Why The Warnings?

[gmm4j]

In light of the definitions taken from the ULI and P of TULIP, why the warnings?


Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus, God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

The inward call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependant upon man’s cooperationfor success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to comefreely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit, are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of almighty God, and thus persevere to the end.

Hebrews 4:7
“Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.”

To whom is the writer to the Hebrews referring? Those who hear His voice must either be elect or non-elect. If grace is irresistible for the elect (and these were the elect), how could they harden their hearts and why would they need to be warned not to do so? Likewise, if grace is not extended to the non-elect (and these were the non-elect), how could they do anything else and why would they be warned not to do so?

There are also many verses that warn people not to resist, refuse, reject, or rebel against God. They refer to falling away from grace, and people who were following God yet turning from Him, as well as many warnings against following false gods, false teachers, and false prophets.

Who are these warnings for? These too must be for either the elect or non-elect. If grace is irresistible for the elect (and these warnings are for the elect), how could they follow false gods, false teachers and false prophets, and why would they need to be warned not to do so? Likewise, if grace does not extend to the non-elect (and these warnings are for the non-elect), how could they do anything else and why would they be warned not to do so?

 

[Arcoe]

Over a month, and no replies. Your questions are pertinent, and deserve to be answered. However, I don't think you will be receiving any honest answers.

 

[Eddie L]

Who are these warnings for? These too must be for either the elect or non-elect. If grace is irresistible for the elect (and these warnings are for the elect), how could they follow false gods, false teachers and false prophets, and why would they need to be warned not to do so? Likewise, if grace does not extend to the non-elect (and these warnings are for the non-elect), how could they do anything else and why would they be warned not to do so?

Real faith will combine with that instruction and make for perseverance. The "warning" is a means of grace to those with the Spirit. God has chosen to use time and space to demonstrate His glory. That means messages must be spoken to be learned. Those that heed the warning are demonstrating that they have the grace to do so. They cannot boast in their heeding, because it is the grace provided through Providence that has ensured the heeding.

Rather than to infer that the giving of a warning must indicate that the elect can refuse them, we should let the Bible be explicit on that matter, which it is. Those that fall away show by their falling that they weren't ever really among us. That's the theological truth. The practical experience, though, is that we face the struggle to persevere every day. Our ability to get through that struggle is strengthened when we know that the promise of God is planted firmly behind us. He Who started a good work in us will finish it. Knowing that, we can hear the warnings and rely on God's power in us to heed them.

 

[gmm4j]

It still really doesn’t answer the question, “why the warnings?” That God can use them I agree. But, why would He issue them in the first place. If the Father were Calvinist, the Holy Spirit were Calvinist, Jesus were Calvinist, and the prophets and apostles were Calvinist in there understanding, then it seems there would only have been positive commands and there would have been explanations and expectations that those who were elect would obey and those who were not elect would not. But, there would not be conditional “if” statements and there would not be negative commands “Do not’s” that suggest resistance and rejection are possible. The “do not resist and reject warnings” infer the ability to resist and reject. Is the Holy Spirit being disingenuous? Why would God use these when it is impossible for the elect to do so and impossible for the non-elect to do anything but resist.

It would be like me warning a child to be careful not to fall up. He can’t do it. However, he can fall down, thus the warning.

You said messages must be spoken in order for lessons to be learned. My point is that warnings and “if” statements convey the wrong message from a Calvinist perspective. I agree with the theological point that the elect will persevere and the non-elect will only resist. However, I place the reason for election or non-election upon whether or not an individual believes or resists. Not only does staying in the faith prove that you are one of the elect; it is staying in the faith that keeps you elect.

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:20-24
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Eddie L]

It still really doesn’t answer the question, “why the warnings?” That God can use them I agree. But, why would He issue them in the first place. If the Father were Calvinist, the Holy Spirit were Calvinist, Jesus were Calvinist, and the prophets and apostles were Calvinist in there understanding, then it seems there would only have been positive commands and there would have been explanations and expectations that those who were elect would obey and those who were not elect would not. But, there would not be conditional “if” statements and there would not be negative commands “Do not’s” that suggest resistance and rejection are possible. The “do not resist and reject warnings” infer the ability to resist and reject. Is the Holy Spirit being disingenuous? Why would God use these when it is impossible for the elect to do so and impossible for the non-elect to do anything but resist.

Your inference, though, is based on the fact that you are pushing for "either responsibility or sovereignty", where it is really "both responsibility and sovereingty". God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. Maybe if I write it enough you'll get to understand that's what we believe.

It would be like me warning a child to be careful not to fall up. He can’t do it. However, he can fall down, thus the warning.

If I tell my child to be careful, I might be improving his chances. If I tell a child to be careful and then gently take his face into my hands so that he is looking into my eyes, I am improving his chances more. The warnings _might_ improve a person's chances at persevering. The warnings plus the Spirit's influence on our heart means we will persevere.

You said messages must be spoken in order for lessons to be learned. My point is that warnings and “if” statements convey the wrong message from a Calvinist perspective. I agree with the theological point that the elect will persevere and the non-elect will only resist. However, I place the reason for election or non-election upon whether or not an individual believes or resists. Not only does staying in the faith prove that you are one of the elect; it is staying in the faith that keeps you elect.

God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. It does no good for God to tell us that we will persevere without Him providing instructions, warnings, and experiences that cause us to. God's sovereignty works through means.

2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:20-24
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means!

 

[Eddie L]

A Little Example

Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Calvinist Response: "Lord, give me the grace to break through my arrogance so that I may continue in Your kindness. I know that it is your kindness that keeps me grafted in. Do not let me come to think that I have earned my place. Only by your power can I overcome."
Calvinist Assurance: "He Who began a good work in you will see it through to completion. You received the promised Holy Spirit and believed. The Spirit did not come to you to tease you. He will not leave you. The finished work of Christ is your righteousness, and His work on your behalf will not be in vain. Rely on His righteousness and not your own, and you shall not become arrogant."

We experience our salvation, complete with all its struggles. At no point can we overcome by depending on ourselves. Our faith is not just some drummed up decision to depend on God. Our true faith is the realization of how much we already depend on God. He holds us up. He is our strength. Anything I think I could rely on in me that is not Him in me is going to pull me in the wrong direction.

God's sovereignty works through means.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Eddie L,

Just read you responses and I can't really get into them now, but I did want to let you know, if you didn't already, "God's sovereignty works through means."

Blessings. I'll respond through the Internet unless it fails to connect.

 

[Eddie L]

Hey Eddie L,

Just read you responses and I can't really get into them now, but I did want to let you know, if you didn't already, "God's sovereignty works through means."

Blessings. I'll respond through the Internet unless it fails to connect.

For an Arminian, you're a lot of fun.

 

[Arcoe]

Your inference, though, is based on the fact that you are pushing for "either responsibility or sovereignty", where it is really "both responsibility and sovereingty". God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. Maybe if I write it enough you'll get to understand that's what we believe.

Maybe if God gave enough warnings, His children will get to understand that He intends for us to heed them.

If I tell my child to be careful, I might be improving his chances. If I tell a child to be careful and then gently take his face into my hands so that he is looking into my eyes, I am improving his chances more. The warnings _might_ improve a person's chances at persevering. The warnings plus the Spirit's influence on our heart means we will persevere.

Heeding the warnings is the only chance we have of persevering. We are told to flee fornication; if one continues in fornication, how do you suppose he is going to persevere? We are never told to stay in sin in order to persevere. It is only those who practice the truth who come to the Light, and only those in the Light are able to persevere.

God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. It does no good for God to tell us that we will persevere without Him providing instructions, warnings, and experiences that cause us to. God's sovereignty works through means.

The means by which it works is obedience to the word.

God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means!

Again, the means is by obedience to the word. Do you think those who disobey will enter the kingdom?

1 Corinthians 6:8-10

8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


People are deceiving themselves if they think they can ignore His warnings and enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[Eddie L]

Maybe if God gave enough warnings, His children will get to understand that He intends for us to heed them.

He only has to do that once.

Heeding the warnings is the only chance we have of persevering. We are told to flee fornication; if one continues in fornication, how do you suppose he is going to persevere? We are never told to stay in sin in order to persevere. It is only those who practice the truth who come to the Light, and only those in the Light are able to persevere.

Of course we have to persevere. That's not in question. The question is HOW will we persevere? Do we do it by our own efforts or the strength of our will, or do we do it by the power of God and His grace working in us?

The means by which it works is obedience to the word.

And the means by which we obey is the power of God working in us. That's all we're saying.

Again, the means is by obedience to the word. Do you think those who disobey will enter the kingdom?

Nope, but I believe those that obey are obeying because God sustains their faith.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10

8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

A-men!

People are deceiving themselves if they think they can ignore His warnings and enter the Kingdom of God.

A-men! And people are deceiving themselves if they think they can heed the warning apart from the power of grace.

When we attempt to obey from our own strength, we can never succeed. Even if we pull it off for a while we will eventually be overcome by the pride of our success. It is only when we know that we are accepted and loved by God and that the righteousness of Christ is our righteousness that we can find the freedom to obey from a faithful heart. As soon as we think we have to earn God's acceptance, we have again taken up self-justification and are working for our salvation. It is when we let go of any effort to redeem ourselves and recognize Christ's work on our behalf as the only true basis for our redemption that we will be able to truly obey for the right reasons.

It is still obedience. It is just grace-enabled obedience.

 

[Arcoe]

He only has to do that once.

1. Of course we have to persevere. That's not in question. The question is HOW will we persevere? Do we do it by our own efforts or the strength of our will, or do we do it by the power of God and His grace working in us?

2. And the means by which we obey is the power of God working in us. That's all we're saying.

3. Nope, but I believe those that obey are obeying because God sustains their faith.

1. Anyone who thinks they can persevere on their own is deceived. I've never said we can do anything without Him. Of course we have to rely upon Him.

We can't do it with our own efforts; however, we do it as of ourselves, but know it is from Him.

2. I agree.

3. Obedience will never happen if man does not put forth the effort in obeying. If no effort exists on our part, we are like rocks which sit in mud, not accomplishing a thing.

 

[Eddie L]

1. Anyone who thinks they can persevere on their own is deceived. I've never said we can do anything without Him. Of course we have to rely upon Him.

We can't do it with our own efforts; however, we do it as of ourselves, but know it is from Him.

2. I agree.

3. Obedience will never happen if man does not put forth the effort in obeying. If no effort exists on our part, we are like rocks which sit in mud, not accomplishing a thing.

Well, the effort that I put into obedience is not one born of striving or proving. The freedom I've found in Christ is what frees me to obey. That's what Calvinism teaches.

 

[Arcoe]

Well, the effort that I put into obedience is not one born of striving or proving. The freedom I've found in Christ is what frees me to obey. That's what Calvinism teaches.

True, but nonetheless, it is an effort on your part. No matter how free you may be to obey, it is not obedience until you actually put it into action.

I will ask you the same question Jesus asked.

In Matthew 21, we read the following:
28 “But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’
29 And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.

Now the question I ask you is who did the will of the Father?

 

[Eddie L]

What are you arguing against, Arcoe? Obedience is obedience. Who obeyed is obvious, but where the power to obey came from, and therefore, who gets the praise for the obedience, is what may be being disputed here.

Ultimately, my salvation is the result of Jesus' obedience. It is His obedience to the Father that ushered in the inheritance of fulfilling the Law. It is His obedience that made Jesus worthy of being our Passover Lamb. It is His death on the cross that paid for our sins, and so it is His obedience that redeemed me.

My obedience is a response to His. My love is a response to His. It is real obedience, but one born not out of my obligation for my salvation, but one born of my being set free by Jesus. It is still obedience, sure, but it is obedience motivated not for my personal redemption, but my personal gratitude.

Do you disagree with that, or are you going to tilt at the windmill of a Calvinist who says we don't obey?

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL (you are in red),

Originally Posted by gmm4j
It still really doesn’t answer the question, “why the warnings?” That God can use them I agree. But, why would He issue them in the first place. If the Father were Calvinist, the Holy Spirit were Calvinist, Jesus were Calvinist, and the prophets and apostles were Calvinist in there understanding, then it seems there would only have been positive commands and there would have been explanations and expectations that those who were elect would obey and those who were not elect would not. But, there would not be conditional “if” statements and there would not be negative commands “Do not’s” that suggest resistance and rejection are possible. The “do not resist and reject warnings” infer the ability to resist and reject. Is the Holy Spirit being disingenuous? Why would God use these when it is impossible for the elect to do so and impossible for the non-elect to do anything but resist.


Your inference, though, is based on the fact that you are pushing for "either responsibility or sovereignty", where it is really "both responsibility and sovereingty". God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. Maybe if I write it enough you'll get to understand that's what we believe.

I have no problem with responsibility and sovereignty. You will also be glad to know that I also understand that God’s sovereignty works through means. However, you want man to have responsibility without having response ability.

However, the point of this thread, is that if God were a Calvinist (If His grace were irresistible for the elect and not made available for the non-elect), the verbiage of the “means” of Scripture would be much different than what we have. There would no need for conditional “if” statements and there would be no negative commands “Do not’s” that suggest resistance and rejection are possible. The “do not resist and reject warnings” infer the ability to resist and reject. I do not believe the Holy Spirit would be disingenuous in presenting warnings that imply ability when there is none.God is not disingenuous. Man does, in fact, have the God-given response ability. The sovereign means of Scripture reveals this.

It would be like me warning a child to be careful not to fall up. He can’t do it. However, he can fall down, thus the warning.

If I tell my child to be careful, I might be improving his chances. If I tell a child to be careful and then gently take his face into my hands so that he is looking into my eyes, I am improving his chances more. The warnings _might_ improve a person's chances at persevering. The warnings plus the Spirit's influence on our heart means we will persevere.

You got me on this one. Improve his chances? Might improve a person’s chances? I’m in the Calvinism forum aren’t I?J I’m only having fun, but I really don’t understand this in light of Calvinism’s own definitions:

Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus, God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

The inward call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependant upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit, are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of almighty God, and thus persevere to the end.

The “means” of the warnings do nothing according to the definitions of Calvinism. You said, “The warnings plus the Spirit's influence on our heart means we will persevere.” But really, why the warnings? From the Calvinist’s perspective it could be the “pile of rocks in my backyard” plus the Spirit’s influence on our heart means we will persevere.

Where I’m trying to go with my questions in this thread is to find out whether or not God is misrepresenting Himself and our ability through the “means” of warnings throughout His Word. If Calvinism is correct, then it seems He has.
Instead, I believe the warnings are genuine conditions sovereignly set before men in order for men to utilize their God given response ability. If an elect person is unable to respond negatively, then the warnings are meaningless. Likewise, if a non-elect person is unable to respond in the affirmative, then the warnings are meaningless. If we are puppets on the string of His sovereignty, then the warnings are meaningless. However, if our ability has been sovereignly Willed by the Father, then it all begins to make sense.

Oh, and I wanted to say, “Whatever you do Eddie L, be careful not to fall upward.” If I told you that, you would think the warning was ridiculous. If Calvinism is true, then the warnings in Scripture are at the least ridiculous or very possibly misleading. I’ll stick with Scripture and remain very suspect about Calvinism.

You said messages must be spoken in order for lessons to be learned. My point is that warnings and “if” statements convey the wrong message from a Calvinist perspective. I agree with the theological point that the elect will persevere and the non-elect will only resist. However, I place the reason for election or non-election upon whether or not an individual believes or resists. Not only does staying in the faith prove that you are one of the elect; it is staying in the faith that keeps you elect.

God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. It does no good for God to tell us that we will persevere without Him providing instructions, warnings, and experiences that cause us to. God's sovereignty works through means.

Why couldn’t God just tell us that we will persevere without providing warnings? He could have. That is what Calvinism plainly states. Although there are warnings that state you may resist, if you are elect you won’t and can’t. We’re not going to fall. There is no chance of the elect perishing. Why warn us of something that can’t happen? I know God’s sovereignty works through deceptive means… no, no, that’s not what you said. J

Blessings brother!

 

[gmm4j]

Hey EddieL (you are in red),
2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rom 11:20-24
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means. God's sovereignty works through means!

A Little Example

Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Calvinist Response: "Lord, give me the grace to break through my arrogance so that I may continue in Your kindness. Give you the grace? Don’t you believe He already given you the grace to persevere? Don’t you feel you have been regenerated?
I know that it is your kindness that keeps me grafted in. This statement is in harmony with Calvinism.
Do not let me come to think that I have earned my place. Why say this? You know He won’t if you’ve been regenerated.
Only by your power can I overcome." Amen.

Calvinist Assurance: "He Who began a good work in you will see it through to completion. You received the promised Holy Spirit and believed. The Spirit did not come to you to tease you. He will not leave you. The finished work of Christ is your righteousness, and His work on your behalf will not be in vain. Rely on His righteousness and not your own, and you shall not become arrogant."

My assurance also!!!!!J and I’m not a Calvinist J.

We experience our salvation, complete with all its struggles. At no point can we overcome by depending on ourselves.

I agree.

Our faith is not just some drummed up decision to depend on God.

I agree. It is founded on revelation, the call to trust in that revelation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the kindnesses of God leading to repentance, the testimony of others, and much, much more, and all this juxtaposed against the consequences of sin and unbelief.

Our true faith is the realization of how much we already depend on God.

Amen.

He holds us up. He is our strength. Anything I think I could rely on in me that is not Him in me is going to pull me in the wrong direction.

Amen.

God's sovereignty works through means.

Amen. However, the “means” of Scripture does not misrepresent God or our response ability.

 

[Eddie L]

Calvinist Response: "Lord, give me the grace to break through my arrogance so that I may continue in Your kindness. Give you the grace? Don’t you believe He already given you the grace to persevere? Don’t you feel you have been regenerated?

Mr. G., sometimes it feels like you're standing in a pool that's 12 inches deep, and I want you to wade out into the deep end. You are arguing against a Calvinism that isn't real by attempting to oversimplify it. The Christian faith requires more than a 12-buzzword vocabulary, but it seems to me like you're trying to build some kind of quick reference guide. I'm not trying to be offensive, but am just relaying that we can't take our faith and map it out to a small set of theological terms and leave it at that. It's just not that simple.

Regeneration is the Spirit Himself coming to live in us, and to move in us and continue in us. As I experience life and am confronted with real decisions, I need His grace every moment of the day. It isn't like He wound me up and lets me go on my own. He is right there with me, and every move He makes on my behalf is grace.

Similarly, His gift of perseverance is experienced by me through the presence of His Spirit in me. His Spirit is what I need to be able to heed the warnings and apply doctrine to my life. Without the Spirit's fruit, I cannot heed the advice. The advice leads me to apply the Spirit's fruit to my life.

This seems so obvious to me that I am having a hard time dealing with this being a point of disagreement between us. You don't believe that the Spirit living in you is helping you process the Word and experiences of your day?

I know that it is your kindness that keeps me grafted in. This statement is in harmony with Calvinism.
Do not let me come to think that I have earned my place. Why say this? You know He won’t if you’ve been regenerated.

I know His promise, Mr. G., but God is growing my heart into agreeing with my mind over time, which means in much of my life my practical experiences challenge what I know to be true. Arrogance and pride make their way into my life in varying doses all the time, yet because I am not condemned such times move me to run back to grace. Our minds may comprehend the theology of what God has promised, but God has ordained a lifetime of experiences that allow our hearts to finally rest in that truth. It's a lifetime of learning. It's intimate, and it will involve many instructions and warnings along the way.

I agree. It is founded on revelation, the call to trust in that revelation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the kindnesses of God leading to repentance, the testimony of others, and much, much more, and all this juxtaposed against the consequences of sin and unbelief.

You say that, but then have to argue against the reality of it. Did the Holy Spirit convict you, or just try to? Did the kindness of God lead you to repentance, or just try to? Did the consequences of sin and unbelief have their way with you and draw you to Christ, or were they just valiant attempts?

You are in Christ, so God's efforts on your behalf were effective. They did what He sent them to do, right? Did God's grace bring you to salvation, or did He just stand back and wait for you to decide? It can't be both.

 

[Arcoe]

I know His promise, Mr. G., but God is growing my heart into agreeing with my mind over time, which means in much of my life my practical experiences challenge what I know to be true. Arrogance and pride make their way into my life in varying doses all the time, yet because I am not condemned such times move me to run back to grace. Our minds may comprehend the theology of what God has promised, but God has ordained a lifetime of experiences that allow our hearts to finally rest in that truth. It's a lifetime of learning. It's intimate, and it will involve many instructions and warnings along the way.

One question if you don't mind.

Please let me know what "move me to run back to grace" means. Can a person leave grace?

 

[Arcoe]

What are you arguing against, Arcoe? Obedience is obedience. Who obeyed is obvious, but where the power to obey came from, and therefore, who gets the praise for the obedience, is what may be being disputed here.

Ultimately, my salvation is the result of Jesus' obedience. It is His obedience to the Father that ushered in the inheritance of fulfilling the Law. It is His obedience that made Jesus worthy of being our Passover Lamb. It is His death on the cross that paid for our sins, and so it is His obedience that redeemed me.

My obedience is a response to His. My love is a response to His. It is real obedience, but one born not out of my obligation for my salvation, but one born of my being set free by Jesus. It is still obedience, sure, but it is obedience motivated not for my personal redemption, but my personal gratitude.

Do you disagree with that, or are you going to tilt at the windmill of a Calvinist who says we don't obey?

As far as your statement, 'obedience is obedience', I have to disagree. Psalm 66:3 speaks of a feigned obedience.

It's good to speak of obedience, but when pressed, many do not actually obey, but only make it a lip service. Israel, who was the elect of the Lord and given the commandments directly, continually disobeyed, as we read in the Bible. If you want to see the consequences of their disobedience, you can surely find many passages which refer to such.

We are given such passages as Ezekiel 18:31, which says to cast away our transgressions. Because Israel, His elect, did not cast them away, we read in Ezekiel 20:8 -

But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.

Do you think anyone today who doesn't cast away their transgressions will have a dissimilar fate? Christians are told to flee fornication (1 Cor. 6:18) , and depart from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19). Paul warned the Galatians against the sins listed in verses 19-21 of chapter 6, and told the Ephesians that immorality, impurity, and greed should even be named among them.

I contend obedience must be a willful practice, along with the Spirit, among Christians. Just saying the Spirit and grace give you the power to obey is not obeying, but rather, the actual deeds in action are. Remember, it's not just knowing the will of God, but also doing His will (knowing and doing are not the same thing). Also, if one does not obey the warning Paul gave in Galatians, they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Eddie L]

One question if you don't mind.

Please let me know what "move me to run back to grace" means. Can a person leave grace?

Even the hearts of the regenerate are rebellious, and the more we know Jesus the more apparent that becomes. I have to preach the gospel to myself every day, or before I can blink my heart will forget it. Before my mind even catches up to my heart I will have saddled myself back into a prideful attempt to prove that I am somebody, either in my walk with God or my performance as an employee, father, husband, musician, sunday school teacher... you name it.

When I say I have moved from grace, I mean that my heart has pulled me back away from the gospel into some sense of striving to look good... to be good at something... on my own. When I say "come back to grace" I mean that I have come back to my senses and have come back to the truth that frees me: Jesus is my righteousness.

Ultimately, though, God has me in the palm of His hand. His grace will be victorious in me, because that is His promise. He is my Savior in every way that I need, and while my heart struggles at times by planting the idea in my head that I am my own champion, His love for me remains that same. That is the truth that all His children walk in.