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Why the US has to win in Iraq

Barren

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[FONT=&quot]This is from my CF blog:

Will This Generation Of Americans Forsake Our Allies?


The pain was almost unbearable, but the young man continued to run. With each breath, his lungs were met with a sharp pain and a stinging sensation. Although fit for a sixteen year-old, he was on the brink of exhaustion—worn out completely, physically depleted, and on the verge of collapse. There was no stopping though, the attack-helicopter had him in its sights, and was firing in his direction.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All around the young man, chaos abound—dead bodies were disseminated throughout the street. Women, kids, and men alike; all strewn about and scattered in pieces, like left-over and unwanted parts that can be found spread around the floor of a meat factory. Saddam ordered his Republican Guard to suppress the people with massive force, and they showed no restraint.
[/FONT]
No mercy was shown to anyone, especially the men. While running from the helicopter full of Republican Guard, the sixteen year-old boy passed scene upon scene of evil acts and cruelty being committed against his neighbors. Rounding a street corner, the young Kurd’s hope of escape became dashed. He wound up in the sights of another attack-copter, and found his tired, exhausted and fatigued body, being violently struck with 50mm rounds.

[FONT=&quot]When we abandoned the Iraqis after the Persian Gulf War, events like this played out across the country. A report by Human Rights Watch states “In their attempts to retake cities, and after consolidating control, loyalist forces killed thousands of unarmed civilians by firing indiscriminately into residential areas; executing young people on the streets, in homes and in hospitals; rounding up suspects, especially young men, during house-to-house searches, and arresting them without charge or shooting them en masse; and using helicopters to attack unarmed civilians as they fled the cities.”

[/FONT] After persuading the Iraqi population to rise up against Saddam Hussein, America forsook and deserted the people of this uprising—that we helped foment. Thousands of Iraqis were murdered in the streets, and millions were forced to flee their homes, becoming refugees in neighboring countries. Now fifteen years later, we have a segment of the American population, who are advocating that we forsake these very same people, yet again.

[FONT=&quot]America
[FONT=&quot] cannot, and must not, withdraw from Iraq until the people of Iraq—without a doubt—are able to defend themselves. If we fail to meet this responsibility, the repercussions will have devastating affects not only in America, but around the world. The United States has a duty and an obligation, to protect the people of Iraq and leave them with a country that can defend itself.

[/FONT]
[/FONT] In fact, under the Geneva Convention, the US has a legal obligation to make this happen. Parts I through IV, of Convention IV, state that as on occupying force we have a duty to protect the citizens of Iraq in a time of war, and against certain consequences of war. We have no alternative but to protect the people of Iraq, until they’re able to defend themselves.

[FONT=&quot]America
[FONT=&quot] also has a moral obligation to hand over a safe and secure Iraq, to the Iraqi people. The United States chose to invade Iraq. A USA Today poll from March of 2003—the month the war began—shows that 76% of Americans supported going into Iraq. In October of 2002, the Senate voted 77-23 in favor of going to war with Iraq. The House of Representatives voted 296-133 in support of it.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]Although it’s not popular now, we-- as a country-- made the decision to go to war with Iraq. There is disagreement on why we got into this war, how we got into this war, and whether or not we should have got into this war. But the fact remains, we are in this war and we need to win this war. The credibility of our country, our nation, and we as a people, is on the line.

[FONT=&quot]We must show patience with the Iraqi people. The Center Of Military History, under the United States Army, says that post World War II we occupied Japan for six years, and Germany for nearly eleven. Sixty years later, we still have troops in both countries. We spent six years occupying Japan and eleven in Germany, and that was without the threat of international terrorism.

[/FONT] In Iraq we have terrorists—by the hundreds, possibly thousands—crossing the Iranian and Syrian border everyday. With this threat, we cannot expect the occupation of Iraq to end quickly, nor easily. We can’t expect a bunch of trainee-soldiers to secure their country, if the world’s most powerful military can’t. We must take as much time as necessary, to create a safe and secure Iraq. Because the occupation of Iraq isn’t going well, various politicians and media personalities are equating Iraq with Vietnam.

Imagine a little girl, roughly six years-old, standing inside her modest home. The makeshift walls of this home are made of bamboo chutes, sticks, and straw. The roof mirrors that of the walls, but made with lighter and smaller sticks and chutes. The dirt floor is damp, wet in spots, as the roof didn’t provide much shelter from the previous night’s rain.

[FONT=&quot]The girl watches in horror as two soldiers of the Khmer Rouge, who have just stormed this modest home, rape her mother. Three of her brothers, lay dead on the ground—with two of them beheaded. A third soldier tightens an iron collar that has been placed around her father’s neck. The spinal column at the base of his brain snaps, he falls to the ground dead

[/FONT]When America abandoned our allies in Southeast Asia, scenes like this played out across Indochina. When we turned our backs on the South Vietnamese, Communists swept through Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. People were forced to watch as family members were decapitated or garroted, students were made to hang their teachers, millions were slaughtered and hundreds of thousands died at sea while trying to escape.

[FONT=&quot]To quote columnist David Warren, “If Iraq is abandoned, the credibility of America and the West is lost. Iran's hopes of regional hegemony are assured. The Americans will have cut and run after enduring less than one-twentieth of the casualties they suffered in Vietnam; and from a battle more consequential, for it is against an Islamist enemy that is rising, instead of a Communist enemy in decline.”

[FONT=&quot]If we give up, discontinue, or withdraw from Iraq, it surely will be reminiscent of Vietnam. We will have once again abandoned an ally, this time leaving their fate in the hands of barbarians—terrorist who saw off heads, rape and torture. The blood of millions of Iraqi’s will be on our hands. For an accurate portrayal of what Iraq would like look like if we don’t win, one simply needs to look at Afghanistan.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]Afghanistan is a prime example of what happens when a super-power withdraws from a fundamentalist, Islamic enemy. The later half of the century witnessed the Cold War between the world’s two super-powers—the United States and the Soviet Union. In 1979 the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, in what would turn out to be a decade-long war with the Afghans.

Due to the American triumph over the Soviets, and the subsequent break-up of the USSR, the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan without a victory. Arab fighters from all over the Middle East had come to Afghanistan, to fight the Soviets. Upon the Soviet’s withdraw, many of these battle-hardened militants went on to change the face of Afghanistan, and terrorism as the world knew it.

[FONT=&quot]A group called the Taliban took control and ruled the country. Once in power, the Taliban instituted a form of Islamic law that was administered by a religious police force. The Taliban banned all forms of television, imagery, music and sports. Punishments included amputation of hands for theft, and stoning for adultery.

[/FONT]Under the new Afghanistan, women were banished from the work force, expelled from universities, not allowed in schools, prohibited from leaving their homes unless accompanied by a male relative and were not allowed to seek medical attention. Violations of the laws lead to women being brutally beaten, flogged, or killed, sometimes in the middle of the street.

A PBS report on terrorism claims that when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the country emerged as a terrorist training ground. One terrorist organization to emerge from Afghanistan was Usama Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda would go on to blow up embassies, a US warship, and commit the attacks of September 11, 2001.

If radical Islam—operating out of caves and mud huts—managed to oppress an entire country, form terrorist organizations, and export terrorism around the world, there is no telling what could happen if we desert Iraq and leave them an entire country full of oil, infrastructure, roads, airports, electricity, communications, and weapons.

[FONT=&quot]The United States of America cannot abandon Iraq. The debate of whether or not we should invade Iraq is over—we are there. As a nation, we chose to enter this conflict. As a nation, we need to choose to take responsibility for our actions. If the United States does not win in Iraq the repercussions will lead to a succession, sequence, or chain of events that at best, will lead to a third world war, and at worst, lead to the fall of Western Civilization’s two thousand year reign.
[/FONT]
 

christalee4

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This post is as hefty as a giant meat and potato pie. Lots of stuff in it, but no real nutrition.

Your quote says it all: "A PBS report on terrorism claims that when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the country emerged as a terrorist training ground. One terrorist organization to emerge from Afghanistan was Usama Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda would go on to blow up embassies, a US warship, and commit the attacks of September 11, 2001."

Whom do you think helped to support the fundies during this time? I will give you three guesses, and it's not Ho Chi Min, Saddam Hussein, or Mao Tse Tung. It wasn't the hippies, or the Godless atheists, or the feminists either.

It was the United States.

You compare Iraq and Afghanistan, but those two situations were entirely different. I think it was right for us to jump on Afghanistan, as it was home to the training grounds of the 9/11 hijackers and Osama Bin Laden. It housed the Taliban, who were fundie Islamicists.

But we didn't finish the job in Afghanistan. We did not do near enough to help rebuild the country, which is steeped in poverty, provincialism and primitism.

Then, we make the biggest and stupidest mistake by invading Iraq, which was not fundamentalist Islamic. It was ruled by a dictator, but so are many other Middle Eastern countries. Like Egypt. Like Syria. How about the United Arab Emirates? How about Yemen?

The war in Iraq has pretty much weakened our military. as our military leaders have suggested.

If you think this war is primarily against fundamentalist Islam, why did we not invade Saudi Arabia, or Yemen, where the attackers, and Osama Bin Laden, came from? Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, are the hub of fundie Islamicism.

Whom do you think this war on terror is against?
 
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christalee4

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The Iraqis have to take charge of this if they want to be free of the religious fanatics that are trying to take over their country.

Excuse me?

Who do you think the religious fanatics are in Iraq? They are the Shi'ite majority, whom are supported by Iran. Iraq is the most religiously fanatic now that we have deposed the guy who kept them down, Saddam Hussein. Those people are wild maniacs, any way you cut it.
 
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T

The Lady Kate

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The Iraqis have to take charge of this if they want to be free of the religious fanatics that are trying to take over their country.

The problem is that the Iraqis have every reason in the world not to take charge of this as long as we are there... they'd much rather have the religious fanatics shooting at us than at them.
 
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BearerBob

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The problem is that the Iraqis have every reason in the world not to take charge of this as long as we are there... they'd much rather have the religious fanatics shooting at us than at them.

Except that they are killing way more Iraqis than US soldiers.
 
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Sycophant

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The problem is that the Iraqis have every reason in the world not to take charge of this as long as we are there... they'd much rather have the religious fanatics shooting at us than at them.

Thing is, the religious fanatics are shooting at one another, and uninvolved civilians of the wrong religious orientation. That horse has already bolted. The vast majority of deaths in Iraq now are Iraqis, normally killed in religiously inspired attacks. The US casualities are relatively minor overall, and are probably inflicted by a fairly small proportion of the fighters.

Something has to be done to control the civil war that has now taken hold. With a Shi'ite majority that has Iran's tacit backing, the violence isn't going to end anytime soon - if the US military can't stop it, then a newly formed and somewhat poorly trained Iraqi security force isn't going to have the magic touch either.
 
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Barren

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This post is as hefty as a giant meat and potato pie. Lots of stuff in it, but no real nutrition.

Your quote says it all: "A PBS report on terrorism claims that when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the country emerged as a terrorist training ground. One terrorist organization to emerge from Afghanistan was Usama Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda would go on to blow up embassies, a US warship, and commit the attacks of September 11, 2001."

Whom do you think helped to support the fundies during this time? I will give you three guesses, and it's not Ho Chi Min, Saddam Hussein, or Mao Tse Tung. It wasn't the hippies, or the Godless atheists, or the feminists either.

It was the United States.

You compare Iraq and Afghanistan, but those two situations were entirely different. I think it was right for us to jump on Afghanistan, as it was home to the training grounds of the 9/11 hijackers and Osama Bin Laden. It housed the Taliban, who were fundie Islamicists.

But we didn't finish the job in Afghanistan. We did not do near enough to help rebuild the country, which is steeped in poverty, provincialism and primitism.

Then, we make the biggest and stupidest mistake by invading Iraq, which was not fundamentalist Islamic. It was ruled by a dictator, but so are many other Middle Eastern countries. Like Egypt. Like Syria. How about the United Arab Emirates? How about Yemen?

The war in Iraq has pretty much weakened our military. as our military leaders have suggested.

If you think this war is primarily against fundamentalist Islam, why did we not invade Saudi Arabia, or Yemen, where the attackers, and Osama Bin Laden, came from? Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, are the hub of fundie Islamicism.

Whom do you think this war on terror is against?
Christalee4,

According to the US Department of Agriculture; Potatoes contain many of the essential nutrients that the dietary guidlines recommend Americans increase in their diet. Potatoes are loaded with vitamin C, potassium and fiber. Potatoes provide complex carbohydrates needed to fuel our brains and bodies.

Meat is loaded with B vitamins that are absent in many plant foods, helps with iron absorption, and its amino acid composition complements that of many plant foods.

I agree with you that my post has lots of stuff in it, but disagree on your observations when it comes to the nutritional value of foods for my body or the nutritional value of thought out opinions-- pertaining to politics and current affairs.

Please reread my post, particularly the segment that deals with the Soviet withdraw from Afghanistan. I was comparing the Soviet withdraw from Afghanistan to the hypothetical "cut and run" American withdraw from Iraq-- if we leave without winning.

I mentioned nothing about the US invasion of Afghanistan after the attacks of September 11th. That situation is totally different. However, the situation I talked about in my post, is not.

Also, if you had truly read my post you would have seen that I took no stand on whether or not we should have invaded Iraq.

The war in Iraq is primarily against fundamentalist Islam. You may not think so, but dozens of terrorist organizations do. All you lefties keep harping on how we got into Iraq and why we got into it. You need to look at the current situation in Iraq and see it for what it is. Al-Qaeda sees it for what it is, the central front in the war against humanity.

Bin Laden has stated "The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries. It's either victory and glory, or misery and humiliation." You may not see Iraq as part of the War on Terror, but those who wish to seek us harm do.
 
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JoyJuice

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The war in Iraq is primarily against fundamentalist Islam. You may not think so, but dozens of terrorist organizations do. All you lefties keep harping on how we got into Iraq and why we got into it. You need to look at the current situation in Iraq and see it for what it is. Al-Qaeda sees it for what it is, the central front in the war against humanity.

Bin Laden has stated "The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries. It's either victory and glory, or misery and humiliation." You may not see Iraq as part of the War on Terror, but those who wish to seek us harm do.
Are you sure all those Shiites and Sunnis who are fighting each other in a tribal battle are Islamic fundamentalists, or just tribal and leader loyalists?

Al-Qaeda is so lost in the sea of newly organized Iraqi terror groups that if by the wave of the magic wand the war was over, it would not do one thing for our terror problem or them. In fact, we may or may not have to deal with the some 100 new groups who may shift their focus on us after Iraq is settled. But hey, we are actually looking at another 10 years anyway.

We may have to see this stupid is as stupid does quagmire to the end, but as you mentioned with Afghanistan and Vietnam, I would think one would think things through before they create a power vaccum.
 
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HouseApe

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Barren,

You make a fundamental assumption that the United States has the ability create a peaceful Iraqi state. I think your assumption is wrong.

Can you point out a situation similar to the scale of Iraq where the United States was capable of occupying a country, halting a civil war, and creating a peaceful democracy? If you can't, then you have to consider that we are guaranteeing the deaths of thousands of our American soldiers and 10's of thousands of innocent Iraqis if we stay; all to no avail.

It could even be possible that the presence of our forces are actually increasing the level of strife in Iraq. Many more people died in Vietnam during our military involvement their than died after we left. And we didn't abandon S. Vietnam because we were bored, we did it because we could not win under the rules of engagement we were using. I will guarantee you the same situation exists in Iraq.
 
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jgarden

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[FONT=&quot]This is from my CF blog:

Will This Generation Of Americans Forsake Our Allies?

The pain was almost unbearable, but the young man continued to run. With each breath, his lungs were met with a sharp pain and a stinging sensation. Although fit for a sixteen year-old, he was on the brink of exhaustion—worn out completely, physically depleted, and on the verge of collapse. There was no stopping though, the attack-helicopter had him in its sights, and was firing in his direction.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All around the young man, chaos abound—dead bodies were disseminated throughout the street. Women, kids, and men alike; all strewn about and scattered in pieces, like left-over and unwanted parts that can be found spread around the floor of a meat factory. Saddam ordered his Republican Guard to suppress the people with massive force, and they showed no restraint.
[/FONT]
No mercy was shown to anyone, especially the men. While running from the helicopter full of Republican Guard, the sixteen year-old boy passed scene upon scene of evil acts and cruelty being committed against his neighbors. Rounding a street corner, the young Kurd’s hope of escape became dashed. He wound up in the sights of another attack-copter, and found his tired, exhausted and fatigued body, being violently struck with 50mm rounds.

[FONT=&quot]When we abandoned the Iraqis after the Persian Gulf War, events like this played out across the country. A report by Human Rights Watch states “In their attempts to retake cities, and after consolidating control, loyalist forces killed thousands of unarmed civilians by firing indiscriminately into residential areas; executing young people on the streets, in homes and in hospitals; rounding up suspects, especially young men, during house-to-house searches, and arresting them without charge or shooting them en masse; and using helicopters to attack unarmed civilians as they fled the cities.”

[/FONT] After persuading the Iraqi population to rise up against Saddam Hussein, America forsook and deserted the people of this uprising—that we helped foment. Thousands of Iraqis were murdered in the streets, and millions were forced to flee their homes, becoming refugees in neighboring countries. Now fifteen years later, we have a segment of the American population, who are advocating that we forsake these very same people, yet again.

[FONT=&quot]America
[FONT=&quot] cannot, and must not, withdraw from Iraq until the people of Iraq—without a doubt—are able to defend themselves. If we fail to meet this responsibility, the repercussions will have devastating affects not only in America, but around the world. The United States has a duty and an obligation, to protect the people of Iraq and leave them with a country that can defend itself.

[/FONT]
[/FONT] In fact, under the Geneva Convention, the US has a legal obligation to make this happen. Parts I through IV, of Convention IV, state that as on occupying force we have a duty to protect the citizens of Iraq in a time of war, and against certain consequences of war. We have no alternative but to protect the people of Iraq, until they’re able to defend themselves.

[FONT=&quot]America
[FONT=&quot] also has a moral obligation to hand over a safe and secure Iraq, to the Iraqi people. The United States chose to invade Iraq. A USA Today poll from March of 2003—the month the war began—shows that 76% of Americans supported going into Iraq. In October of 2002, the Senate voted 77-23 in favor of going to war with Iraq. The House of Representatives voted 296-133 in support of it.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]Although it’s not popular now, we-- as a country-- made the decision to go to war with Iraq. There is disagreement on why we got into this war, how we got into this war, and whether or not we should have got into this war. But the fact remains, we are in this war and we need to win this war. The credibility of our country, our nation, and we as a people, is on the line.

[FONT=&quot]We must show patience with the Iraqi people. The Center Of Military History, under the United States Army, says that post World War II we occupied Japan for six years, and Germany for nearly eleven. Sixty years later, we still have troops in both countries. We spent six years occupying Japan and eleven in Germany, and that was without the threat of international terrorism.

[/FONT] In Iraq we have terrorists—by the hundreds, possibly thousands—crossing the Iranian and Syrian border everyday. With this threat, we cannot expect the occupation of Iraq to end quickly, nor easily. We can’t expect a bunch of trainee-soldiers to secure their country, if the world’s most powerful military can’t. We must take as much time as necessary, to create a safe and secure Iraq. Because the occupation of Iraq isn’t going well, various politicians and media personalities are equating Iraq with Vietnam.

Imagine a little girl, roughly six years-old, standing inside her modest home. The makeshift walls of this home are made of bamboo chutes, sticks, and straw. The roof mirrors that of the walls, but made with lighter and smaller sticks and chutes. The dirt floor is damp, wet in spots, as the roof didn’t provide much shelter from the previous night’s rain.

[FONT=&quot]The girl watches in horror as two soldiers of the Khmer Rouge, who have just stormed this modest home, rape her mother. Three of her brothers, lay dead on the ground—with two of them beheaded. A third soldier tightens an iron collar that has been placed around her father’s neck. The spinal column at the base of his brain snaps, he falls to the ground dead

[/FONT]When America abandoned our allies in Southeast Asia, scenes like this played out across Indochina. When we turned our backs on the South Vietnamese, Communists swept through Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. People were forced to watch as family members were decapitated or garroted, students were made to hang their teachers, millions were slaughtered and hundreds of thousands died at sea while trying to escape.

[FONT=&quot]To quote columnist David Warren, “If Iraq is abandoned, the credibility of America and the West is lost. Iran's hopes of regional hegemony are assured. The Americans will have cut and run after enduring less than one-twentieth of the casualties they suffered in Vietnam; and from a battle more consequential, for it is against an Islamist enemy that is rising, instead of a Communist enemy in decline.”

[FONT=&quot]If we give up, discontinue, or withdraw from Iraq, it surely will be reminiscent of Vietnam. We will have once again abandoned an ally, this time leaving their fate in the hands of barbarians—terrorist who saw off heads, rape and torture. The blood of millions of Iraqi’s will be on our hands. For an accurate portrayal of what Iraq would like look like if we don’t win, one simply needs to look at Afghanistan.

[/FONT]
[/FONT]Afghanistan is a prime example of what happens when a super-power withdraws from a fundamentalist, Islamic enemy. The later half of the century witnessed the Cold War between the world’s two super-powers—the United States and the Soviet Union. In 1979 the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, in what would turn out to be a decade-long war with the Afghans.

Due to the American triumph over the Soviets, and the subsequent break-up of the USSR, the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan without a victory. Arab fighters from all over the Middle East had come to Afghanistan, to fight the Soviets. Upon the Soviet’s withdraw, many of these battle-hardened militants went on to change the face of Afghanistan, and terrorism as the world knew it.

[FONT=&quot]A group called the Taliban took control and ruled the country. Once in power, the Taliban instituted a form of Islamic law that was administered by a religious police force. The Taliban banned all forms of television, imagery, music and sports. Punishments included amputation of hands for theft, and stoning for adultery.

[/FONT]Under the new Afghanistan, women were banished from the work force, expelled from universities, not allowed in schools, prohibited from leaving their homes unless accompanied by a male relative and were not allowed to seek medical attention. Violations of the laws lead to women being brutally beaten, flogged, or killed, sometimes in the middle of the street.

A PBS report on terrorism claims that when the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, the country emerged as a terrorist training ground. One terrorist organization to emerge from Afghanistan was Usama Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda would go on to blow up embassies, a US warship, and commit the attacks of September 11, 2001.

If radical Islam—operating out of caves and mud huts—managed to oppress an entire country, form terrorist organizations, and export terrorism around the world, there is no telling what could happen if we desert Iraq and leave them an entire country full of oil, infrastructure, roads, airports, electricity, communications, and weapons.

[FONT=&quot]The United States of America cannot abandon Iraq. The debate of whether or not we should invade Iraq is over—we are there. As a nation, we chose to enter this conflict. As a nation, we need to choose to take responsibility for our actions. If the United States does not win in Iraq the repercussions will lead to a succession, sequence, or chain of events that at best, will lead to a third world war, and at worst, lead to the fall of Western Civilization’s two thousand year reign.
[/FONT]
Document 52: Department of State Cable from George P. Shultz to the United States Embassy in Lebanon [et al.]. "Department Press Briefing, March 30, 1984," March 31, 1984.

The State Department announces it has imposed foreign policy controls on Iran and Iraq for exports of chemical weapons precursors. It responds to questions from the press about U.S. policy regarding the Iran-Iraq war, and a department spokesperson says Iraq's chemical weapons use will not change U.S. interest in pursuing closer U.S.-Iraq relations.


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/#docs
........................................................................
This is a declassified document clearly stating that Iraq's use of chemical weapons (WMD) "will not change U.S. interest in pursuing closer U.S.-Iraq relations.

The CIA was already well aware that Sadaam had not only used chemical weapons against the Iranians but also Kurd civilians including women and children.

It should also be noted that George Bush Sr. was the vice-president in the Reagan Administration at the time.
:bow:
 
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Alarum

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The OP seems to miss a very salient point - we just abandoned Afghanistan like the Soviets did. If we KNOW that that will create terrorists, why have we done that? Why are we now in Iraq, and letting Afghanistan, a known home of terrorists, revert to terrorist control? What are our odds of 'solving' the Iraq problem? How do we get out of this mess?

There's so many questions here that 'stay the course' doesn't answer. The OP suggests that the results of not staying the course are bad, but says nothing about the results of staying the course. If we stay there 10 more years, is there any chance that the result won't be the same as if we left tomorrow - only with thousands more dead soldiers? We're no closer to establishing peace than we were a year ago, in fact we're farther away.
 
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Barren

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Alarum,
I didn't say anything about staying the course. I think we need to stay till we win. Unfortunately we will probably lose for the same reason we lost in Vietnam.
Houseape pointed out the rules of engagement and how we couldn't win in Vietnam with the rules we had. I believe that we can win in Iraq-- just like we could have easily won in Vietnam-- but the current rules of engagement have to go, and so does the media that is treacherous in its behavior towards this war.
 
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CCGirl

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Alarum,
I didn't say anything about staying the course. I think we need to stay till we win. Unfortunately we will probably lose for the same reason we lost in Vietnam.
Houseape pointed out the rules of engagement and how we couldn't win in Vietnam with the rules we had. I believe that we can win in Iraq-- just like we could have easily won in Vietnam-- but the current rules of engagement have to go, and so does the media that is treacherous in its behavior towards this war.

So, killing most of the population in Iraq is something you support? That is what is needed to feel like the US has "won". Same with Vietnam. Killing millions of civilians certainly didn't help the US "win". Should millions more have been killed? That is what winning looks like.:confused:
 
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christalee4

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The war in Iraq is primarily against fundamentalist Islam. You may not think so, but dozens of terrorist organizations do.


Completely,this is not the case.

The war in Iraq, was never against Islamic fundamentalism, because Saddam Hussein was not an Islamic fundie.

In fact brother, Iraq is more Islamicist fundamentally than it ever was now, because we took away Hussein's oppression of those same fundies.

Do you get it now.?

Do you need links? I will provide loads of them, to show to you that, in many areas of Iraq, that fundies rule and oppress the local population, including the women and the girls.
 
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burrow_owl

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The Center Of Military History, under the United States Army, says that post World War II we occupied Japan for six years, and Germany for nearly eleven.
The U.S. wanted a large force in Germany for a more robust reconstruction, but the American people protested that plan so roundly that the plans were drastically scaled back.

Americans have never consented to using the military for mere security, and probably never will.
We have no alternative but to protect the people of Iraq, until they’re able to defend themselves.
That's for protection during war, and doesn't determine the length of occupation.
 
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