Why Two Opposites In This Forum?

[psalms 91]

In practice, Post-C’s are still Charismatic but do not wish to identify with that segment of the movement that endorses such excesses.

All the term “Post-Charismatic” refers to, according to Rob McAlpine who popularized the term, are Charismatics who have pulled away from the movement for any of four excesses:

1). Abuses and elitism in prophetic ministry.
2). Excesses in Word-Faith teaching.
3). Authoritarian and hierarchical leadership.
4). An approach to discipleship that depends on crisis events.
​

Rob, who sometimes posts in this forum, has a definitive article on the subject HERE.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

OK, I took a look and I dont think what is described is a fair representation of WOF but it does point out that there are fundamental differences and a need to split the forum. I agree with pdungeon and her four points to make the sub forums separate full forums and do away with the main forum and debate forum.

 

[lismore]

A casual scan down the posts would convince anyone what it is all about.

Aye, but this is my point. Why don't you casually scan your own WOF forum and leave the other forum be?

By having paranoid and hostile WOFers always poking about on that forum, it's creating hostility.

If you dont like the Non-Wof forum then dont post there, dont visit there PERIOD {as the Americans would say}

You have a WOF sub-forum which seems to be going fine. Why not be content with that?

 

[JimB]

*****

it is time for a change. And this would be my proposal:
1. keep the present WOF sub forum, but give it full forum status.
2. keep the non-WOF sub forum, giving it full forum status.
3. change the name of the non-WOF forum to Post Charismatic.
4. delete both the present day main forum (SF/C) and the debate forum entirely.

with that done i believe that it will cut back dramatically on the reports generated, restore peace to both forums, increase traffic to both forums, and give all of us a chance to move forward.

This is extremely biased, P. Not all Charismatics are WOF or Post-Charismatic and from your proposed “rules” Pentecostals would be eliminated altogether. In fact, when you think about it, WOF as Post-Pentecostal and may be Post-Charismatic themselves, depending on one’s view.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[Simon Peter]

A cursory search on a single term does not begin to illustrate the depth of what I was saying. The point is, it happens far more than the 1-3 times you would have us to believe.

Pete, I took a closer look at "sugar daddy". Of the 108 times, you were responsible for at least 12 of them. I even found a post where you claimed I had used the term, but then it turned out you had just made that up as an example of what non-WoF might say!

Several times I found different WoF believers claimed God is their "sugar daddy", and then other WoF believers disagreed with the term "sugar daddy".

Looks like a lot the posters were WoFers!

Hey, we must be up to about 112 times by now


peace,
Simon

 

[lismore]

The amount of traffic in the non-WoF forum can be verified by looking at the first page and seeing a total of 25 threads over the span of 9 months, or an average of less than 3 new threads per month.

That's cobblers.

There have been two flourishing threads deleted on that sub-forum within the last week alone.

I was actually half way through a post when the whole thread got deleted

 

[nephilimiyr]

Yep, and we are all guilty of this. Maybe if the “old man” did not speak so much through us we would have more harmony even on those points where we disagree.

Good post, Pete.

Yep, but not maybe, that is totally true, but it is totally unrealistic to believe that the "old man" will never speak through us. We are to constantly be renewing our minds to out new man as we keep that old man nailed to the cross that we all carry. It is totally unrealistic to suggest that people will be able to do this at all times and never slip up, never have a bad day, bad week, or bad month. In order for, 'we just all need to always be showing the fruits of the Spirit and all this strife will disappear' to work it has to be applied by all and always be successful. That is truth, but not practical, there, I got tired of typying unrealisitic...

 

[psalms 91]

This is extremely biased, P. Not all Charismatics are WOF or Post-Charismatic and from your proposed “rules” Pentecostals would be eliminated altogether. In fact, when you think about it, WOF as Post-Pentecostal and may be Post-Charismatic themselves, depending on one’s view.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

Then are you suggesting a further divide? Because no matter how you slice it there is a fundamental difference that is easily split out into two. Call it what you will but it remains that it needs done. It seems to me that this is exactly why nothing ever got done before, to much about terms and not enough about solving what everyone knows is the elephant in the room.

 

[lismore]

This is extremely biased, P. Not all Charismatics are WOF or Post-Charismatic and from your proposed “rules” Pentecostals would be eliminated altogether. In fact, when you think about it, WOF as Post-Pentecostal and may be Post-Charismatic themselves, depending on one’s view.

​

My suggestion.

Why not have WOF as a standalone faith group forum. That would make WOF members happy, they could have their own forum and get along fine.

Then bring Pentecostal/ Charismatic/debate/ SFPC all under another stand alone forum, with slightly tightened rules. Then we would get along fine.

 

[Tenebrae]

Word of faith is far from innocent in all of this. When you are interested in looking at how your own behavior is contributing to the situation let me know. I'm all for open dialogue, however when my opponent wants to paint me as an evil abuser out to get him without looking at how their own behavior is getting peoples backs up and continuing to alienate this not word of faith.

We must remember that so often in life, the only people who realize the injustice are the victims. The perpetrators always either deny the abuse or seek to justify it, even calling it a "right." Try being the victim of this sort of abuse for awhile and you will no longer be blind to it.

I was victim to this from a word of faith poster some months ago. They decided that my personal experience of abuse at the hands of a WoF church was a deliberate slam on all WoF churches and was going to make me change my mind. All that happened was that it further re-inforced my experience that there are SOME truly scary people that call themselves WoF. I certainly dont dare open up again and try to deal with the RLF abuse and try and move on from it in fear of a repeat performance from either real life or only people


As for the name being positive or non positive. It was created by the person who with acess to the Admin CP to make new forums. I dont believe anyone who posts in that forum had any say in the name. So to paint it as some evil conspriracy out to get WoF is being overly dramatic.

 

[nephilimiyr]

imho, I think this sounds good, though I presume it is not up for vote. My only concern is with #4. If that takes place it is possible good fellowship could be missed by people in different groups that are able to go beyond the barriers of their denomination/labels/camps/whatever. I've met some really nice people and enjoyed laughing together, or praying together, who may not post where I would go, and I may not go over to where they go if the in between place is removed.

Does that make sense?

Maybe someone else has mentioned that. I quit reading after I went through about 15 pages.

Ok, so then where do us non-WOFers, non-Post Charismatics, non-Pentecostals go?

Otherwise good fellowship? If you split up this forum you can still always fellowship, just not argue and debate.

No one should see splitting up the forum as a way to end fellowship, it's a way to make fellowship more accessible.

 

[nephilimiyr]

My suggestion.

Why not have WOF as a standalone faith group forum. That would make WOF members happy, they could have their own forum and get along fine.

Then bring Pentecostal/ Charismatic/debate/ SFPC all under another stand alone forum, with slightly tightened rules. Then we would get along fine.

Not just WOF forum as a stand alone forum but the Non-WOF as a stand alone as well. And change the name of this forum to simply Charismatic.

 

[Tenebrae]

Untrue. You know its very hard to have a discussion when the other side resorts to such overt untruths

Very good.
That is something we are not allowed to do. There is a forum set up as a safe place for trashing us and our beliefs.
The only one on CF so designed.

Show me threads, provide links to posts that trash you or WoF beliefs. By that I mean posts that actually trash WoF not just people discussing their own experiences and their own conclusions, I mean posts that are really out to get WOF

 

[Simon Peter]

I have two possible solutions for change:

1. Split the SF forums into 3 seperate congregations:

* Pentecostal
* Word of Faith
* Charismatic

The Charismatic forum will have "traditional" Charismatic statement of Faith that does not include WoF beliefs. WoF believers would be re-directed to the WoF forum.

Non-WoF will drop their use of "non-WoF" name and use their original Charismatic label. WoF will drop their claim on the 'Charismatic' forum title (they would still be free to call themselves Charismatic).
A trade-off for both parties.

2. Leave things as they are, but enforce the original determination (when the non-WoF forum was started 3 years ago) that WoF and non-WoF are absolutely NOT allowed to post in each others forums, ever. Which appears to be a source of a lot of friction.

WoF and non-WoF would police their own forums.



peace,
Simon

 

[nephilimiyr]

In practice, Post-C’s are still Charismatic but do not wish to identify with that segment of the movement that endorses such excesses.

And we charismatics are the segment of that movement they want to distance themselves from. So if they don't want to identify themselves with us why would any of them be against splitting this forum up?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Aye, but this is my point. Why don't you casually scan your own WOF forum and leave the other forum be?

By having paranoid and hostile WOFers always poking about on that forum, it's creating hostility.

If you dont like the Non-Wof forum then dont post there, dont visit there PERIOD {as the Americans would say}

You have a WOF sub-forum which seems to be going fine. Why not be content with that?

I usually do not. Since my return from a year's hiatus I hoped to find better things going on. Alas it was not to be found.
I would not have ventured into the WoF-excluded area except for the fact that someone from there had copied and pasted a post of mine from WoF, and I was made aware of that action when it was reported.
Of course that post and that action has been totally erased so there is no paper trail.

But you are suggesting is that it is our discovering the things that are being said that is causing the hostility and not the things themselves?

It is ok to say them... just do not let the victims know?

mmmm...


And that is a viable substitute for peace and harmony and unity?

You are usually a better poster than this Lis.

 

[CindyisHis]

I have two possible solutions for change:

1. Split the SF forums into 3 seperate congregations:

* Pentecostal
* Word of Faith
* Charismatic

The Charismatic forum will have "traditional" Charismatic statement of Faith that does not include WoF beliefs. WoF believers would be re-directed to the WoF forum.

Non-WoF will drop their use of "non-WoF" name and use their original Charismatic label. WoF will drop their claim on the 'Charismatic' forum title (they would still be free to call themselves Charismatic).
A trade-off for both parties.

2. Leave things as they are, but enforce the original determination (when the non-WoF forum was started 3 years ago) that WoF and non-WoF are absolutely NOT allowed to post in each others forums, ever. Which appears to be a source of a lot of friction.

WoF and non-WoF would police their own forums.



peace,
Simon

I consider myself Pentecostal in that the on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given - Acts 2. And I consider myself Charismatic too! So though I don't go causing trouble, yet would it keep WoFers out?

 

[Simon Peter]

I have two possible solutions for change:

1. Split the SF forums into 3 seperate congregations:

* Pentecostal
* Word of Faith
* Charismatic

The Charismatic forum will have "traditional" Charismatic statement of Faith that does not include WoF beliefs. WoF believers would be re-directed to the WoF forum.

Non-WoF will drop their use of "non-WoF" name and use their original Charismatic label. WoF will drop their claim on the 'Charismatic' forum title (they would still be free to call themselves Charismatic).
A trade-off for both parties.

We could actually create 4 forums:


*Spirit Filled (where all SF believers can discuss, debate...)

* Pentecostal
* Word of Faith
* Charismatic

But the three branches would not be able to post on, or police the other congregations.


peace,
Simon

 

[Tenebrae]

DIDs



Show me threads, provide links to posts that trash you or WoF beliefs. By that I mean posts that actually trash WoF not just people discussing their own experiences and their own conclusions, I mean posts that are really out to get WOF

...

 

[Simon Peter]

I would not have ventured into the WoF-excluded area except for the fact that someone from there had copied and pasted a post of mine from WoF, and I was made aware of that action when it was reported.

There's no rule against posting a quote from one forum in another forum.

It's possible your post you are talking about did break some other rules though.

I consider myself Pentecostal in that the on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit was given - Acts 2. And I consider myself Charismatic too! So though I don't go causing trouble, yet would it keep WoFers out?

You can call yourself whatever you want, but you post and belong where you agree with the Statement of Faith.

If the Pentecostal and WoF SoF are identical, then why do they have seperate forums?



peace,
Simon

 

[CindyisHis]

You can call yourself whatever you want, but you post and belong where you agree with the Statement of Faith.

If the Pentecostal and WoF SoF are identical, then why do they have seperate forums?



peace,
Simon

Because we do believe the same on many points, and if that be our focus we can fellowship without any friction. I believe the problems come when people try to tell others what to believe, or when they tell them they are wrong for believing what they believe.

The reason I even bring this up is for 2 yrs. I went to a Calvary Chapel, all the while holding fast to what I know is true. But the LORD lead us there for a season. What I saw was it did not interfere with our fellowship at all. There was a deep love. The leadership there knew what we believed, yet permitted us to be in leadership b/c they knew we would not cause division. We respected those in authority as the Word tells us.

If they had said we could not stay there unless we renounced out beliefs, we would not have had the time with them we did. So if one said I could not post in another forum b/c I am WoF and have to stay in my camp, there would be a great many people I could never be with here.

Won't we all be in heaven?

Will the LORD divide is there?

I could see if I made trouble and caused strife something would have to be done.