Why Two Opposites In This Forum?

[nephilimiyr]

What happened at 7-7-7 was the staff was restructured and we tried to dictate our own rules through a convoluted wiki process.

And again, I'm not talking about just trying to get along in our strength and ability. I'm talking about real change, from the inside out, as we allow God to change us.

And during part of that process there were several threads opended up about how we all need to come together, get along, and change. And for a short period it did work, but that kind of thing never lasts.

And you can't force real change, boy does God know that! If He could force change in people's hearts this whole world would be Christian. You want to make a sermon; if only people would allow God to change them from the inside out there would be no problems, well, DAH! And there's a long process to that sometimes, and it actually never ends.

In the mean time we're all in our own stage of christian development, maturity, and doctrinal beliefs.

When that happens, the people that don't "play along" should then be marked as those who like to cause divisions (Romans 16:17). If it is, as you say, a handful of people on both sides who are unwilling to allow God to change them and they exist solely to disrupt the forum, then the staff should deal with those people accordingly.

So instead of being heresy hunters or Pharisee hunters you are propossing we all become divisive people hunters? LOL, no thank you, I say split the forum up already.

 

[Yitzchak]

While I understand what is being said I do wonder when practical theology will trump an experience withn God. This is more of what I call religion rather than a relationship.

I hear your concern. I think that there is room for both though. I think it is when one wins out to the exclusion of the other that we have real problems.

 

[Simon Peter]

You may think that is the problem, but it's not true.

I agree that it's not the whole problem, but it's certainly a big part of it. See Dids post about this...

I think things would improve dramatically, if WoF would accept that we have the right to not only exist, but to disagree with WoF beliefs.

This is how civilized democracies and churches operate; they respect the right of other parties to speak out, and instead of trying to shut down the opposition, they exercise their own right to speak out.

The problem most WoF people have is not that you have "sharply different beliefs" them, but rather that their own beliefs are badly misrepresented and mischaracterized...

That door swings both ways

Now unfortunately, this happens with WoF members as witnessed by people who claim that non-WoF do believe that God is a "child-abuser". But it is equally as frustrating when the non-WoF members claim that WoF people think God is their "sugar daddy". Neither of these hyperbolic statements accurately represent the others beliefs, and they do nothing more than fuel the fire in a debate, while demonstrating little willingness to disagree agreeably.

The only time I ever witnessed a non-WoF person tell a WoFer that they thought God was their "sugar daddy", the WoF person replied that God was their sugar daddy! I kid you not... Hardly a misrepresentation in that case.

Why would the mere existence of a "non" type forum not violate the flaming rule:

Dids, I am insulted by many of your beliefs, should I report you for flaming my creed?

The flaming rule is to protect people from personal attacks. You can't report everyone who disagrees with you, thankfully.

What does Post Charasmatic mean?

Exactly! It's a useless label.




peace,
Simon

 

[probinson]

So instead of being heresy hunters or Pharisee hunters you are propossing we all become divisive people hunters? LOL, no thank you, I say split the forum up already.

You don't have to hunt for divisive people. They'll make themselves known fast.

But if you want to divide the forum, I suppose that's one option.

 

[meh]

I did not mean that to make a point- I simply want to know what it means.

 

[probinson]

I think things would improve dramatically, if WoF would accept that we have the right to not only exist, but to disagree with WoF beliefs.

This is not the issue. It never has been the issue, and it never will be the issue. I don't know why you insist on saying that anyone is against you disagreeing with WoF beliefs. That simply is not true. At all.

The only time I ever witnessed a non-WoF person tell a WoFer that they thought God was their "sugar daddy", [/QUOTE]

Wait... you've only ever seen someone say that one time? A cursory search of the SF/C forum for the term "Sugar Daddy" found 118 posts with the term.

Dids, I am insulted by many of your beliefs, should I report you for flaming my creed?

How can you be insulted by someone else's beliefs? That statement doesn't even make sense to me.

 

[nephilimiyr]

You don't have to hunt for divisive people. They'll make themselves known fast.

But if you want to divide the forum, I suppose that's one option.

The forum is already divided, I'm saying split it up.

 

[probinson]

And you can't force real change, boy does God know that! If He could force change in people's hearts this whole world would be Christian. You want to make a sermon; if only people would allow God to change them from the inside out there would be no problems, well, DAH! And there's a long process to that sometimes, and it actually never ends.

I think you mean "duh".

But you seem to be missing the point. You seem to be saying it's absolutely futile for people in a Spirit-filled forum to be expected to display fruits of being filled with the Spirit.

I'm not talking about a perfect world with no problems. I'm talking about people actually demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit in a Spirit-filled forum.

I don't understand why that is viewed as such a radical, unachievable concept.

 

[JimB]

The forum is already divided, I'm saying split it up.

I am taking the winkie as this not being a serious statement.

Still it begs a question: At what point do Christian’s divide. If you believe 95% of what I believe should we divide? How about 90%? 80%? 75%? 66%? 50%? And over what issues do we divide, essentials or pet-beliefs? And do we have to take a test to see how much different we are before we divide?

I mean, can’t we all just get along? What is so difficult about accepting one another in Christ and discuss, even debating, our differences without all the rancor? It is not so much in how we differ as it is in how we handle those differences when they arise that make these forums an unpleasant place to be.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[nephilimiyr]

Nope, not missing the point at all Pete, sorry. As I have stated a few times now already, I basically agree with you but you seem to miss my point that it is unrealistic.

You also show that you have totally missed my point when you characterize what I have said as saying that you are introducing something that is "radical". This concept you're talking about is a pipe dream. This forum has been here for several years now and these concepts of your's were tried but never successfully.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Dids, I am insulted by many of your beliefs, should I report you for flaming my creed?

peace,
Simon

If your creed is so weak and your constitution so touchy that my mere existence somehow flames you... then all I can have to say that is truly unfortunate. Report away. I am not going away because you cannot stand my existence. I am not going to throw myself on a sword for your convenience.
But your attitude is part of the problem. You consider my beliefs and my mere existence as a flame against you and so I am your enemy because I exist. So you and others have a castle-turned-pillbox from which you let your feelings about me known.
Truth is, I am willing to bet you cannot recount for us what I believe, much less be insulted by it. That too is part of the problem. You have a little caricature build up that represents what you think I am... and based on that misrepresentation you and others wage war against this army of straw men... none of which have anything to do with anything I believe.

Reatly is... what I beleive and teach is hardly offensive to any sane person.
We are the righteousness of God in Him
Pray believing and you will receive
Healing in the atonement for us
Prosperity is God's will for us

If these and like things offend you and you feel flamed because of them... then you are just going to have to sit down and fume. There is nothing I can do for you. There are millions of people who need to hear the message of the good news. I for one will not stop because someone somehow sees these good things as insulting and feels flamed because of them.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I am taking the winkie as this not being a serious statement.

No, I was serious. The winkie was to let Pete know I noticed his choice to use the word "divide" and that I hadn't used the word divide, I used to word "split". I also could've taken what he said as an accussation that I am desiring division within the forum, as if it isn't here already.

Still it begs a question: At what point do Christian’s divide. If you believe 95% of what I believe should we divide? How about 90%? 80%? 75%? 66%? 50%? And over what issues do we divide, essentials or pet-beliefs? And do we have to take a test to see how much different we are before we divide?

If you can't see that the forum is already divided then I think you are blinded. Don't you think that last thread on whether God disciplines us with disease or not showed that there is a serious division in this forum? It's an old topic in this forum that has sowed the seeds of division in this forum ever since I've known about this place.

I mean, can’t we all just get along? What is so difficult about accepting one another in Christ and discuss, even debating, our differences without all the rancor? It is not so much in how we differ as it is in how we handle those differences when they arise that make these forums an unpleasant place to be.

Jim, it's hard to get along with people who characterize your beliefs with insulting rancor. You've used such adjectives as"clowns" and the like to discribe people like myself and others. That's what makes this place unpleasant sometimes.

 

[JimB]

Nope, not missing the point at all, sorry. As I have stated a few times now already, I basically agree with you but you seem to miss my point that it is unrealistic.

You also show that you have totally missed my point when you characterize what I have said as saying that you are introducing something that is "radical". This concept you're talking about is a pipe dream. This forum has been here for several years now and these concepts of your's were tried but never successfully.

I have no clue as to what you are talking about, Neph.

Maybe you have totally “missed my point.” This sort of thing goes both directions.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[JimB]

No, I was serious. The winkie was to let Pete know I noticed his choice to use the word "divide" and that I hadn't used the word divide, I used to word "split". I also could've taken what he said as an accussation that I am desiring division within the forum, as if it isn't here already.


If you can't see that the forum is already divided then I think you are blinded. Don't you think that last thread on whether God disciplines us with disease or not showed that there is a serious division in this forum? It's an old topic in this forum that has sowed the seeds of division in this forum ever since I've known about this place.



Jim, it's hard to get along with people who characterize your beliefs with insulting rancor. You've used such adjectives as"clowns" and the like to discribe people like myself and others. That's what makes this place unpleasant sometimes.

And I could say, if you see this forum is divided you are jaded. But what would that get us?

If a difference-of-opinion is division then heaven would be a very small place for a very few of us.

And I have never used the word “clowns” to describe anyone in this forum and if I did use the word (which may be possible, although I do not recall it) it was not to describe anyone’s belief or any person. That sort of thing is just not my style. The rest of your statement is also a tad, um, off base.

~Jim

Remember the weekday and keep it holy.​

 

[nephilimiyr]

I have no clue as to what you are talking about, Neph.

Maybe you have totally “missed my point.” This sort of thing goes both directions.

Um, Jim, that post of mine was in reply to Probinson who said I was missing his point. This post of mine was not me replying to anything you had said but to what Pete had said.


Otherwise, yes it most certainly does go in both directions, I never said it didn't. No I have not missed the point, I have seen the divisiveness come from both sides. I can be divisive and intolerant too towards people I disagree with. It is not unrealistic at all to see this is always going to happen. What is unrealistic is to think that everyone here is going to turn over a new leaf, sorry, it aint gonna happen. Even if it does it will never last long.

 

[nephilimiyr]

And I could say, if you see this forum is divided you are jaded. But what would that get us?

If a difference-of-opinion is division then heaven would be a very small place for a very few of us.

And I have never used the word “clowns” to describe anyone in this forum and if I did use the word (which may be possible, although I do not recall it) it was not to describe anyone’s belief or any person. That sort of thing is just not my style. The rest of your statement is also a tad, um, off base.

You didn't direct it at anyone specifically no, you were talking about charismatics and charismatic preachers and what they teach. And it wasn't just clowns but other things as well.

I don't know, if none of you see that there is no division in this forum then what are we all doing here in this thread in the first place? Maybe I'm the only one who sees this?

 

[Simon Peter]

The only time I ever witnessed a non-WoF person tell a WoFer that they thought God was their "sugar daddy",

Wait... you've only ever seen someone say that one time? A cursory search of the SF/C forum for the term "Sugar Daddy" found 118 posts with the term.

Hundreds of thousands of posts, and you only found 118

Hundreds of thousands of posts, the majority of which I've never read, and you are surprised that I only recall one (actually at least two as you must include the reply) of the 118?

Pete, my mind has better things to do, than to memorize the other 'three' times I may have read the phrase "sugar daddy" on CF.

How can you be insulted by someone else's beliefs? That statement doesn't even make sense to me.

You just took my statement out of the context of a reply to something Dids said. That's possibly why it doesn't make sense to you.

If your creed is so weak and your constitution so touchy that my mere existence somehow flames you...

Not at all. That's not what I was saying.

In fact I defend your right to exist, to preach your beliefs at CF, and I defend your right to criticise my beliefs.

I only ask you extend the same courtesy to me.


peace,
Simon

 

[nephilimiyr]

Well, ok, I'm now at the point where I don't care at all. You guys can do whatever you want, I don't care. I'm not going to sit here and be made to think that there are no problems, no division, no strife. You want the status quo, you can have it.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Hundreds of thousands of posts, and you only found 118

Hundreds of thousands of posts, the majority of which I've never read, and you are surprised that I only recall one (actually at least two as you must include the reply) of the 118?

Pete, my mind has better things to do, than to memorize the other 'three' times I may have read the phrase "sugar daddy" on CF.



You just took my statement out of the context of a reply to something Dids said. That's possibly why it doesn't make sense to you.





Not at all. That's not what I was saying.

In fact I defend your right to exist, to preach your beliefs at CF, and I defend your right to criticise my beliefs.

I only ask you extend the same courtesy to me.


peace,
Simon

When have I or anyone else tried to stop you???

 

[pdudgeon]

we have division and we have had division. it's the main reason that both sub-forums and the debate forum exist. that all 3 continue to be used only emphasizes the ongoing fact that we do still have division, in spite of various remedies that have been tried.

the reason to go ahead and divide the forums is to finally acknowledge the existance of that division. there are other forums on CF where these same debates can happen, just as there are other forums where bridge-building can happen between groups. but the main reason to divide is so that we don't have the problem of collateral damage and loss of members caught in the middle that we have had in the past.
Believe it or not, there are members who are just tired of the infighting that goes on here. you may not see them slip out, but the numbers don't lie. there is no good reason for us to remain in one forum while we battle our differences out to the last man standing.

These years have taken a heavy toll on all of us and caused an undue amount of work for the staff as well. isn't it time we all had a break?