Why those Arminians?

[ghs1994]

Why does it seem like the Reformed tend to make fun of the Arminian's? Shouldn't there be prayers given for these people, or do you all pray for them? It doesn't seem very Christ-like to make fun or songs about them and jokes. Why make fun of folks who could very well be going to hell because they don't believe in Christ alone for salvation?

It's one thing to discuss, but to poke fun is not cool at all. If God is in control as you say, then say what you have to say and let God deal with it. Why push? I believe there's nothing wrong with defending the Word of God, but there comes a point where God has to work thru what you've told them. I'm not pointing fingers at the entire denomination or anything like that, but I see it going on here.

I'm not Arminian, but either way, to denounce their theology is fine, but I don't understand all the sarcaism. Could someone enlighten me?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I was an Arminian for many years before I ever heard of the Doctrines of Grace. I was saved long before I was a Calvinist or ever heard of Calvinism. It is wrong to be ugly to people and to be ugly while discussing these issues with an Arminian brother is sin.

I do think we live in an age of hyper-sensitivity, which I find to be silly. The fact thyat many people today are overly sensitive can not be an excuse not to be sensitive of others. Some things we need to play by ear.

Thats my thoughts.
Kenith

 

[CCWoody]

Why does it seem like the Reformed tend to make fun of the Arminian's? Shouldn't there be prayers given for these people, or do you all pray for them? It doesn't seem very Christ-like to make fun or songs about them and jokes. Why make fun of folks who could very well be going to hell because they don't believe in Christ alone for salvation?

I must have missed the part where we were out making fun of Arminians. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

 

[CCWoody]

I do think we live in an age of hyper-sensitivity, which I find to be silly. The fact thyat many people today are overly sensitive can not be an excuse not to be sensitive of others. Some things we need to play by ear.

Thats my thoughts.
Kenith

Nor do we need to be held hostage by hyper-sensitive people.

A more sinister thing about hyper-sensitivity is that it might just be a ploy by those using the diaprax. In that case, it needs to be thrown back at them and rejected for what it is: emotional manipulation.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Nor do we need to be held hostage by hyper-sensitive people.

A more sinister thing about hyper-sensitivity is that it might just be a ploy by those using the diaprax. In that case, it needs to be thrown back at them and rejected for what it is: emotional manipulation.

I have to give a hardy AMEN to that.

Kenith

 

[hlaltimus]

To admit to the value of your opponent is to potentially endanger your own valuation. I haven't heard any of the Calvinists of the two assemblies I have been in making fun of the other side, but I have noticed an indiscriminate rejection of any and all Arminian opinions simply because they were just that...Arminian opinions. I guess such Calvinists would have had to pick and choose through Spurgeon's library where a variety of opinions were kept in stock and consulted! He was opinionated, and yet still open minded. Maybe that's the problem.

 

[ghs1994]

I must have missed the part where we were out making fun of Arminians. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Sure, I wish I could remember where exactly, but I saw a song based on "Losing My Religion" with an Arminian view being mocked in the song. There were a couple of others, but I can't really remember exactly where. I'm sorry I can't exactly remember, but I wouldn't have brought this about if it didn't happen.

 

[CCWoody]

Sure, I wish I could remember where exactly, but I saw a song based on "Losing My Religion" with an Arminian view being mocked in the song. There were a couple of others, but I can't really remember exactly where. I'm sorry I can't exactly remember, but I wouldn't have brought this about if it didn't happen.

IOW, that was not making fun of individual Arminians, but Arminian theology. There is a huge difference. The problem is that many people don't have a theology, they ARE their theology. As such, when their theology is attacked, they perceive that they themselves are attacked. They have no means to separate the two and realize that this is not a personal attack.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I guess such Calvinists would have had to pick and choose through Spurgeon's library where a variety of opinions were kept in stock and consulted! He was opinionated, and yet still open minded. Maybe that's the problem.

Um, um, um. . .I'm speechless!!! SPURGEON BELIEVED AS THE CALVINISTS BELIEVED!!!!!!! Why is that so hard for people to understand? I have heard several Arminians claim Spurgeon as their hero against Calvinism (once even from the pulpit). . .but, ah, Spurgeon is the great hero FOR Calvinism!!! http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

As to poking fun at the Arminians. . .let me speak for myself. I was an Arminian for twelve years. I never heard about the sovereignty of God, man's utter and total depravity, God's great wrath against the wicked, etc. However, I did hear about how terrible, unbiblical, mean-spirited, legalistic, and unloving the Calvinists were. Now, once in a while I may make a joke at the expense of an Arminian, but only to a fellow Calvinist. I mean, that song "Arminian Grace" was pretty funny. But would I give that to an Arminian and laugh in his face?!? Absolutely not! I was an Arminian and had no idea that there was any other credible way to interpret the Bible. Would I have become a Calvinist if someone had poked fun of my beliefs (well, I guess yes since God predestined for me to be one, but aside from that)? Not willingly. We do pray for the Arminians-that God would open their eyes and unstop their ears. Have you heard all of the nasty stuff that they say about the Calvinists? I won't repeat it. I think that an occasional laugh is better than that.

 

[CCWoody]

Um, um, um. . .I'm speechless!!! SPURGEON BELIEVED AS THE CALVINISTS BELIEVED!!!!!!! Why is that so hard for people to understand? I have heard several Arminians claim Spurgeon as their hero against Calvinism (once even from the pulpit). . .but, ah, Spurgeon is the great hero FOR Calvinism!!! http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

As I have mellowed in my old age, I do realize that there are some Arminian statments that really are no problem at all. Part of this is having actually lived as a Calvinist in an Arminian sea for the last 5 years.

I have no doubt that Spurgeon had Arminian works in his library. I believe that I have more Arminian thought in mine than Calvinist.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I was taught as an Arminian, but I knew from my heart that I was a Calvinist for many years which I finally joined a Reformed church (PCA). I grew up mostly as a Baptist/Methodist beliefs, then went to an Anabaptist/Calvnist church before my wife and I decided to join a PCA church.

I used to joke about both Calvnists and Arminians. I can see both side of the issues. I focus on the heart of the issue to the Arminians, "Salvation: us or Holy Spirit?" They will ask me, "What do you mean?". Then the discussion will follow.

 

[ghs1994]

My theology is quite simple.

1. God is Almighty(since you won't find sovereign in the bible and almighty is a much more complete definition).

2. Man is responsible.

 

[strengthinweakness]

Um, um, um. . .I'm speechless!!! SPURGEON BELIEVED AS THE CALVINISTS BELIEVED!!!!!!! Why is that so hard for people to understand? I have heard several Arminians claim Spurgeon as their hero against Calvinism (once even from the pulpit). . .but, ah, Spurgeon is the great hero FOR Calvinism!!! http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

I hear you, Erin. One of the reasons that I ultimately decided to leave my former Baptist church is that I had a conversation with the pastor in which he displayed a sad lack of understanding of Baptist history. He told me that William Carey became a Baptist because he disagreed with the Presbyterians' evangelism-killing Calvinism -- hogwash! Of course, what Carey had encountered in some churches, and what he vehemently disagreed with, was the unBiblical monstrosity known as hyper-Calvinism. However, this pastor did not know the difference between historic Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism! He also told me that while Spurgeon was a Calvinist, he also preached the doctrine of human free will. (??!!) Soon after that conversation, I began my search for a new church home. Praise God, this search led me to Capitol Hill Baptist Chuch, where the God-exalting truth of the Reformation is known and preached!

On the topic of the thread, I do agree that some Calvinists can display a harsh, unloving spirit in their attitudes toward Arminians. This is a shame and an affront to God (a particularly insidious one, too, in that said Calvinists seem to think that in being so harsh, they are "standing up for the truth"). However, as others have said, many Arminians can also be quite harsh and unloving (not to mention inaccurate!) both in how they treat us and how they describe what we believe.

The bottom line for me is that we are all sinners, and our sin creeps into everything that we say, do, and think-- including our interactions with those who hold differing beliefs. In speaking with Arminians, we need to guard our hearts, through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit, and pray to God for help in loving and being patient with them. I say this especially in light of the humbling fact that I was an Arminian until last year. I was a Christian, I honestly loved God, but I lacked understanding (and probably, at times, the willingness to understand certain things). Thanks be to God that, in His sovereign mercy, He gave me understanding (by further opening my eyes) and the willingness to understand (by further softening my heart).

 

[strengthinweakness]

My theology is quite simple.

1. God is Almighty(since you won't find sovereign in the bible and almighty is a much more complete definition).

2. Man is responsible.

You won't find "sovereign" in the Bible? The phrase "sovereign Lord" (and variations on it) is found throughout the entire Bible! Genesis 15:2, 2 Samuel 7:18, Psalm 71:16, Isaiah 25:8, 40:10, 50:4, 61:1, Jeremiah 32:17, Ezekiel 12:28, Daniel 4:25, 2 Peter 2:1, Jude 4... there may be others... ?

 

[oworm]

Nor do we need to be held hostage by hyper-sensitive people.

A more sinister thing about hyper-sensitivity is that it might just be a ploy by those using the diaprax. In that case, it needs to be thrown back at them and rejected for what it is: emotional manipulation.

Exactly

 

[Seaioth]

I confess I tend to get provoked and irrirated at times, because I cannot see how an Arminan can ever be truly sanctified; hindered by this conformed, and deluded man-centered theology.. argh before I go on a ranting and displeasing to God, though correct statement... look to self... okay... my statements may seem to belittle them, and for that I need to repent. But sometimes we put took much confidence in our own intellect or persuasive rhetoric to attempt to explain logically why God predestines, elects, especially that of limited attonement, and God's Absolute Sovereignty and Holy Love. Praise God, that you have pointing this out, as all our hearts and minds are in fact a continous factory of sin, it is so easy to forget the grace and mercy God has shown us through His Son and unveiling our eyes to the awesome truths found in the five points. It is not right to laugh at them, mock them, if we are upset because we tried to share biblical way and they disagree, it is because they are in the dark. We need not lash out or become embittered or prideful in ourselves for that matter, for that is all unpleasing to God. Rather speak to them the Word, and if they disagree and go off tangents, it is their own sanctification at stake.

I shall make a list of why I get provoked:

(Get tired of hearing reformed and godly people getting labeled as legalistic, close-minded, intolerant, self-righteous,etc. when it is not true, by the Arminians (or might I say 1 point Calvinists, guess which point =p)

1) Seeing fellow believers (though Arminian) stumble in their sin and go through this effusive ritual of recommitment and only to do it again and again (don't we all sometimes though)

2) Get afraid that faith becomes mostly maintained out of spiritual pride and deep animosity for the falsehood, so much that it corrupts and hinders ability to behave in a manner acceptable to God (Romans 12:1-2)

Lets get accused of being lovers of sinners alright? Without compromising...

To Him alone be the glory.

 

[Seaioth]

My theology is quite simple.

1. God is Almighty(since you won't find sovereign in the bible and almighty is a much more complete definition).

2. Man is responsible.

Would you consider yourself a Molinist then? (Not to disagree with what you said, though it is very broad, which is dangerous)

 

[CCWoody]

1) Seeing fellow believers (though Arminian) stumble in their sin and go through this effusive ritual of recommitment and only to do it again and again (don't we all sometimes though)

Ah, the Protestanized version of the Roman Catholic sacrament of Pennance.

 

[ghs1994]

You won't find "sovereign" in the Bible? The phrase "sovereign Lord" (and variations on it) is found throughout the entire Bible! Genesis 15:2, 2 Samuel 7:18, Psalm 71:16, Isaiah 25:8, 40:10, 50:4, 61:1, Jeremiah 32:17, Ezekiel 12:28, Daniel 4:25, 2 Peter 2:1, Jude 4... there may be others... ?

Hmm..which version do you have? I'm curious because I did a search for that word on Biblegateway and came up with zero, I think I did the search within the guidelines of the KJV. I'll check out those verses you talked about. But Almighty gives a much more complete definition of complete control than sovereign.

 

[ghs1994]

Would you consider yourself a Molinist then? (Not to disagree with what you said, though it is very broad, which is dangerous)

I really not very educated concerning what a Molinist is. It's not broad if you knew me, but it is the realization of all the study I've done comes down to those simple two points with Christ being in the middle of them. My theology is completely based on what the Spirit has taught me in scripture. I am not in need of anyone to teach me(1 John 2:27), although I do seek people's opinions and theology. My theology goes much deeper than those two points, but I'm not on Calvin's side completely and definitely not on all of Arminian's side of things either. I don't base my theology on them, but on what I've been taught and learned. If my theology lines up with some of them, fine. If not, oh well. It's all good. I'm responsible before God for me and the others I teach. He will judge, but no one else unless I'm just absolutely slaughtering the Word of God, which I'm not.