writing because science has to be correct.

The majority of doctrinal differences are not that serious. Do you have to speak in tongues to be baptized in the Holy Spirit or not? Does God still work miracles today or not. Eternal punishment vs annihilation is another that isn't that serious. Well, I guess it could be to those who have to suffer eternal punishment, but it's not that critical for the church or salvation. Should we raise our hands in church worship or should we allow electric guitars or not?

But UR is quite a serious matter because if UR is true, then what we do on earth matters little. And that certainly is not what the scripture teaches.

rjs330 · Feb 18, 2022

Shrewd Manager said:
Yes, and even more than that, we need to have a true sense/ conviction of how imperfect, impure and downright evil we are in the ineffable holy shekinah glory. Most believers seem to simply have no conception or just think it's some kind of game where they get to say 'No flies on me, I'm with Jesus'. We're saved by the faith of Christ, even the greatest saint knows that true humility is the way.

Well, the scriptures certainly to do teach that it's any kind of a game. Think if all the times Paul wants and tells and instructs believers on how we should live. Peter and John speak of it. Jesus speaks if it and the first few chapters in Revelation are quite revealing in this area.

If a believer actually thinks we are somehow special just cause, we have a responsibility to speak to them about it.

And if you think those that believe as I do, which is NOT UR are some kind of proud person and judgmental you are gravely mistaken. I am no more perfect than any other believer. In fact we are humble or should be because we recognize that we do not deserve Christa grace, we have not earned his grace and we HAVE to live in his grace. Striving to be like him. Taking up out crosses and following him. And we stumble a lot along the way. I'm no better than anyone else. I'm just placing my faith in Christ to sanctify me as I walk with him and try to live the way he would want me to live as taught in scripture.

Andrewn · Feb 18, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Salvation takes place in the lake of fire? So the satan will be saved? The lake of fire is used in contrast to salvation in the scriptures not as a means of it.

Here is what happens in the lake of fire:

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and yet is about to rise up from the abyss and head for destruction.

Rev 17:11 The beast that was and is not—he himself is the eighth, and is one of the seven, and is heading for destruction.

BNR32FAN · Feb 18, 2022

Andrewn said:
Here is what happens in the lake of fire:

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and yet is about to rise up from the abyss and head for destruction.

Rev 17:11 The beast that was and is not—he himself is the eighth, and is one of the seven, and is heading for destruction.

Revelation 20:10 says they will be tormented day & night forever and ever in the lake of fire.

LoveGodsWord · Feb 18, 2022

MMXX said:
Considering the primary basis of the UR view is that God isn't a torturer, I have to consider your statement of "Universalism teaches that God throws all the wicked in the lake of fire torturing them into repentance" as pure malarkey.

My response would be you may need to do some more research as have not got your facts right. If Universalism teaches that the wicked are put in the lake of fire as punishment until they repent and follow God. Then why would that not be forced torture and what kind of God does that? Not the God of the bible.

ozso · Feb 18, 2022

rjs330 said:
But UR is quite a serious matter because if UR is true, then what we do on earth matters little. And that certainly is not what the scripture teaches.

I've never picked up on that regarding UR. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Andrewn · Feb 18, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
Revelation 20:10 says they will be tormented day & night forever and ever in the lake of fire.

Either way, they're not enjoying a warm bath.

LoveGodsWord · Feb 18, 2022

MMXX said:
I've never picked up on that regarding UR. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Perhaps because repentance from sin and believing Gods' Word is no longer a requirement in order to receive eternal life in this world because we can do it (according to Universalism) after the second coming which is not biblical or supported in the scriptures.

Shrewd Manager · Feb 18, 2022

rjs330 said:
If like to see these scriptures that say you can be saved after you die.

I'd like to see why the 'after you die' is determinative of one's salvation. Because unsaved ppl walking around are dead, you do know that? Dead in sins and trespasses, dead to God, dead in the day they ate the fruit. But they can be made alive. Jesus conquered death and was resurrected. But you want to blaspheme the HS and deny the power of the cross by saying the resurrection means nothing. It guarantees the resurrection of all mankind in Christ, alive-o. What do you think happened up on the Golgotha, some magical miracle that you 'have to believe' if you 'want to live forever', but if you 'die first', you'll 'burn in hell forever'. I think you're living in fantasyland mate, Church of Disney. Any giant mice in there with you?

Remember the stories of those medieval morons who used to wait to the deathbed to confess in an effort to ensure they'd get into heaven? This is the sort of unadulterated idiocy you're pushing.

Listen, everything is from God, to God, and through God, so don't be thinking you can give Him anything He didn't already give you first. That's the arrogance of the pharisee.

Shrewd Manager · Feb 18, 2022

rjs330 said:
Unfortunately UR has no scriptural support. That's the problem with it. Because Christ deliberately contradicts it's claims and so do the apostles.

Ok then, because you say so.

Abrahamic Covenant. I know you don't really care about this, but it is the most important divine promise in the whole of scripture. And it's universal - all the nations. Gen 18:18
Koreshic Oath. Again, not much to you, just a sworn oath of God (ikr who cares?) and is repeated twice in the NT. Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10
Renovation Declaration. Again, who gives a rats if God claims He's is making everything new. Nothing to do with UR. Rev 21:5
The mechanism of action. I am the alpha and omega, all things are made through me, per me reges regnant...
Ultimate outcome. God will be all in all, the true gospel. 1 Cor 15:28

You must have a very abridged version of the Bible, or perhaps comprehension skills issues.

It's a very simple storyline - God promises that He's gonna do it, and He proceeds to do it. Not sure why that burns you up so much.

rjs330 · Feb 18, 2022

MMXX said:
You know I've heard that Pentecostalism isn't supported by scripture either.

Like what?

rjs330 · Feb 19, 2022

MMXX said:
I've never picked up on that regarding UR. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

It's an interesting question. But th answer is clear. If UR is true we can all live like Hitler or Bundy or whatever. We can do whatever we want, say whatever we want, believe whatever we want. We can ignore all the warnings Christ, Paul, Peter, James and John. We don't really have to worry because we are saved already, so what we do matters not to our salvation. We are saved!

rjs330 · Feb 19, 2022

Shrewd Manager said:
I'd like to see why the 'after you die' is determinative of one's salvation. Because unsaved ppl walking around are dead, you do know that? Dead in sins and trespasses, dead to God, dead in the day they ate the fruit. But they can be made alive. Jesus conquered death and was resurrected. But you want to blaspheme the HS and deny the power of the cross by saying the resurrection means nothing. It guarantees the resurrection of all mankind in Christ, alive-o. What do you think happened up on the Golgotha, some magical miracle that you 'have to believe' if you 'want to live forever', but if you 'die first', you'll 'burn in hell forever'. I think you're living in fantasyland mate, Church of Disney. Any giant mice in there with you?

Remember the stories of those medieval morons who used to wait to the deathbed to confess in an effort to ensure they'd get into heaven? This is the sort of unadulterated idiocy you're pushing.

Listen, everything is from God, to God, and through God, so don't be thinking you can give Him anything He didn't already give you first. That's the arrogance of the pharisee.

Yes we are dead in our trespasses and sin. That's why we are NOT saved. Salvation requires belief. And we are only made alive through Christ on our belief in him for our salvation.

You have no scriptural support for your position that everyone gets saved.

If you call faith in Christ and salvation by that faith some sort of magic, you are denying the power of the cross and the words of Jesus himself. The one who died and rose again. The one who said "whosever believes in him shall not perish but have ever lasting life".

God has the power to save. But he wants us to believe and have faith in his son in order for that to happen. THAT is biblical.

Saint Steven · Feb 19, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
If you are wrong then you are in fact calling Him a tyrant because your saying that if He was to do such a thing then He would be a tyrant. So if that’s what He has decided to do then you are in fact calling Him a tyrant. I haven’t called Him a tyrant at all because as I’ve stated several times I trust that He has good reason for His decision.

It's a curious thing that some can't understand that their view of God makes him a tyrant. And even turn the blame back on those who point it out.

It's clear that anyone who devises a plan that puts the majority of humankind in eternal conscious torment in the afterlife is a tyrant. I don't know how else to frame that.

rjs330 · Feb 19, 2022

Shrewd Manager said:
Ok then, because you say so.

Abrahamic Covenant. I know you don't really care about this, but it is the most important divine promise in the whole of scripture. And it's universal - all the nations. Gen 18:18

Koreshic Oath. Again, not much to you, just a sworn oath of God (ikr who cares?) and is repeated twice in the NT. Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10

Renovation Declaration. Again, who gives a rats if God claims He's is making everything new. Nothing to do with UR. Rev 21:5

The mechanism of action. I am the alpha and omega, all things are made through me, per me reges regnant...

Ultimate outcome. God will be all in all, the true gospel. 1 Cor 15:28

You must have a very abridged version of the Bible, or perhaps comprehension skills issues.

It's a very simple storyline - God promises that He's gonna do it, and He proceeds to do it. Not sure why that burns you up so much.

I'm not sure why you are so condescending and snotty. You don't need to be like that. Personal attacks like challenging my comprehension skills are uncalled for.

First of all the Abrahmic Covenant did not guarantee salvation for all mankind. It said that through Abraham all nations would be blessed. It did not say all people would receive redemption and salvation. The actual covenant applied to Abraham and his descendants. It involved blessings and cursings for Abraham and his descendants. God said he would curse all who cursed Abraham and bless those who would bless Abraham. He also said that all the nations would be blessed through Abraham. At that was a reference to Christ. All nations are blessed through Christ because he offers way of salvation to those that believe. Salvation is not a guaranteed to all mankind in the covenant nor did Jesus guarantee it to everyone whether they believed or not.

So no UR is not a part if the Abrahamic covenant.

ozso · Feb 19, 2022

rjs330 said:
It's an interesting question. But th answer is clear. If UR is true we can all live like Hitler or Bundy or whatever. We can do whatever we want, say whatever we want, believe whatever we want. We can ignore all the warnings Christ, Paul, Peter, James and John. We don't really have to worry because we are saved already, so what we do matters not to our salvation. We are saved!

Hasn't that always already been case with unbelievers?

ozso · Feb 19, 2022

rjs330 said:
Like what?

Cessationism.

BNR32FAN · Feb 19, 2022

Saint Steven said:
It's a curious thing that some can't understand that their view of God makes him a tyrant. And even turn the blame back on those who point it out.

Your forgetting that I’ve repeatedly stated that He may have a good reason for making His decision. Maybe those who reject Him will never truly repent, maybe they would only continue to bring sin into heaven. There are a number of different reasons that would explain why He made that decision. God is both omniscient and omnipresent, we are not so He knows the whole story, we don’t. Your the one calling Him a tyrant not me. I never said that if God did anything then He would be a tyrant, that was your words not mine.

WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

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