Why There Cannot Be Predestination

edb19 said:

Amen - we serve an awesome, holy and fully sovereign God. He has a perfect plan and perfect will for each of us.

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...as long as we are "elect", as long as when God rolled the dice our number came up...otherwise, sorry about your luck.

Since it's taught that God is no respecter of persons and that election is arbitrary-God's random decisions, then it really is a matter of luck from our end. He puts his hand into the lottery bin and pulls out a number and "HEY MrJim, you're a winner!" and "Hey MrJim, your two sons are losers!".

Yeah, that's a real sweet deal there...my boys only have a shot if they won some holy crapshoot. Been better off not having children if I believed this...

MrJim said:

...as long as we are "elect", as long as when God rolled the dice our number came up...otherwise, sorry about your luck.

Since it's taught that God is no respecter of persons and that election is arbitrary-God's random decisions, then it really is a matter of luck from our end. He puts his hand into the lottery bin and pulls out a number and "HEY MrJim, you're a winner!" and "Hey MrJim, your two sons are losers!".

Yeah, that's a real sweet deal there...my boys only have a shot if they won some holy crapshoot. Been better off not having children if I believed this...

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Yeah, and it would be a much better deal if we served a god who had his plans foiled (after all he wants everyone to be saved, but all won't be ...), a god who died for the sins of some, yet somehow that was not enough to save them.

I mean, we limit the scope of Jesus' atonement, but much worse, much more detestable, is the fact that you limit its power. His blood is not enough to save us, it is not payment enough. We have to add to it, we have to do more with it.

Not only that, but if god made you wise/smart/good/lucky enough to choose him, why didn't he make everyone just as wise/smart/good/lucky? What is it in you that made you willing to accept that others do not have?

MrJim said:

...as long as we are "elect", as long as when God rolled the dice our number came up...otherwise, sorry about your luck.

Since it's taught that God is no respecter of persons and that election is arbitrary-God's random decisions, then it really is a matter of luck from our end. He puts his hand into the lottery bin and pulls out a number and "HEY MrJim, you're a winner!" and "Hey MrJim, your two sons are losers!".

Yeah, that's a real sweet deal there...my boys only have a shot if they won some holy crapshoot. Been better off not having children if I believed this...

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We cannot ignore Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 which focuses on "Predestination" People can selectively choose the verses that pleases us our concerns of the topic of "election". We are creatures that we cannot and should not choose to twist the scriptures of the doctrine of election. There is a place for human freewill which is whether they respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. Without the Holy Spirit is TOTAL DEPRAVITY". The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved.

Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc).

First and foremost, as often reiterated in the various threads on election, we don't know who the elect are. We evangelize, we share the gospel as if all are elect and trust in the work of the Holy Spirit.

As far as salvation being a crapshoot, I'd much rather trust in the wisdom and perfection of the God who spoke the universe into being with a word, the God before whom mountains melt at the sound of His voice, the God to whom every knee WILL bow, the God who had the perfect plan for our salvation from before time than trust in the very fickle, very weak, very limited emotions of man. That is limiting as some would think, rather it is immensely freeing knowing that God perfectly provides the means to the end. We are saved from God, by God, for the glory of God.

-been better off not having children if I believed it was a lottery or "arbitrary" Divine selection...why take the chance-and chance is what it is. Consider it from a pastoral perspective trying to explain it to someone whose child has died...

MrJim said:

-been better off not having children if I believed it was a lottery or "arbitrary" Divine selection...why take the chance-and chance is what it is. Consider it from a pastoral perspective trying to explain it to someone whose child has died...

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I've lost a child - I'm extremely comfortable with trusting God's grace and mercy in the life of that child. Knowing that I have a cancer that can't be cured I'm equally comfortable with His grace and mercy in my life. Again, I'd much rather trust in God's holiness and mercy than the "arbitrary" nature of human emotion.

BTW - you're taking the same chance with a "free will" decision. Why take a chance when your child might not "choose" God?

Matthan said:

Josh, I am going to respond to the first part of your post in order to keep my response short and hopefully try to show you the truth.

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Responding, in short, to 22 extracts of scripture that deal with different themes of your statements, would require tremendous skill.

Matthan said:

You cited John 1:13 as an attempt to illustrate that man does not have free will.

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Not as an attempt to illustrate how man doesn’t have “free will”, (that I did with the other passages), but to illustrate how your concept of “free will” plays no “part” in being born again: -- “… nor of the will of man… ”

Matthan said:

So, let's look at that verse along with the preceding verse:

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Your interpretation

Matthan said:

"But as many as received him, [those who received Him (believed in Him) freely chose on their own to do so]

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My interpretation

but [exception] as many as [object] received [passive verb] him [product;subject]

“But…” -- exception to previous absolute statement: “…his own received him not.” [1:11]

“…as many as…” -- pronoun: “his own” [1:11]

“…received…” -- verb: ‘to obtain’ or ‘get’; passive verb (transitive verb). Whatever is received has been given in active voice.

“…him…” -- pronoun: the eternal Word God [1:1]; Creator [1:3]; Jesus [1:14]

“…as many as received him…” -- “as many as” is the object; “received” is the action and “him” is the subject and product of the action*, because the action is an active verb in passive form (i.e. passive=obtain; active=give). The extract can be read as both: those who (obtained) him [from God], and: he who was (given) unto them [by God].

*because the product and subject are synonymous, Jesus is God.

“[those…” -- Agreed. Haven’t specified pronoun though.

“who received Him (believed in Him) ” -- Disagreed. Receive, literally means to “get” or “obtain”, not “believe”.

“freely chose on their own to do so]” -- Disagreed. The extract does not indicate how “[his own] received him”. You cannot say or imply that from this isolated context.

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Your Interpretation

Matthan said:

to them gave he power to become the sons of God,[God gave each of them His grace through the Holy Spirit]

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My Interpretation

to [prep.] them [object] gave [active verb] he [subject] power [product] to become the Sons of God [function of product]

“…to them…” -- pronoun: “as man as” - “his own”

“…gave…” -- active verb (transitive verb)

“…he…” -- pronoun: “Jesus” [1:14]

“…to them gave he…” -- Jesus gave them

“…power to become…” -- Power (or ability) of God was required to be utilised for something.

“…the sons of God,…” -- “…the sons of God,…” -- In a literal sense, denotes one who has a relation to God in natality, descent or adoption, to mean a bond or relation with God. (Son of God, Child of God, Born of God, begotten of God, Adopted of God, heir of God, etc. denote essentially the same thing.)

“[God gave each of them His grace through the Holy Spirit]” -- Disagreed. The Power* was given by the “him” of the previous extract, Christ Jesus, and not the Holy Spirit.

*Power literally means “ability” or “privilege”, not grace (unmerited-merited favour of God).

“…even to them that believe on his name:…” -- [Also] to them that believe on his name. So it was not only those who received Christ, but also believed on his name, that he was of course the Messiah God come in the flesh.

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Your Interpretation:

Matthan said:

even to them that believe on his name:[all they had to do was just believe on His holy Name, another function of their own free will]

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Man, nothing here implies choice that is undetermined. You honestly cannot make this assumption from this extract. I see this all the time. Christians who believe in free will generally resort to this argument: choice is an example of free choice. That is such a contradiction.

Your interpretation

Matthan said:

13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [They were "born", or born again, in the Spirit of God (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because of their own belief, which was a function of their own free will, because they chose to believe in Jesus), and that new birth was not of blood, nor of the will of either flesh or man because man can do nothing to secure his own salvation. Man can do the work of God (see John 6:29), or his own works, again because of his own free will. However, our justification by God is strictly by the will of God]

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My interpretation

“Which…” -- pronoun: “his own”, specifying those who were given Christ, believed on his name and who were given the ability to become the Sons of God
“Which were born, born, not of blood…” -- descent and relation

“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;” [Acts 17:26]

“born,… nor of the will of the flesh…” -- deeds of the body, desires and purposes

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” [Romans 8:13]

This would probably include the rituals and ceremonies of water baptisms and purifications, circumcisions, communions, gatherings, etc.

“born,… not of the will of man…” -- deeds of the human intellect

The human will, which you believe is free from sin and death, has no part in the inheritance, belief, love, hope, grace, and Christ we have received. We are his people... he knew us... he chose us before we knew him or even loved or beleived in him. And not just because he knows everything, but because he created all, and by him all things are held together... time, space, energy and matter... and whatever else you want to call everything. God created it. If it offends you, it is because your will is like King herod, and will do everything it can to be "KING". Our wills will come into absolute subjection when we are in ehaven. No partiality. No hate or sin or death. The flesh and the will of man will perish. There will be no will of man in heaven. Amen.

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” [Genesis 6:5]

“Which were born… of God” -- Brought fourth from God.

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born… of God” [John 1:12-13]

1) “his own” were given Christ;

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” [John 17:2]

2) “his own” were given the inheritance, and

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” [Romans 8:16-17]

3) Because “his own” were born of God.

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Matthan said:

“[They were "born", or born again, in the Spirit of God (by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because of their own belief,”

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You can’t say “saving faith” comes before the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God, because faith is a fruit of the “Spirit of God” - Galatians 5:22.

Matthan said:

“which was a function of their own free will, because they chose to believe in Jesus),”

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You haven’t defended your belief sufficient to maintain that your belief in “free will” is logical. And faith is not a function of the will of man. Faith is Holy and the will of man is not.

Matthan said:

“and that new birth was not of blood, nor of the will of either flesh or man because man can do nothing to secure his own salvation.”

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Because salvation requires faith, and you say faith is a function of the human will, you contradict yourself by saying that the will of man is not required for being born again.

Matthan said:

“Man can do the work of God (see John 6:29), or his own works, again because of his own free will.”

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“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” [John 6:29]

The work of God is called “the work of God” because it is “the work of God.” Romans clear up that it is in fact by imputation of this “work of God” or “righteousness of God” that we do the “will of God”. Imputation (covering).

Man does not believe because of his carnality (intellect), he does the work of God because of the work of God, which is exclusively Jesus and nothing else.

Matthan said:

“However, our justification by God is strictly by the will of God]”

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If it were, and you hold that faith is the fruit of the will of man… it does not seam that way.

Matthan said:

For you to say that the Hebrew people did not repeatedly exercise their own free will and turn away from God, with all of the examples in OT Scripture where they did exactly that, has to be a product of your youth and inexperience.

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You have falsely accused me Sir. I never said, nor did I imply that the will of man is free from the tyranny of sin. What a ghastly thought. Just to think… if the will of man were free from sin and death… there would be no need for the law of the spirit which is in Christ, to set us free from the tyranny of sin and death. If our will was free, then we would be less than conquerors through him that loved us?

“Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.” [Romans 8:37]

Matthan said:

The Jewish people repeatedly rebelled against God. They freely chose to do what they wanted to do, and not what He wanted them to do.

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Nothing of what I said should’ve lead you to this conclusion. I never denied that the Jews of Israel had a will, I denied that it was “free”.

Matthan said:

But, if He had created them without also giving them free-will, as you maintain, then it would have been impossible for them to rebel against Him.

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“And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” [Colossians 1:17]

“And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:24-26

Matthan said:

Oh, and please do not reply with "images" representing God. I personally find it very offensive because I feel that is FORBIDDEN by God, and a sin I would rather avoid.

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It is a sin to “worship” or “consecrate” a graven image. I intended no such thing.

Matthan said:

Hey, you believe what you want, and I will do the same.

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“Josh, I am going to respond to the first part of your post in order to keep my response short and hopefully try to show you the truth.”

You have failed to show me a reasonable argument in favour of free will and chosen 1 of 22 passages I quoted in the previous post to do this. If you want to place even a dent in the mind of this arrogant youth, you will need to address all that I have given you, with logical and concise arguments.

But I will admit that this has been a tiresome and almost pointless exercise... The previous post was sufficient enough. I didn't need to respond to this post. I shouldn't have... after all you refused to deal with ALL that scripture. And at the same time accused me of being all human intellectually bent.

Matthan said:

Matthan

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Josh

PETE_ said:

"of His own will He brought us forth (birthed us) by the word of truth" (Jas. 1:18)​

How much of a part did you have in willing your own physical conception? None! Your parents conceived you by their own wills. As it is with physical birth, so it is with spiritual birth. You didn't ask to be birthed. The Father birthed you.​

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JimfromOhio said:

Man's choice to be saved is flesh's work while the Holy Spirit prick and convicted a person to repent and saved is the work of the Holy Spirit. God's gifts is God's work, not ours.

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Another

edb19 said:

I've lost a child - I'm extremely comfortable with trusting God's grace and mercy in the life of that child. Knowing that I have a cancer that can't be cured I'm equally comfortable with His grace and mercy in my life. Again, I'd much rather trust in God's holiness and mercy than the "arbitrary" nature of human emotion.

BTW - you're taking the same chance with a "free will" decision. Why take a chance when your child might not "choose" God?

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Because then it becomes more than just cosmic dice...

DMagoh said:

Both Calvinist and non-Calvinists believe their beliefs are scripturally based. We really dont need these threads. Calvinists quote their verses, we quote ours, and we both think the other side is misinterpreting the other's verses. All we're doing is damaging the body of Christ.

Jesus, while agonizing in the Garden about what He was about to suffer, prayed for all of us:

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." John 17:20-23

Can we honor our Savior by agreeing on the main thing - that we are sinners, Jesus died for us, we are to live for Him, and work to bring others into the Kingdom?

I hereby formally apologize for any sarcasm, poking fun, jesting, and/or biting comments I have posted in the past. I love each of you as brothers in Christ and I am sorry for my part in us not being in complete unity.

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Greatings dear brother in the Name of Jesus Christ

I wanted to just thank you for your concern that this thread follow meekness and kindness. We shouldn't have to compromise such things.

Even as the scriptures say:

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." [2 Timothy 2:24-26]

So, this unity-agreement is Spiritual, right. God is Spiritual and the things of God are spiritual. And when Christ, with much loudness and crying, made prayers and supplications for his sheep, in amongst his beautiful words he said: "Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us... " And this is the habitation for God's people. He so wants us to be with him, but not on earth brother. God is going to leave earth in the book of revalations, and our purpose here is to preach the Gospel as much as we can before he leaves ... The unity that is so precious, I know brother... I also long to be at one with my brethrem, but it will be in heaven with Christ

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:6-10

So be careful. Don't let your desire for this cloud your purpose, and that is to preach the Gospel of Christ and him crucified... because without this message there can be no unity nor can there be any salvation at all. Make Jesus' message of "offence" your uttermost priority. It will cleanse and purify you... it will polish and mature you. It will also bring a temproral sense of unity and peace on earth. Remember, that as long as God's spirit is on earth, there will be a sense of order... so we can work during this time, but when he leaves, anarchy will be let loose.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." [Romans 1:16]

You asked us brother: "Can we honor our Savior by agreeing on the main thing - that we are sinners, Jesus died for us, we are to live for Him, and work to bring others into the Kingdom? "

The answer is no, because we do not have the same basic beliefs. What we believe about sin is different... what we believe about Jesus is different... how we believe we must live for him is different... and how we believe our work brings people into the kingdom is also different. Our message we preach is different.

I leave you with Pauls words. And they may seam harsh, but please brother, understand what God's agenda truly is in these few days we have left on planet earth:

"That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" [Romans 1:12-18]

The rest is in Christ

Peace and grace

Josh

edb19 said:

First and foremost, as often reiterated in the various threads on election, we don't know who the elect are.

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Just wanted to quote this one sentence. If "we don't know who the elect are" then how can we know that "WE" are saved?

Psalm 106:8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

How does anyone know they are saved?

Because they come to a repentance in Christ. If they dont, they arent elect, if they do they are.

MrJim said:

-been better off not having children if I believed it was a lottery or "arbitrary" Divine selection...why take the chance-and chance is what it is. Consider it from a pastoral perspective trying to explain it to someone whose child has died...

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Since I dealt with disabilities as one of my daughters is mentally disabled. I always believed that Infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all others who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. In Luke 18:15-17, People were also bringing babies to Jesus to have him touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters.

“Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!” (Rom 11:33)

TwinCrier said:

Just wanted to quote this one sentence. If "we don't know who the elect are" then how can we know that "WE" are saved?

Psalm 106:8 Nevertheless he saved them for his name's sake, that he might make his mighty power to be known.
Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

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The question is not whether you are sure that you are one of the elected. The question is this: Are you sure you KNOW for sure you are saved? The bottom line is that Christians follow doctrines according to the Holy Spirit's conviction. The Holy Spirit gave me assurance of my faith and doctrines I follow. No Church, No Denomination, No pastors or anyone can do this for me. Holy Spirit is the ONLY person who can do this. In 2 Timothy 2:19 reminded us that God sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his"

If I am not a KJVOnly Believer does not mean I am not a Christian is no different that I follow Calvinism doctrines mean I am a Christian. You are a Christian when the Holy Spirit seals your heart for eternal life.

JacobHall86 said:

How does anyone know they are saved?

Because they come to a repentance in Christ. If they dont, they arent elect, if they do they are.

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In summary, that's the basic concept.

Matthan said:

God does not predestine anyone to either Heaven or hell, but instead permits every person to use his own free will to obtain either of those two destinations.

(Please read carefully)

Why is this so? Because if God did foreordain certain specific individuals to eternal salvation, then that would necessarily and logically require that He also foreordain other individuals to eternal torment. This would be true even if the ultimate reason were by either His action or His own omission (intentional or unintentional withholding of His grace).

Regardless, we have absolute proof that He does neither of these, but instead permits all men to either develop a sufficient degree of belief in Him, or not. Man, by the use of his own free will, can either do the work of God (John 6:29), or do his own sinful work.

This is an absolute certainty, and is proven by Scripture. The proof is found in Revelation (11:18; 20:12-15) The last of those verses reads:



So, where is the proof? It is found in God’s judgement. If He foreordained some to Heaven, and the rest were logically foreordained to hell, THEN OUR GOD WOULD NECESSARILY HAVE TO JUDGE HIS OWN ACTIONS AGAINST THE DEAD BECAUSE HE FOREORDAINED THEM TO THAT END. HE WOULD HAVE TO JUDGE HIMSELF!

Now, some might claim that He foreordains certain individuals to salvation but does nothing with respect of everybody else. That would not be scriptural because God repeatedly tells us He is no respecter of any person. Just as importantly, that would not be logical since it would then be possible for some of those individuals, if left unhindered by God, to find faith in Jesus and get to Heaven, but without God’s predestination. But that would simply not be possible if predestination were factual. Only people He foreordained to Heaven would actually get into Heaven. Therefore, predestination to Heaven necessarily requires predestination to hell. And, if God predestines some to hell, and if there is a great judgement of each of those lost souls, then it logically requires that God judge Himself for His own actions since those lost souls would not be lost were it not for His own hindering actions.

Therefore, God's omniscience or pre-knowledge does not and can not mean His preordination or predestination.

Matthan

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Your points would have validity of God was limited to an anthropomorphic box and was not able to move outside of our ideas of judgement and holiness. If God wants to send every person to Hell because of their sin he has that right, because he is God, and we are not. If he wants to have everyone become a Christian He will.

However he has made it clear that not all will come to a saving Grace in him, and that noone can come to Him without first being called by Him to it.

God has the right and ability to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants.

Romans 9.

MrJim said:

-been better off not having children if I believed it was a lottery or "arbitrary" Divine selection...why take the chance-and chance is what it is. Consider it from a pastoral perspective trying to explain it to someone whose child has died...

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There is scripture on raising children, the bible says to raise them up in the ways of the Lord. Election is not just a crap-shoot, God knew our attitudes about our children before he created the world. Children are not a choice we make they are part of creation. Scripture is written for those that would obey Him. It's not a book to convince us to obey, or to worry about how it all comes out. A godly man or woman, raising a child in the ways of the Lord need not worry. Our ability to obey is evidence that God is working in the home. our ability to obey is evidence that our work with our children will not come back void. And if it should happen it will somehow bring glory to God. That, in fact is the only reason for creation, it brings glory to God.

eldermike said:

...A godly man or woman, raising a child in the ways of the Lord need not worry. Our ability to obey is evidence that God is working in the home. our ability to obey is evidence that our work with our children will not come back void...

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Clarifying question:

Are you saying that if you are one of the elect, then your children are automatically one of the elect as well?

JimfromOhio said:

Since I dealt with disabilities as one of my daughters is mentally disabled. I always believed that Infants, dying in infancy, including those who are mentally disabled are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all others who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.(Rom 11:33)

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So it would have been better to have my boys die in their infancy than run the risk of not being elect...as far as eternity goes I would rather that happen and "guarantee" than the dice roll per calvinism.

I agree with you on the mentally disabled-was your daughter born this way or was it an accident?