Why The Warnings?

[Eddie L]

As far as your statement, 'obedience is obedience', I have to disagree. Psalm 66:3 speaks of a feigned obedience.

Ok, but all I meant was that we all know what it means to obey God.

[/I]Do you think anyone today who doesn't cast away their transgressions will have a dissimilar fate?

I'm not sure why you're asking me this question. I've already said that obedience is a logical necessity of believers. It isn't how we save ourselves, but it is how those being saved behave.

I contend obedience must be a willful practice, along with the Spirit, among Christians. Just saying the Spirit and grace give you the power to obey is not obeying, but rather, the actual deeds in action are. Remember, it's not just knowing the will of God, but also doing His will (knowing and doing are not the same thing). Also, if one does not obey the warning Paul gave in Galatians, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you think that salvation is a reward to the righteous, you are only right if you agree that Jesus is the Righteous One. Heartfelt obedience is only possible in those who are not obeying to earn or prove something by it, to those who wear the robes of Jesus.

I'm not suggesting that believers won't obey. Of course we will. It's not the gospel, though, to suggest that our righteous works are what save us.

 

[Arcoe]

1. Ok, but all I meant was that we all know what it means to obey God.

2. I'm not sure why you're asking me this question. I've already said that obedience is a logical necessity of believers. It isn't how we save ourselves, but it is how those being saved behave.

3. If you think that salvation is a reward to the righteous, you are only right if you agree that Jesus is the Righteous One. Heartfelt obedience is only possible in those who are not obeying to earn or prove something by it, to those who wear the robes of Jesus.

4. I'm not suggesting that believers won't obey. Of course we will. It's not the gospel, though, to suggest that our righteous works are what save us.

1. I keep getting the impression the Reformed think knowing is doing. Knowing what obedience is does not equate to actual obedience.

2. So you are saying obedience is NECESSARY for believers. I agree. Obedience isn't saving one's self; it is loving the Lord (John 14:15).

3. See #2. Obedience is loving the Lord.

4. I think it is a misguided assumption thinking believers WILL obey. Many passages exist which believers choose not to obey.

 

[Eddie L]

1. I keep getting the impression the Reformed think knowing is doing. Knowing what obedience is does not equate to actual obedience.

2. So you are saying obedience is NECESSARY for believers. I agree. Obedience isn't saving one's self; it is loving the Lord (John 14:15).

3. See #2. Obedience is loving the Lord.

4. I think it is a misguided assumption thinking believers WILL obey. Many passages exist which believers choose not to obey.

I'm not even sure what we're talking about anymore.

 

[gmm4j]

Where I’m trying to go with my questions in this thread is to find out whether or not God is misrepresenting Himself and our ability through the “means” of warnings throughout His Word. If Calvinism is correct, then it seems He has.

Instead, I believe the warnings are genuine conditions sovereignly set before men in order for men to utilize their God given response ability. If an elect person is unable to respond negatively, then the warnings are meaningless. Likewise, if a non-elect person is unable to respond in the affirmative, then the warnings are meaningless. If we are puppets on the string of His sovereignty, then the warnings are meaningless. However, if our ability has been sovereignly Willed by the Father, then it all begins to make sense.

Oh, and I wanted to say, “Whatever you do Eddie L, be careful not to fall upward.” If I told you that, you would think the warning was ridiculous. If Calvinism is true, then the warnings in Scripture are at the least ridiculous or very possibly misleading. I’ll stick with Scripture and remain very suspect about Calvinism.

I have no problem with responsibility and sovereignty. You will also be glad to know that I also understand that God’s sovereignty works through means. However, you want man to have responsibility without having response ability.

Again, the point of this thread, is that if God were a Calvinist (If His grace were irresistible for the elect and not made available for the non-elect), the verbiage of the “means” of Scripture would be much different than what we have. There would no need for conditional “if” statements and there would be no negative commands “Do not’s” that suggest resistance and rejection are possible. The “do not resist and reject warnings” infer the ability to resist and reject. I do not believe the Holy Spirit would be disingenuous in presenting warnings that imply ability when there is none. God is not disingenuous. Man does, in fact, have the God-given response ability. The sovereign means of Scripture reveals this.

 

[Eddie L]

Where I’m trying to go with my questions in this thread is to find out whether or not God is misrepresenting Himself and our ability through the “means” of warnings throughout His Word. If Calvinism is correct, then it seems He has.

I'm dumbfounded as to why you see it that way. If God's means is for us to use mental and physical faculties to learn, we have to have instructions and warnings. That spiritual realities are going to exist behind the scenes does not override the necessity of the means.

Let's assume for a minute that God is not orchestrating behind the scenes. You and I have the mental capacity to walk away from the faith at any time. There is no physical or mental barriers to doing so, and there would be serious consequences if that happened. So, from that perspective, the warnings are legitimate and real.

That is the perspective that much of the Bible is written from. It's like "channel 1". It is the channel of human experience. We live there, and that's where we choose from. All the warnings are absolutely true from that perspective.

Some passage speak from that perspective or the perspective of God's sovereignty, and the Jewish mind didn't seem to have a problem with it. Every now and then we get a passage that speaks from both perspectives at once, like Matthew 13:22.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
​

This can be a confusing statement from Christ until we just accept that there is the perspective of human experience and a perspective of God's sovereignty that run at the same time. We just have to let it go and accept it.

If we are puppets on the string of His sovereignty, then the warnings are meaningless.

The warnings are the strings.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,

I had said, "If we are puppets on the string of His sovereignty, then the warnings are meaningless."

You responded by stating, "The warnings are the strings."

From a Calvinistic perspective, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that the God-given grace to heed the warnings, or not, is the string?

 

[Eddie L]

Hey EddieL,

I had said, "If we are puppets on the string of His sovereignty, then the warnings are meaningless."

You responded by stating, "The warnings are the strings."

From a Calvinistic perspective, wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that the God-given grace to heed the warnings, or not, is the string?

Everything is a string, because everything is an influence. Everything is a means God uses for the good of those in Christ. The warnings, the commands, our gratitude in response to the gospel, everything.

 

[gmm4j]

"Everything is a means God uses for the good of those in Christ." I agree (Rom 8:28).

 

[gmm4j]

Calvinism's view of Scriptural warnings:

God to mankind: Do not follow false gods.

Mankind to God: We can't help it. We can do nothing but follow them.

God to mankind: I know you can't help it. You can only turn from false gods with my
assistance. And, I have decided to help a few of you, but for most
of you, I have chosen not to intervene.

Still, I command all of you this day, do not follow false gods or you
will be damned to the eternal fires of hell.

 

[Eddie L]

Calvinism's view of Scriptural warnings:

God to mankind: Do not follow false gods.

Mankind to God: We can't help it. We can do nothing but follow them.

God to mankind: I know you can't help it. You can only turn from false gods with my
assistance. And, I have decided to help a few of you, but for most
of you, I have chosen not to intervene.

Still, I command all of you this day, do not follow false gods or you
will be damned to the eternal fires of hell.

You've become another example of a person who is arguing against his own conclusions. You don't understand how it can work, so you fight against the only way you perceive that it can.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL,

Blessings and Merry Christmas!

Let's see:

Does God say not to follow false gods?

Lev 19:4"'Do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.

Yup.

Does Calvinism say that man cannot do anything but follow false gods without God's assistance?

Total Depravity/Inability: Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation, but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation. It is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

Yup.

According to Calvinism, has God predetermined to only assist by regeneration only a few elect?

Unconditional Election: God’s choice of certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will.

Yup.

Does God still command all men not to follow false gods even though, according to Calvinism, He only gives the grace to some enabling only them to repent of their evil ways?

Unconditional Election:His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God’s choice. Election, therefore, was not determined by, or conditioned upon, any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ.

Yup.

If, according to Calvinism, the non-elect can never and will never heed God’s commands, will they suffer eternal punishment?

Rom 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Yup.

I seems everything I wrote was correct.