Why Two Opposites In This Forum?

[psalms 91]

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No, I was serious. The winkie was to let Pete know I noticed his choice to use the word "divide" and that I hadn't used the word divide, I used to word "split". I also could've taken what he said as an accussation that I am desiring division within the forum, as if it isn't here already.

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If you can't see that the forum is already divided then I think you are blinded. Don't you think that last thread on whether God disciplines us with disease or not showed that there is a serious division in this forum? It's an old topic in this forum that has sowed the seeds of division in this forum ever since I've known about this place.



Jim, it's hard to get along with people who characterize your beliefs with insulting rancor. You've used such adjectives as"clowns" and the like to discribe people like myself and others. That's what makes this place unpleasant sometimes.

The differences are great and a split is the best possible answer

 

[psalms 91]

And I could say, if you see this forum is divided you are jaded. But what would that get us?

If a difference-of-opinion is division then heaven would be a very small place for a very few of us.

And I have never used the word “clowns” to describe anyone in this forum and if I did use the word (which may be possible, although I do not recall it) it was not to describe anyone’s belief or any person. That sort of thing is just not my style. The rest of your statement is also a tad, um, off base.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

Againb if the differences are as you describe then why any division at all? Why combine the Catholkics and the Baptists and us and all the other denoms in one forum and I wonder how that would go. There is a need to split which I believe many see.

 

[psalms 91]

You didn't direct it at anyone specifically no, you were talking about charismatics and charismatic preachers and what they teach. And it wasn't just clowns but other things as well.

I don't know, if none of you see that there is no division in this forum then what are we all doing here in this thread in the first place? Maybe I'm the only one who sees this?

Not hardly and whoile many are motivated with a real desire to stay together I feel some others are motivated by the fact that if split they would nnot be able to debate in the ways that they have. They would simply have to fall on their own theology which most that go with them will agree with and be left to GT to debate.

 

[pdudgeon]

The differences are great and a split is the best possible answer

yep. it's past time to lay down the weapons, dismiss the guards, tend to the wounded, go back home and make plans to sow some crops and tend the vineyards again. at some point in time survival has to become a greater priority than winning the battle of words.

 

[psalms 91]

we have division and we have had division. it's the main reason that both sub-forums and the debate forum exist. that all 3 continue to be used only emphasizes the ongoing fact that we do still have division, in spite of various remedies that have been tried.

the reason to go ahead and divide the forums is to finally acknowledge the existance of that division. there are other forums on CF where these same debates can happen, just as there are other forums where bridge-building can happen between groups. but the main reason to divide is so that we don't have the problem of collateral damage and loss of members caught in the middle that we have had in the past.
Believe it or not, there are members who are just tired of the infighting that goes on here. you may not see them slip out, but the numbers don't lie. there is no good reason for us to remain in one forum while we battle our differences out to the last man standing.

These years have taken a heavy toll on all of us and caused an undue amount of work for the staff as well. isn't it time we all had a break?

Amen and Amen, this is truth!

 

[JimB]

we have division and we have had division. it's the main reason that both sub-forums and the debate forum exist. that all 3 continue to be used only emphasizes the ongoing fact that we do still have division, in spite of various remedies that have been tried.

the reason to go ahead and divide the forums is to finally acknowledge the existance of that division. there are other forums on CF where these same debates can happen, just as there are other forums where bridge-building can happen between groups. but the main reason to divide is so that we don't have the problem of collateral damage and loss of members caught in the middle that we have had in the past.
Believe it or not, there are members who are just tired of the infighting that goes on here. you may not see them slip out, but the numbers don't lie. there is no good reason for us to remain in one forum while we battle our differences out to the last man standing.

These years have taken a heavy toll on all of us and caused an undue amount of work for the staff as well. isn't it time we all had a break?

I am at a loss as to why we need to continually keep subdividing believers into groups. There have always been, even from the Book of Acts, differences of opinion and they will always be a part of Christianity. No two members of any one group agree on everything and if we continue subdividing into groups based on what we believe the process will never end.

Will subdividing one more time solve the problem? IMO, it will only be a matter of time before our group begins to fall out over some minor difference.

Hardly anyone in this forum gets more flak than I do over my beliefs than I do but I stand by what I believe and welcome your views. On occasion, I have been proven wrong and am happy to see where my logic or interpretation of scripture can be tweaked. It is healthy for me to discover this and it helps me to grow in my knowledge of Him.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[Tamara224]

Oh, are we having this discussion again?

Has it not been done to death already?

Meh, if you're really interested, read through the 10 pages of threads in the Non-Wof Forum. You will understand it's history and the reasons for it's creation best if you go to the source.



I believe that the evidence will show that we tried very hard to have a forum that pleased everyone. No matter what we did, we were unable to please the one or three WoF members who saw the very existence of the forum as offensive. [Those same members are still stirring this issue up and still using the same accusations over and over again and still misinterpreting us in this very thread.]

We discussed, at length, changing the name of the sub-forum. We never got that decided.

Here's some reading to get you started:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6764614/

http://www.christianforums.com/t6071892/

http://www.christianforums.com/t6116263/

http://www.christianforums.com/t5708262/

http://www.christianforums.com/t6098584/

http://www.christianforums.com/t7187885/

http://www.christianforums.com/t5858591/

What does Post Charasmatic mean?

It basically means those of us who used to identify as Charismatic and/or Pentecostal but have been disillusioned or have grown weary of excesses and chosen to pull away from a lot of it.

Here is a good article about it:

Next-Wave Ezine > church & culture

 

[probinson]

Nope, not missing the point at all Pete, sorry. As I have stated a few times now already, I basically agree with you but you seem to miss my point that it is unrealistic.

I understand that you think it's unrealistic. I just disagree with you.

Why is it so unrealistic to think that people who post in a Spirit-filled forum should actually display fruits of being filled with the Spirit?

Because we're not perfect? Because we disagree? Because we come from different doctrinal backgrounds? Because it's been this way forever?

I mean no offense, but those are all excuses.

I am convinced that Spirit-filled people should display fruits of being filled with the Spirit, which is all I'm trying to say.

Crazy as it may sound, when you go to an apple tree, you expect to find apples. Likewise, when you come to a forum that professed to be "Spirit-filled", you should expect to find love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Otherwise, the name on the door is misleading at best.

 

[psalms 91]

Oh, are we having this discussion again?

Has it not been done to death already?

Meh, if you're really interested, read through the 10 pages of threads in the Non-Wof Forum. You will understand it's history and the reasons for it's creation best if you go to the source.



I believe that the evidence will show that we tried very hard to have a forum that pleased everyone. No matter what we did, we were unable to please the one or three WoF members who saw the very existence of the forum as offensive. [Those same members are still stirring this issue up and still using the same accusations over and over again and still misinterpreting us in this very thread.]

We discussed, at length, changing the name of the sub-forum. We never got that decided.

Here's some reading to get you started:

http://www.christianforums.com/t6764614/

http://www.christianforums.com/t6071892/

http://www.christianforums.com/t6116263/

http://www.christianforums.com/t5708262/

http://www.christianforums.com/t6098584/

http://www.christianforums.com/t7187885/

http://www.christianforums.com/t5858591/



It basically means those of us who used to identify as Charismatic and/or Pentecostal but have been disillusioned or have grown weary of excesses and chosen to pull away from a lot of it.

Here is a good article about it:

Next-Wave Ezine > church & culture

Actually, I have not seen beliefs misrepresented in this thread so much but if I am to go by your definition of post charasmatic then I would question the desire to post in a charasmatic/pentecostal forum.

 

[JimB]

I understand that you think it's unrealistic. I just disagree with you.

Why is it so unrealistic to think that people who post in a Spirit-filled forum should actually display fruits of being filled with the Spirit?

Because we're not perfect? Because we disagree? Because we come from different doctrinal backgrounds? Because it's been this way forever?

I mean no offense, but those are all excuses.

I am convinced that Spirit-filled people should display fruits of being filled with the Spirit, which is all I'm trying to say.

Crazy as it may sound, when you go to an apple tree, you expect to find apples. Likewise, when you come to a forum that professed to be "Spirit-filled", you should expect to find love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Otherwise, the name on the door is misleading at best.

Yep, and we are all guilty of this. Maybe if the “old man” did not speak so much through us we would have more harmony even on those points where we disagree.

Good post, Pete.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[probinson]

Hundreds of thousands of posts, and you only found 118

Hundreds of thousands of posts, the majority of which I've never read, and you are surprised that I only recall one (actually at least two as you must include the reply) of the 118?

Pete, my mind has better things to do, than to memorize the other 'three' times I may have read the phrase "sugar daddy" on CF.

A cursory search on a single term does not begin to illustrate the depth of what I was saying. The point is, it happens far more than the 1-3 times you would have us to believe.

 

[he4rty]

And I could say, if you see this forum is divided you are jaded. But what would that get us?

If a difference-of-opinion is division then heaven would be a very small place for a very few of us.

And I have never used the word “clowns” to describe anyone in this forum and if I did use the word (which may be possible, although I do not recall it) it was not to describe anyone’s belief or any person. That sort of thing is just not my style. The rest of your statement is also a tad, um, off base.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

Jim I wouldn't take any offence to you calling me a Clown

P.S

Have a look at my profile Pic.

 

[pdudgeon]

I am at a loss as to why we need to continually keep subdividing believers into groups. There have always been, even from the Book of Acts, differences of opinion and they will always be a part of Christianity. No two members of any one group agree on everything and if we continue subdividing into groups based on what we believe the process will never end.

Will subdividing one more time solve the problem? IMO, it will only be a matter of time before our group begins to fall out over some minor difference.

Hardly anyone in this forum gets more flak than I do over my beliefs than I do but I stand by what I believe and welcome your views. On occasion, I have been proven wrong and am happy to see where my logic or interpretation of scripture can be tweaked. It is healthy for me to discover this and it helps me to grow in my knowledge of Him.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

yes, but at some point those two members must decide which is more important---winning their point, having their say, or being the winner, period.

if it's important to win their point, they will not have to listen to what the other fellow says, because they are too busy planning what to say next.

if it's important to have their say, then where or to whom they say it doesn't matter, so long as they still can have their say.

if it's important to be the winner, then we all know that there can be only one winner. being the only winner can be a hollow victory if there is no one left there to applaud your efforts. the only thing remaining is to turn out the lights and lock the door.

 

[Tamara224]

Actually, I have not seen beliefs misrepresented in this thread so much but if I am to go by your definition of post charasmatic then I would question the desire to post in a charasmatic/pentecostal forum.

I didn't say anything about beliefs being misrepresented.

The misrepresentation that is happening is all about the reasons for the existence of the Non-WoF subforum and the number and types of posts in that sub-forum.


And "post-charismatic" does NOT mean post-Holy Spirit. It is the excesses that we wish to distance ourselves from, not the true moving of the Holy Spirit.

Please read the article.

[I'm very happy for Robbymac that he got published, but I wish that he had left his book ("Post-Charismatic") online instead.]

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

I understand that you think it's unrealistic. I just disagree with you.

Why is it so unrealistic to think that people who post in a Spirit-filled forum should actually display fruits of being filled with the Spirit?

Because we're not perfect? Because we disagree? Because we come from different doctrinal backgrounds? Because it's been this way forever?

I mean no offense, but those are all excuses.

I am convinced that Spirit-filled people should display fruits of being filled with the Spirit, which is all I'm trying to say.

Crazy as it may sound, when you go to an apple tree, you expect to find apples. Likewise, when you come to a forum that professed to be "Spirit-filled", you should expect to find love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Otherwise, the name on the door is misleading at best.

totally agree. There is a spirit in that forum, but most of the fruit shows that it isn't Holy Spirit. WE SHOULD be able to even as adults, and Christian ones at that display the fruit.

 

[probinson]

The misrepresentation that is happening is all about the reasons for the existence of the Non-WoF subforum and the number and types of posts in that sub-forum.

The reason the forum was created was to give non-WoF members a place to have like-minded fellowship, the same reason the WoF forum was created for WoF members. I no longer have access to it, but in the old "Suggest New Forums" (or whatever it was called) area, while in the capacity of SF/PC forum manager, I posted my support of the creation of a forum for that purpose. If I recall correctly (although it was almost 3 years ago), BenAdam initiated the request, and I supported his initiative.

The amount of traffic in the non-WoF forum can be verified by looking at the first page and seeing a total of 25 threads over the span of 9 months, or an average of less than 3 new threads per month.

The types of posts in the forum can be verified by reading the threads themselves.

 

[JimB]

Actually, I have not seen beliefs misrepresented in this thread so much but if I am to go by your definition of post charasmatic then I would question the desire to post in a charasmatic/pentecostal forum.

In practice, Post-C’s are still Charismatic but do not wish to identify with that segment of the movement that endorses such excesses.

All the term “Post-Charismatic” refers to, according to Rob McAlpine who popularized the term, are Charismatics who have pulled away from the movement for any of four excesses:

1). Abuses and elitism in prophetic ministry.
2). Excesses in Word-Faith teaching.
3). Authoritarian and hierarchical leadership.
4). An approach to discipleship that depends on crisis events.
​

Rob, who sometimes posts in this forum, has a definitive article on the subject HERE.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The reason the forum was created was to give non-WoF members a place to have like-minded fellowship, the same reason the WoF forum was created for WoF members. I no longer have access to it, but in the old "Suggest New Forums" (or whatever it was called) area, while in the capacity of SF/PC forum manager, I posted my support of the creation of a forum for that purpose. If I recall correctly (although it was almost 3 years ago), BenAdam initiated the request, and I supported his initiative.

The amount of traffic in the non-WoF forum can be verified by looking at the first page and seeing a total of 25 threads over the span of 9 months, or an average of less than 3 new threads per month.

The types of posts in the forum can be verified by reading the threads themselves.

QFT
A casual scan down the posts would convince anyone what it is all about.
Someone said they were in there cleaning it up.
So who knows.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I understand that you think it's unrealistic. I just disagree with you.

Why is it so unrealistic to think that people who post in a Spirit-filled forum should actually display fruits of being filled with the Spirit?

Because we're not perfect? Because we disagree? Because we come from different doctrinal backgrounds? Because it's been this way forever?

I mean no offense, but those are all excuses.

Ok then, without using any of those excuses, and blaming others, to excuse yourself, explain to me why you haven't always displayed the fruits of the Spirit in this forum? Or are people here led to believe that because I pointed out what someone has said about charismatics I am now biased? I mean no offense but you haven't always displayed fruit. And no, I haven't either.

Apparently what you don't understand is what exactly I think is unrealistic. What I think is unrealistic is that everybody in the forum is going to play along, and in order for what you say needs to be done to be successful everyone has to play along, not just some, not most, but everybody. And if you want people to play along with what you suggest then you are going to need to change the rules. Otherwise it aint gonna work.

I am convinced that Spirit-filled people should display fruits of being filled with the Spirit, which is all I'm trying to say.

I'm convinced of the very samething. As I have said more than several times now, I basically agree with you, but here's that unrealistic thing that I have also said more than several times.

 

[CindyisHis]

it is time for a change. And this would be my proposal:
1. keep the present WOF sub forum, but give it full forum status.
2. keep the non-WOF sub forum, giving it full forum status.
3. change the name of the non-WOF forum to Post Charismatic.
4. delete both the present day main forum (SF/C) and the debate forum entirely.

imho, I think this sounds good, though I presume it is not up for vote. My only concern is with #4. If that takes place it is possible good fellowship could be missed by people in different groups that are able to go beyond the barriers of their denomination/labels/camps/whatever. I've met some really nice people and enjoyed laughing together, or praying together, who may not post where I would go, and I may not go over to where they go if the in between place is removed.

Does that make sense?

Maybe someone else has mentioned that. I quit reading after I went through about 15 pages.