Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

Berean777 · Feb 8, 2016

Difference between the gods or rulers in Psalm 82 and Jesus claiming to be God, comes down to the question of worship. The 24 earthly judges were not worshipped, rather they were feared and were ruthless and corrupt. On the other hand Jesus claiming to be the God, who said you are rulers/gods to those earthly 24 judges is worshipped. Big difference.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

cgaviria said:
Clearly in that passage of Acts they knew that they had received the holy spirit because of an outward sign that would've made it evident. It just wasn't recorded. You can't possibly know if someone has received holy spirit unless it is demonstrated with a visible outward sign, as the holy spirit is invisible to the eye. You can also know if someone has holy spirit by their fruit, meaning their actions. If someone is still committing sins, then they have not received holy spirit. No one that receives holy spirit will ever sin again, as it is impossible. There are many people that falsely think that by them just believing in Jesus Christ that this is the evidence of having the holy spirit. It just isn't true. Having holy spirit is a literal possession by a spirit of God. You will know when you have it, because he is a literal spirit that speaks inside your mind without you having control of what he says, as he is his own being. Most falsely think that their own voice inside their head is the holy spirit, and this is also false. Holy spirit speaks independently and you cannot control what he says to you, and he reveals to you things you would have no way of knowing.

Really. Is it your contention, then that the apostle Peter never received the Spirit?

Galatians 2 said:
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.[a]13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

So we see that when Peter (Cephas) came to Antioch, he was drawn into sin by Jews who came to visit from James. Paul rebuked him accordingly, and (though the outcome is not recorded for us) we assume that he then repented of his sin.

And what of the apostle Paul, who argued sharply with his brother in Christ against giving another brother a second chance (Acts 15). Yet we see later that this brother in Christ (Mark) would become invaluable to Paul in his ministry (2 Timothy 4).

Did they not receive the Holy Spirit? Or is it possible that you are in error when you say nobody who has received the Holy Spirit can ever sin again?

cgaviria · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Really. Is it your contention, then that the apostle Peter never received the Spirit?

So we see that when Peter (Cephas) came to Antioch, he was drawn into sin by Jews who came to visit from James. Paul rebuked him accordingly, and (though the outcome is not recorded for us) we assume that he then repented of his sin.

And what of the apostle Paul, who argued sharply with his brother in Christ against giving another brother a second chance (Acts 15). Yet we see later that this brother in Christ (Mark) would become invaluable to Paul in his ministry (2 Timothy 4).

Did they not receive the Holy Spirit? Or is it possible that you are in error when you say nobody who has received the Holy Spirit can ever sin again?

I didn't write this scripture,

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])

Nor did I write this one,

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:6 [KJV])

Whoever is born of God cannot sin. Plain and simple. Paul was not sinning when he confronted Peter concerning circumcision, as we are all given a different measure of belief, and thus Paul had a greater measure of belief than Peter, and thus Peter then conceded with Paul on this matter. There was no sin here, just further evidence that even with these great apostles there is a variance in measure of belief even among them, and that we all ought to submit to each other just as even they.

So if you are still sinning, you do not yet belong to God.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

cgaviria said:
I didn't write this scripture,

Nor did I write this one,

Whoever is born of God cannot sin. Plain and simple. Paul was not sinning when he confronted Peter concerning circumcision, as we are all given a different measure of belief, and thus Paul had a greater measure of belief than Peter, and thus Peter then conceded with Paul on this matter. There was no sin here, just further evidence that even with these great apostles there is a variance in measure of belief even among them, and that we all ought to submit to each other just as even they.

So if you are still sinning, you do not yet belong to God.

1 John has already been shown to say that we lie if we say we have (not had) no sin. These are clear references to those who go on living in sin.
But I will post it again here for the sake of redundancy:

1 John said:
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

(Note that "have" is present tense, and John certainly received the Holy Spirit).
But I never said Paul was sinning in the first passage I quoted. Partiality (what Peter was doing) is a sin:

James 2 said:
My brothers,[a] show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones whodrag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

And of course there is the further teaching of James:

James 3 said:
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

This is a warning to brothers not to become teachers (unless the Spirit calls them to) because they will receive a stricter judgment for sinning. James goes on to use the inclusive "we" all stumble [sin] in many ways.

When you look at this, why do teachers receive a harsher judgment when they sin (particularly, as we see here, with their lips)? Because their teaching has a greater influence on those who hear it, and their words have a greater influence on those who hear it. So James is telling them that you cannot completely keep yourself from sinning with your lips.

James 3 said:
How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life,[a] and set on fire by hell.[b]7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, 8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. 10 From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers,[c] these things ought not to be so. 11 Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.

Goatee · Feb 8, 2016

cgaviria said:
Clearly in that passage of Acts they knew that they had received the holy spirit because of an outward sign that would've made it evident. It just wasn't recorded. You can't possibly know if someone has received holy spirit unless it is demonstrated with a visible outward sign, as the holy spirit is invisible to the eye. You can also know if someone has holy spirit by their fruit, meaning their actions. If someone is still committing sins, then they have not received holy spirit. No one that receives holy spirit will ever sin again, as it is impossible. There are many people that falsely think that by them just believing in Jesus Christ that this is the evidence of having the holy spirit. It just isn't true. Having holy spirit is a literal possession by a spirit of God. You will know when you have it, because he is a literal spirit that speaks inside your mind without you having control of what he says, as he is his own being. Most falsely think that their own voice inside their head is the holy spirit, and this is also false. Holy spirit speaks independently and you cannot control what he says to you, and he reveals to you things you would have no way of knowing.

I agree that if one was filled with the Holy Spirit it doesn't mean that anyone else would know it. It is bound to change that person massively and i would say outwardly that person would be acting differently too. In The Catholic church one would go to a Spiritual adviser to discuss this if one thought that they had been filled with the Holy Spirit.

Goatee · Feb 8, 2016

To be a teacher, one has to tread very carefully as i am sure punishment will be more severe if the teacher is not teaching correctly! To stand alone and proclaim things that goes against the normal teachings that teacher had better make sure they are 100% filled with God's grace to teach those facts. If it is not from God then i am sure God will not be happy and his wrath could be severe!

cgaviria · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
1 John has already been shown to say that we lie if we say we have (not had) no sin. These are clear references to those who go on living in sin.
But I will post it again here for the sake of redundancy:

(Note that "have" is present tense, and John certainly received the Holy Spirit).
But I never said Paul was sinning in the first passage I quoted. Partiality (what Peter was doing) is a sin:

And of course there is the further teaching of James:

This is a warning to brothers not to become teachers (unless the Spirit calls them to) because they will receive a stricter judgment for sinning. James goes on to use the inclusive "we" all stumble [sin] in many ways.

When you look at this, why do teachers receive a harsher judgment when they sin (particularly, as we see here, with their lips)? Because their teaching has a greater influence on those who hear it, and their words have a greater influence on those who hear it. So James is telling them that you cannot completely keep yourself from sinning with your lips.

Obviously with 1 John saying "if we say we have no sin" doesn't refer to continuing sinning, otherwise it would contradict the other scriptures that say anyone born of God cannot continue sinning. What this verse means is that we all have sinned in the past, and if we say we haven't sinned, we are liars. And going further, in accordance with the other scriptures, if you continue sinning, you have not been born of God yet. You can't just take one verse, twist it, and then discard these other verses that are clearly stating you cannot continue sinning, common now.

Next, if you look at the interlinear for James 3:2, http://biblehub.com/interlinear/james/3-2.htm , the word "we stumble" is not the original word, should just read "stumble", meaning "in many ways stumble all". This verse isn't affirming that the author was saying that he himself stumbles, but that all men stumble in various ways.... and then if you go on to read in this same verse, he then also affirms, "if anyone in what he says does not stumble, this one is a perfect man...", so he is in fact affirming that there are perfect men who don't stumble in speech. Also, the other reason for the exhortation of there not being many teachers among the brethren is because growing in Christ is a spiritual growth, in which case not all receive holy spirit immediately, and even those who do receive him do not receive full knowledge immediately, so each believer ought to first grow and become mature before he becomes a teacher. And even so, the holy spirit inside a believer will guard him from not sinning even in speech, as that is the whole purpose of Jesus Christ having died in the cross and now giving holy spirit, is to perfect and cause a man to never to sin again, not to just atone for sin once and for all.

7xlightray · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
But perhaps we also need to look at the Greek a little closer in the passages that you quote when you talk about being tempted. It says that God cannot be tempted by evil. But the root Greek word there is not the same that is used elsewhere for temptation. The root Greek word that is typically used for tempt or tempting can also mean "test" or "testing" depending on its context.

Sure, lets look at it closer.

It's not really all that different as it may seem, for it is G1 and G3985 together.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted [G3985 – peirazó {peirazomenos}], I am tempted [G3985 - peirazó {peirazomai}] of God: for God cannot be tempted [G551 - apeirastos - from G1 /A "not" and G3985 /peirázō] with evil, neither tempteth [G3985 - peirazó {peirazei}] he any man:

The sense of the word sure is not test in this passage.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

cgaviria said:
Obviously with 1 John saying "if we say we have no sin" doesn't refer to continuing sinning, otherwise it would contradict the other scriptures that say anyone born of God cannot continue sinning. What this verse means is that we all have sinned in the past, and if we say we haven't sinned, we are liars. And going further, in accordance with the other scriptures, if you continue sinning, you have not been born of God yet. You can't just take one verse, twist it, and then discard these other verses that are clearly stating you cannot continue sinning, common now.

Next, if you look at the interlinear for James 3:2, http://biblehub.com/interlinear/james/3-2.htm , the word "we stumble" is not the original word, should just read "stumble", meaning "in many ways stumble all". This verse isn't affirming that the author was saying that he himself stumbles, but that all men stumble in various ways.... and then if you go on to read in this same verse, he then also affirms, "if anyone in what he says does not stumble, this one is a perfect man...", so he is in fact affirming that there are perfect men who don't stumble in speech. Also, the other reason for the exhortation of there not being many teachers among the brethren is because growing in Christ is a spiritual growth, in which case not all receive holy spirit immediately, and even those who do receive him do not receive full knowledge immediately, so each believer ought to first grow and become mature before he becomes a teacher. And even so, the holy spirit inside a believer will guard him from not sinning even in speech, as that is the whole purpose of Jesus Christ having died in the cross and now giving holy spirit, is to perfect and cause a man to never to sin again, not to just atone for sin once and for all.

You have it a little backwards here. 1 John 1 comes before 1 John 3, which means John intended his readers to read that first.

So, when you put 1 John 3 in the context of 1 John 1, which says that "if we save we have no sin we deceive ourselves..." and "if we say we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His word is not in us..." and "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness..." You can easily see, as most people do, that this is talking about people who continue to live in sin. That's what "continue sinning" means.

In fact, if you just put the verses that you continue to quote in the context in which they were written, this becomes even more self-explanatory:

1 John 3 said:
4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

John starts his epistle (in 1 John 1) by making sure that his readers understand that to say that you never sin is nothing more than self-deception and lies. He then goes on in 1 John 3, confident that they already understand the error of claiming to be sinless, to explain to them that anybody who practices sin is not born of God.

Perhaps this example will help to clarify what this means.

I know a man who, as a believer, stumbled into the sexual sin of pornography. After a period of struggle, he confessed his sin to God, and no longer continues in that sin.

However, I also know another man who, as a believer (or at least churchgoer who says he knows Jesus), is on his 3rd sexual partner in the last 2 years, gets paid "under the table" to avoid taxes for various tasks, and regularly engages in things like pornography. He is unashamed of this, and doesn't believe there is a biblical problem with the way he is living.

The first is somebody who sinned, repented, and was restored. The second is somebody who continues to practice sin.

As the Holy Spirit changes us, we must decrease and Christ must increase (as the apostle Paul says), but that doesn't mean that we never fail.

That is also (clearly) what James is saying. He just said that "nobody" is able to control their tongue perfectly. And that "Everyone" (since you seem to prefer this to "we all" - it's still inclusive) stumbles at various times. Therefore, when he says that anybody who is able to control his tongue is a perfect man, he is reiterating that nobody is able to control their tongue perfectly.

There is also instruction in the letter to the Corinthians for disciplining and restoring a brother who was sinning. And Paul talks about his own struggle with sin in Romans, as has been shown.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

7xlightray said:
Sure, lets look at it closer.

It's not really all that different as it may seem, for it is G1 and G3985 together.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted [G3985 – peirazó {peirazomenos}], I am tempted [G3985 - peirazó {peirazomai}] of God: for God cannot be tempted [G551 - apeirastos - from G1 /A "not" and G3985 /peirázō] with evil, neither tempteth [G3985 - peirazó {peirazei}] he any man:

The sense of the word sure is not test in this passage.

Yes, and as scripture explains, Jesus could be tempted by evil because He was fully man at the time He was tempted, just as He is also God.

The both/and really helps reconcile scripture...

7xlightray · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Furthermore, we have to understand what the Bible means when it says that Jesus was "tempted in every way as we are." How was He tempted? Certainly not from the sin nature - He was born without that. But we see the temptation of Jesus - which comes from an external source (the devil) - in 3 of the 4 gospels.

Now is this the only time the devil tempted Him? We're not told in the scriptures. It's likely that it wasn't, but God has chosen not to give us any more insight there.

Have you suffered temptation? Jesus suffered temptation, just as we do. Jesus needed to know what it is to suffer temptation, yet without sin, he resisted that temptation. And you can really get the sense of it in Luke 22:42-44 and Mark 14:33-35 and Matt. 26:37-39. There is Luke 4:13, also Jesus was being tempted during the 40 days, anyone would be tempted not eating, day after day, for 40 days.

Then of course, it does not matter who initiates it...

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan [adversary]: thou art an offence [G4625. skandalon - a snare, stumbling-block, cause for error] unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire], and enticed. 15 Then when lust [desire] hath conceived [Jesus stoped it here], it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus was a man with desires, who was tempted, as we are. He needed to be, it was important, so he could be a merciful and faithful high priest Hebrews 2:17. So that he could sympathize with us, and understand what we go through. If none of this is so, then it just becomes meaningless words on paper.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted [G3985] like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

7xlightray said:
Have you suffered temptation? Jesus suffered temptation, just as we do. Jesus needed to know what it is to suffer temptation, yet without sin, he resisted that temptation. And you can really get the sense of it in Luke 22:42-44 and Mark 14:33-35 and Matt. 26:37-39. There is Luke 4:13, also Jesus was being tempted during the 40 days, anyone would be tempted not eating, day after day, for 40 days.

Then of course, it does not matter who initiates it...

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan [adversary]: thou art an offence [G4625. skandalon - a snare, stumbling-block, cause for error] unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire], and enticed. 15 Then when lust [desire] hath conceived [Jesus stoped it here], it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus was a man with desires, who was tempted, as we are. He needed to be, it was important, so he could be a merciful and faithful high priest Hebrews 2:17. So that he could sympathize with us, and understand what we go through. If none of this is so, then it just becomes meaningless words on paper.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted [G3985] like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Yes... but if you understand the Bible you also understand the difference.

Jesus was tempted in every way - just as we are. But the temptation came from without. Not from within.

Maybe we need to back up and talk about what temptation is. Temptation is the desire - stimulated from either without or within (both for us, only from without for Jesus) - to satisfy a want or a need in a way that rebels against God's law and/or purpose for us.

We are told elsewhere in scripture that temptation falls under three areas: the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

To see this, one must only look at the temptations that were given Jesus:

(1) to make bread from rocks. Jesus was experiencing extreme physical hunger at this point in time, having fasted for 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness. Under such circumstances His body needed food soon.
However, He knew that God's purpose in this was for Him to not heed the voice of the devil, so even though His physical body needed food soon, He knew this was not the time to take that food. He chose not to heed the temptation to obtain His body's needs in a way that would be rebelling against the Father's purpose for Him.

(2) to throw Himself from the heights. The devil was here inviting Jesus to test God's promise for Him by intentionally putting Himself in danger. The subtle message of this is "let's see if the Father will really keep you from death if you do this."
However, Jesus knew that it was wrong to test God. He chose not to heed the temptation to "verify" the Father's promises.

And, of course (3) to bow down and worship the devil, for which the devil would give him the earth. This is the most clear temptation to sin and rebellion, but as we find in the gospel of John this also had the most compelling temptation, as it offered Him a vast kingdom without the suffering that would come by way of the cross.

So, as I said before, Jesus was tempted in every way, just as we are (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life), but only from other beings, not from His own being.

cgaviria · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
You have it a little backwards here. 1 John 1 comes before 1 John 3, which means John intended his readers to read that first.

So, when you put 1 John 3 in the context of 1 John 1, which says that "if we save we have no sin we deceive ourselves..." and "if we say we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His word is not in us..." and "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness..." You can easily see, as most people do, that this is talking about people who continue to live in sin. That's what "continue sinning" means.

In fact, if you just put the verses that you continue to quote in the context in which they were written, this becomes even more self-explanatory:

John starts his epistle (in 1 John 1) by making sure that his readers understand that to say that you never sin is nothing more than self-deception and lies. He then goes on in 1 John 3, confident that they already understand the error of claiming to be sinless, to explain to them that anybody who practices sin is not born of God.

Perhaps this example will help to clarify what this means.

I know a man who, as a believer, stumbled into the sexual sin of pornography. After a period of struggle, he confessed his sin to God, and no longer continues in that sin.

However, I also know another man who, as a believer (or at least churchgoer who says he knows Jesus), is on his 3rd sexual partner in the last 2 years, gets paid "under the table" to avoid taxes for various tasks, and regularly engages in things like pornography. He is unashamed of this, and doesn't believe there is a biblical problem with the way he is living.

The first is somebody who sinned, repented, and was restored. The second is somebody who continues to practice sin.

As the Holy Spirit changes us, we must decrease and Christ must increase (as the apostle Paul says), but that doesn't mean that we never fail.

That is also (clearly) what James is saying. He just said that "nobody" is able to control their tongue perfectly. And that "Everyone" (since you seem to prefer this to "we all" - it's still inclusive) stumbles at various times. Therefore, when he says that anybody who is able to control his tongue is a perfect man, he is reiterating that nobody is able to control their tongue perfectly.

There is also instruction in the letter to the Corinthians for disciplining and restoring a brother who was sinning. And Paul talks about his own struggle with sin in Romans, as has been shown.

If sin were allowable, there would be no point in trying to live holy lives, as anyone would be able to sin and keep asking God for forgiveness. I suggest you read this,

One of the major deceptions present in this time is that you can continue sinning and that somehow God will forgive you each time. I hear it time and time again, we are fallen, that's why we sin, and there is grace for that. While there is indeed favor, this is not a license to sin. First and foremost, before jumping into the ability to stop sinning, I must first discuss what the power of the spirit really does. Throughout scripture we see evidence that receiving the spirit is not just some sort of figurative event that occurs, as most perceive it to be, it happens with real physical manifestations and signs of having received it. In one occurence we see written,

And spirit of the LORD shall spring upon you, and you shall prophesy with them, and you shall turn into another man. (1 Samuel 10:6 [ABP])

This scripture was talking about Saul. Notice how the scripture says, and "you shall turn into another man". It is talking about an inward mental change, a literal change and rewiring of his mind to become someone else. How did this happen? As a consequence of the spirit springing upon him. The mental change is literally a possession of the mind, but not by an evil force, but by the spirit of God. And what also happened? He began prophesying, and this was an outward sign. It was so evident what had just happened that look further at what is written,

And came to pass all the things being made known to him yesterday and the third day before. And behold, he was in the midst of the prophets prophesying. And the people each said to his neighbor, What is this, the thing having happened to the son of Kish? Or is also Saul among the prophets? (1 Samuel 10:11 [ABP])

In a more modern way of translating, they were practically saying, "what happened here, is Saul, the son of Kish, now a prophet?". They were in shock.

In further reading, we have a prophecy in Ezekiel stating how God would cause his people to follow him and keep his commandments,

[26] And I will put in you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you, and I will remove the stone heart from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit in you, and I shall make it that you shall go by my ordiances, and you shall keep my judgments, and you shall observe them.(Ezekiel 36:26-27 [ABP])

The first thing to note here is God putting a new heart in you. Heart is synonymous with the mind, but more specifically where the desires are. We see another usage here of the word "heart",

May he grant you your heart's desire and fulfill all your plans! (Psalm 20:4)

The heart is also where desires and intentions lie, as is the usage in many other passages. So what does he also do? He puts in a new spirit in you. And what else? A new heart, meaning, a new mind and new desires. This prophecy is also indicating that it will be dispensed differently than it was before, yet even in the way it was dispensed before, we saw indications of how powerful it was to change the mind of a person. What will this new spirit cause a man to do? It will cause him to "go by my ordinances and you shall keep my judgments, and you shall observe them." Meaning you will obey God. Why is it different now than before? Because of the blood of Jesus Christ has now been shed, and so now this new spirit operates in the power of that blood of Jesus Christ, causing you to change have a different mind and also desires, whereas before it didn't to those that had holy spirit and still sinned, because the blood of the true lamb of God hadn't been shed yet, and the blood of animals was never able to cause a man to stop sinning, yet was only able to atone for sins. This prophecy is now fulfilled in these days by the outpouring of the holy spirit as a result of the shedding of the blood of the true lamb of God. The new spirit that is given now imparts the ability to sin no more. Why? Because the blood of Jesus has now been poured. His blood, which is higher than the blood of animals, is indeed able to cause a man to stop sinning through the power of holy spirit, whereas before, the blood of animals was never able to change the heart (mind and desires), as it is written,

For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of he-goats to remove sins. (Hebrews 10:4 [ABP])

This is why it is a new spirit, since it now causes you to change your mind and desires, and how it coincides with God saying, "I will give you a new heart of flesh". In this passage we also read, "I will remove the stone heart", what exactly does this mean? It means it will remove your old fleshly mind which has evil desires (This is where Paul talks about the fleshly nature), which is also the root of sin, and give you a new heart, that desires to obey God and causes you to keep his commandments and not sin anymore. Receiving holy spirit is in fact so powerful that it causes a man to now stop sinning and change removes evil desires, and thus this is why we read,

Anyone engendered of God, does not commit sin, for his seed abides in him; and he is not able to sin, because he has been engendered by God. (1 John 3:9 [ABP])

Why is he also not able to sin anymore? Because his desires have been changed by being possessed by God. This is one scripture that is ignored or twisted by many, because they don't understand how it is possible to stop sinning. They think they have received holy spirit figuratively, and while they are still aware of their own sinful desires, they cant comprehend how one can stop sinning while having this "figurative" spirit. It is not just a figurative thing, it is literal, and it comes with outward manifestations of it. It is only possible by receiving this Spirit that you can stop sinning, that possesses you and causes you to follow after God, and changes your inner desires. Being born of God is receiving this Spirit. Going further, Paul also says that it is impossible for us to stop sinning, which is true because we are still in our fallen nature if we don't receive this holy spirit, which is why it is necessary to receive holy spirit, so that through its power we may then finally be able to stop sinning, but not by our own power, but by the power of the spirit. Its not anything in our own nature, because our minds are fleshly and our desires are evil, but because of God putting his spirit in you and causing you to follow after him that you are then able to walk perfectly before him. If you could indeed keep sinning while having holy spirit, you would be breaking scripture that says that you cannot sin when being born of God. So therefore, anyone that still sins does not truly have the spirit of God. Jesus even says,

You shall be then yourselves perfect, as your father, the one in the heavens is perfect. (Matthew 5:48 [ABP])

How can anyone be perfect and why would Jesus demand such a seemingly impossible thing? It's because perfection, that is, inward perfection, is imparted by holy spirit, which then makes inner perfection possible. Jesus also told the woman after he forgave her sins,

And she said, No one, O Lord. And Jesus said to her, Nor I condemn you; go and from now sin no more! (John 8:11 [ABP])

In Romans Paul goes on to eloquently explain this fallen nature that is in us before having the Spirit,

[15] For what I manufacture, I do not know; for not what I want to do, this I practice; and what I detest, this I do. [16] But if what I do not want to do, this I do, then I assent to the law that it is good. [17] But now, no longer I manufacture it, but it is the sin living in me. [18] For I know that there does not live in me (that is to say in my flesh) good. For the will is present with me, but the manufacturing the good I do not find. [19] For I do not do the good which I want to do, but the evil which I do not want to do, this I do. [20] But if what I do not want to do, this I do; no longer I manufacture it, but it is sin living in me. [21] I find then the law, in the one wanting in me to do the good, that with me the evil is present. [22] For I delight in the law of God according to the inside man. [23] But I see another law in my members, undertaking an expedition against the law of my mind, and captivating me to the law of the sin, to the one being in my members. [24] O miserable man am I. Who shall rescue me from this body of death? (Romans 7:15-24 [ABP])

We are born in sin even before we commit any sins, this is our fallen nature, that nature of our minds, and nothing that is within us is able to follow after God. As it is even written,

Sinners were separated from the womb; they wander from the belly; they spoke lies. (Psalms 58:3 [ABP])

Notice how they were called sinners even from the womb, before they were even able to commit sins. Its imputed on us already before birth. Paul even says,

for all sinned and lack the glory of God; (Romans 3:23 [ABP])

Even in 1 John we read,

If we should say that we do not have sin, we mislead ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8 [ABP])

This doesn't mean that we continue to sin, because in the verses before, it said no one that is born of God sins. What it means is that we have all sinned in the past. Only Jesus Christ did not sin, ever. So what does Paul go on to say after explaining this very evil nature that has befallen all of man, including himself, which is why he calls himself "wretched man"? He says,

[1] In nothing then is there now condemnation to the ones in Christ Jesus, not walking according to flesh, but according to spirit. [2] For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of the sin and of death.
(Romans 8:1-2 [ABP])

Did you catch that? The ones in Christ Jesus, "not walking according to the flesh, but according to the spirit", or more clearly explained, not walking according to the flesh anymore, but now presently walking according to the spirit. What this really means is this, at one point I did walk in the flesh, but now I walk in the Spirit. How? By having the spirit. You can't both walk in the flesh and in the Spirit at the same time. You can only walk in one or the other. And also meaning, before I had the fleshly nature, but now that I have the spirit, I have been freed from the fleshly nature. Look what Paul then says, "the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me". Paul is in fact affirming that he has now been freed from sin and from his very fleshly nature. Because of the spirit. He affirms this again,

that the ordinance of the law should be fulfilled in us, to the ones not walking according to flesh, but according to spirit. (Romans 8:4 [ABP])

He is in fact affirming that he is not walking after the flesh anymore, not now presently only walking after the spirit. Again, Paul makes another affirmation about this,

But you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if indeed spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, this one is not of him. (Romans 8:9 [ABP])

Again, you are not in the flesh anymore, but now in spirit, and what does he say after? If indeed the spirit of God lives in you. You can only be set free by your sinful nature and desires and not walk in the flesh anymore only if you have the spirit of God in you. How much more clear can Paul be? Yet many still misunderstand out of ignorance and justify their own continuance of committing sins. They falsely think you can walk in the flesh and in the spirit at the same time. Not according to Paul. Paul further says,

For as many as are led in spirit of God, these are sons of God.(Romans 8:14 [ABP])

Whoever has received the spirit of God is a son of God, being born of God, who can no longer sin. This coincides with other previous scriptures. Do we have other scriptures indicating that a person can stop sinning? Yes, look at this prophecy in Daniel concerning Jesus,

Seventy periods of seven were rendered concise upon your people, and upon the holy city, to finish off sin, and to set a seal upon sins, and to wipe out the lawless deeds, and to atone for iniquities, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to set a seal upon vision and prophecy, and to anoint the holy of holies. (Daniel 9:24 [ABP])

This scripture is often misinterpreted and many believe the false teaching of a "7 year tribulation" as the final week in this prophecy because they don't understand how sin could've been "finished off" knowing themselves that they still continue sinning. Well, sin is "finished off" because of the power the holy spirit gives to cause a person to stop sinning. This prophecy was already fulfilled after the death of Jesus Christ, ending the 70 weeks prophecy. It didn't just stop, then resume in the future over 2,000 years later as many falsely believe. The 70 weeks were sequential years and it was completed with the death of Jesus Christ and the Pentecost that brought in the Holy Spirit giving the inner perfection and finishing off of sins. Even in Hebrews we have another affirmations concerning perfection and those that are sanctified by holy spirit,

For by one offering he has perfected in perpetuity the ones having been sanctified. (Hebrews 10:14 [ABP])

So what about grace, or rather, favor? I prefer the use of the word favor because it more accurately conveys in English what is meant by the word grace, in that he chooses to show mercy and compassion, while we don't deserve it, and he doesn't really have to do it, he just merely shows it because he chooses to show his kindness. God does whatever he pleases. This is his creation and his work, and we are creatures made by him, created as sinners. He does whatever he wants with us. The favor of God is bestowed upon us in that while being in our fallen nature not deserving his mercy, he still chose to be merciful with us, forgive our previous sin, and bestow upon us the gift of his spirit, to be sons of the living God empowered to stop sinning because of his spirit. This is where the favor of God demonstrated. As Paul even says,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And he also says,

For to Moses he says, I will show mercy on whom ever I should show mercy, and I shall pity whom ever I should pity. (Romans 9:15 [ABP])

Therefore, it is God who shows the mercy, to whomever he pleases. It is nothing that we have done, it is merely his favor, and in fact, his choosing, that you anyone receives the gift of holy spirit.

Moving on to a different topic related to this, some might say, well wasn't Peter sinning in reference to the circumcision when Paul confronted him? The answer is no. It was because Peter was acting on his portion of faith, or rather belief. Everyone has a different portion of belief, some greater than others.

For I say by the favor being given to me, to every one being among you, to not be high-minded above what you must think; but to think to be of a sound mind; to each as God portioned a measure of belief. (Romans 12:3 [ABP])

God has indeed appointed each to have a measure of belief. In this matter, Peter's belief was lesser in this matter, yet he did not commit sin, because he acted in his own portion of belief. Just because the spirit has been imparted on you doesn't mean you all of a sudden have all knowledge of everything. It just means that you are now able to be clear of evil desires inwardly and walk after God in a straight path, and have a divine guidance that will give you knowledge on new things as he reveals them to you. God does not reveal all knowledge just at once, but instead, reveals little by little, and to each person reveal different things, mainly that we should remain humble in the present time not knowing absolutely everything, and that we should each have a different measure of belief. Paul even writes,

But grow in the favor and knowledge of our Lord and deliverer Jesus Christ! To him be the glory both now and into the day of the eon. Amen. (2 Peter 3:18 [ABP])

Grow in knowledge is what Paul says. What need would there to Grow in knowledge if holy spirit imparted full knowledge of everything? So no, holy spirit doesn't impart full knowledge, yet he does guide in all things as time goes on.

The humility of believers in the present time is what God desires, this is evident in that even in Paul himself knowing so much, God even kept him humble by giving him a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble.

And so that I should not be elevated over the excess of the revelations, there was given to me a barb in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, that he should buffet me, that I should not be elevated. (2 Corinthians 12:7 [ABP])

So back to my original point, Peter in no way was sinning, he was merely acting on his portion of belief and knowledge he had.

Going further, there is a passage in 1 Timothy concerning those who still sin in the church,

[19] Do not welcome from outside a charge against an elder, unless by two or three witnesses! [20] The ones sinning reprove before all, that also the rest should have fear! (1 Timothy 5:19-20 [ABP])

This scripture is not talking about believers that have the spirit, its talking about new believers that come into the church that don't yet have the spirit, who can still sin, whether young or older (an "elder"). What does it say? If they should sin, reprove them, or in other ways, rebuke them, so that everyone else might be afraid. And if they are older (an "elder"), entertain an accusation in the witness of two or three, meaning don't just believe that someone older is sinning by the word of one, but have multiple witnesses concerning it. Older men have a special significance in scripture, and to Paul, are worthy of double honor,

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. (1 Timothy 5:17)

And also, jumping to another scripture, we have an example of the seriousness of having the spirit,

[4] For it is impossible of the ones once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and becoming partakers of holy spirit, [5] and having tasted the good word of God, and of powers of the eon about to be, [6] and having fallen, again to renew to repentance; crucifying again to themselves the son of God, and making an example of him. (Hebrews 6:4-6 [ABP])

It's impossible that once you have the holy spirit, that if you were to lose it, to ever get it back. Paul indicates the seriousness of this. Is it even possible to lose the Holy Spirit? No, because you are sealed when you receive it, therefore losing it is impossible, because as scripture says, those who are born of God cannot sin. Paul even makes mention of being sealed with holy spirit,

In whom also you, having heard the word of the truth the good news of your deliverance -- in whom also having trusted, you were sealed by the spirit of the promise in the holy; (Ephesians 1:13 [ABP])

When once receives holy spirit, one becomes the temple of the God, as it it said here,

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy spirit in you, which you have from God, and you are not your own? (I Corinthians 6:19 [ABP])

Which there, Paul even states if in having it the scenario arose that you did fall away, it would be impossible for you to ever get come to repentance, yet this is even impossibly to happen, because in 1 John read read that it is impossible for anyone born of God to sin. This saying Paul said is like saying, if Jesus had sinned, it would be impossible for him to come back in favor with God. The whole scenario is just impossible to begin with.

Going further, what about temptation? We have the following scripture referencing temptation,

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. (James 1:14)

Does this mean everyone that has ever been tempted was done so because they had an evil desire? No. Look at Jesus, he himself was also tempted 3 times. And he had no sin nor evil desires. There are two types of temptations, one of which you are tempted when you have an evil desire, and then another when you are tempted already having holy spirit, to test you. The temptation of ones having holy spirit is necessary to test to fulfill scripture, and just as Jesus was tested, so are his flock. So its actually not a "tempation" as it is when it occurs when being lured by an evil desire, but it is rather a "test". As Paul even says,

A test has not taken you except what belongs to a human; but God is trustworthy, who will not allow you to be tested above what you are able; but will make with the test also the way out, for you to be able to endure. (1 Corinthians 10:13 [ABP])

God makes it so that those that have the Spirit will endure the testing, that is, the temptation, just as Jesus endured the testing. Again, this coincides with scripture, he who has the holy spirit cannot sin. They are indeed tested, but they always endure.

Going back to the outward manifestations of having the spirit, here are a few other occurrences in newer times after the death of Jesus Christ,

And they were filled all together of holy spirit, and they began to speak with other languages, as the spirit gave to them to be declared. (Acts 2:4 [ABP])

And also,

And Paul having put hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them, both speaking languages and prophesying. (Acts 19:6 [ABP])

But you shall receive power of the holy spirit coming upon you. And you will be to me witnesses in both Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth. (Acts 1:8 [ABP])

Notice that this scripture says power. It is real power. Paul warned of a time when men would deny the power of the holy spirit,

having the appearance of piety, but denying its power. Even these turn away from! (2 Timothy 3:5 [ABP])

Who's power? The Spirit's power.

Finally, concluding this subject, it is pretty evident what the power of the Spirit does. It changes your mind literally to cause you not to sin anymore. It also comes with outward physical manifestations when you receive it. I can dig deeper on this topic, but I felt it necessary to cover the most essential part of having the Spirit, and it is not the outer miracles and signs that are evident when you receive it, but rather, causing you to stop sinning by removing your fleshly inner nature, which operates now under the blood of Jesus Christ.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

cgaviria said:
Strawman... smoke and mirrors...

I'll address the strawman first:

I repeat and reiterate redundantly that I do not, have not, and will not argue that we have a "license to sin" or that there is "no point in trying to live a holy life." This is exactly what Paul argues against when he says "shall I go on sinning that grace may increase? By no means! I died to sin, how can I live in it any longer?" The argument that we are not required to try to live a holy life is a straw man that you set up and are continuing to shoot down because it's easier than trying to argue against what the Bible says.

Now for the smoke and mirrors.

All your arguing and debating the passage doesn't change the context of any of this scripture. It doesn't change the fact that the apostle Peter, who we see received the Spirit at Pentecost, sinned by showing partiality to the gentiles while he was visiting Antioch. It doesn't change the fact that in 1 John 1, in order to prevent just such an error as yours, John starts his gospel by clearly saying that if we say we have (present tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. It doesn't change the fact that James, John, and Paul all talk about believers' ongoing struggle with sin.

And as Paul ends his discourse concerning the flesh and the Spirit, he says:

Romans 7 said:
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul then goes on to say that we must not walk according to the flesh. Because with our flesh we serve the law of sin. This means that we do not obey the flesh. We struggle against it. We fight it. We walk according to the Spirit. And as we walk according to the Spirit, we put to death the deeds of the flesh.

This whole passage of scripture, starting all the way back in Romans 1 really, is an argument against taking the attitude that "if I can't attain perfection, why should I even try?" That's the whole purpose of it! But that is the attitude that you have.

Perhaps an analogy would help. If I'm a goalie in professional soccer, then my aim is never to let that ball get past me into the goal. At some point in my career, I realize that, though it won't happen every game, there will be times when that ball will get past me into that goal. I can react in two ways. I can:
(1) train my body and my mind to block that ball from reaching the goal as often as I can
or (2) say "I won't be able to stop it every time, so what's the point of even trying?"

Which attitude do you think will make me a better goalie? I guarantee you that if I take the approach "why even bother trying?" I won't be a professional goalie.

This is why Paul talks about buffeting his body into submission, and training for righteousness. The more you train for righteousness, the better you are able to resist the temptation when it comes. If you take the "why even try" attitude, you submit yourself back to sin, and will not walk according to the Spirit.

nomadictheist · Feb 8, 2016

cgaviria said:
Going back to the outward manifestations of having the spirit, here are a few other occurrences in newer times after the death of Jesus Christ,

Since we're back to this, you didn't quote any "additional" times that receiving the Spirit was recorded in the Bible as being evidenced by tongues. You only used two of the three examples that I already cited, that were also explained.

Acts 2: Pentecost
Acts 19: John the Baptist's disciples

Nobody's denying the power of the Spirit to change lives. That's just another strawman you're throwing up to shoot at. The difference is that I believe without the Spirit we are powerless to resist temptation. You believe that the Spirit means we can be perfect in this life.

And in terms of sin, you can say what you want, but the Bible clearly says Peter was showing partiality. The Bible clearly says showing partiality is a sin. Therefore, Peter committed a sin.

Goatee · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
I'll address the strawman first:

I repeat and reiterate redundantly that I do not, have not, and will not argue that we have a "license to sin" or that there is "no point in trying to live a holy life." This is exactly what Paul argues against when he says "shall I go on sinning that grace may increase? By no means! I died to sin, how can I live in it any longer?" The argument that we are not required to try to live a holy life is a straw man that you set up and are continuing to shoot down because it's easier than trying to argue against what the Bible says.

Now for the smoke and mirrors.

All your arguing and debating the passage doesn't change the context of any of this scripture. It doesn't change the fact that the apostle Peter, who we see received the Spirit at Pentecost, sinned by showing partiality to the gentiles while he was visiting Antioch. It doesn't change the fact that in 1 John 1, in order to prevent just such an error as yours, John starts his gospel by clearly saying that if we say we have (present tense) no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. It doesn't change the fact that James, John, and Paul all talk about believers' ongoing struggle with sin.

And as Paul ends his discourse concerning the flesh and the Spirit, he says:

Paul then goes on to say that we must not walk according to the flesh. Because with our flesh we serve the law of sin. This means that we do not obey the flesh. We struggle against it. We fight it. We walk according to the Spirit. And as we walk according to the Spirit, we put to death the deeds of the flesh.

This whole passage of scripture, starting all the way back in Romans 1 really, is an argument against taking the attitude that "if I can't attain perfection, why should I even try?" That's the whole purpose of it! But that is the attitude that you have.

Perhaps an analogy would help. If I'm a goalie in professional soccer, then my aim is never to let that ball get past me into the goal. At some point in my career, I realize that, though it won't happen every game, there will be times when that ball will get past me into that goal. I can react in two ways. I can:
(1) train my body and my mind to block that ball from reaching the goal as often as I can
or (2) say "I won't be able to stop it every time, so what's the point of even trying?"

Which attitude do you think will make me a better goalie? I guarantee you that if I take the approach "why even bother trying?" I won't be a professional goalie.

This is why Paul talks about buffeting his body into submission, and training for righteousness. The more you train for righteousness, the better you are able to resist the temptation when it comes. If you take the "why even try" attitude, you submit yourself back to sin, and will not walk according to the Spirit.

Brilliant. Well said

7xlightray · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
We read both, which is confirmation of the trinity doctrine. In fact, it's not until after Jesus ascended to heaven and the apostles are teaching that we read that God raised Him up.

And, of course, if Jesus is the Word that was God, through whom the Father's power is made manifest, saying that "God raised Him up" is indeed accurate. Whether you say "God the Father" or "God the Son."

Which is why Jesus said that He would raise Himself up. Because He did.

Part 1 of 2

Where are the passages that say Jesus raised himself from the dead?
What passages do you use to show Jesus literally raised himself from the dead, not that he would, but that he did?

And are you willing to say Jesus fathered himself from the dead, for he became the son of God by the resurrection from the dead? That Jesus is the Son of the Son? That he is the Son of himself?

Right after Jesus is raised from the dead, Jesus calls our God and Father, his God and his Father. In this way Jesus is also giving us the correct way of interpretation of “God,” and “Father,” when reading scripture. God made Jesus lord. God is God the Father of all, including Jesus. So now, to insert “Jesus” anytime we fill like it, when we read “God,” would be a huge mistake, because Jesus said, God the Father, was also his God. And scripture repeatedly bares this out, even by how most of the Apostle letters start off [A list of many of them in Part 2].

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rev. 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

“Oh, well yes, this speaks of his humanness,” we would say. Jesus was one person was he not? And the claim is this person is God. There is not another person Jesus, and this one God person Jesus, is calling God his God. This is so clear and straightforward, with no contradictions.

The only passage that gave me any trouble, or wonder is in Acts 20:28, which did not make a whole lot of sense, even believing Jesus was God. For God could not truly give His blood, but creations blood, and God did not really die, but creation died. For God is not creation, and creation is not God. Until I found out the Greek manuscripts have different readings of this verse. The Greek manuscripts are more authoritative then our English translations, which they come from. For some reason, they went with the Greek manuscript that read God gave His blood, which contradicts Romans 1:23. They put nails in his hands and feet, and a spear in his side, not to mention, the flogging, and ripping out his beard, and death. That is corruptible. Which is supposedly where God's blood came from.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

It tells us why Jesus is lord, and it's not because he is God, but because of his death and resurrection, and we are his body through his death and resurrection.

Goatee · Feb 8, 2016

Even the Saints sinned. The writers of the Gospels sinned and yet they wrote the 'Word of God'. The Holy Spirit helps us on that journey where temptation bites away at us and the Holy Spirit is there guiding us, trying to keep us from sinning. If the Saints sinned what chance have we of never sinning!? Its with Gods grace that we are able to turn away from sin but, when we do sin, we can turn to God for forgiveness! Again, and again! Just like jesus said about the number of times we can forgive a sinner.

Jesus came to save sinners!

Yes, we have to believe we wont sin again. We have to hope we don't but, we know that God will always forgive us if we are truly repentant!

cgaviria · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Since we're back to this, you didn't quote any "additional" times that receiving the Spirit was recorded in the Bible as being evidenced by tongues. You only used two of the three examples that I already cited, that were also explained.

Acts 2: Pentecost
Acts 19: John the Baptist's disciples

Nobody's denying the power of the Spirit to change lives. That's just another strawman you're throwing up to shoot at. The difference is that I believe without the Spirit we are powerless to resist temptation. You believe that the Spirit means we can be perfect in this life.

And in terms of sin, you can say what you want, but the Bible clearly says Peter was showing partiality. The Bible clearly says showing partiality is a sin. Therefore, Peter committed a sin.

Peter did not sin, he was operating out of his own measure of belief. What you don't realize is that you are grabbing passages in scripture to try to permit your own sins, yet we are called by Jesus Christ to be perfect,

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

And to not sin any more,

She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. (John 8:11 [KJV])

So you are in error suggesting that sins can still be committed after being born of God.

7xlightray · Feb 8, 2016

nomadictheist said:
.

Part 2 of 2

This is in no way an exhausted list. And if you follow this pattern when reading the scripture, they will flow naturally.

What we have to ask ourselves, is why is Jesus never introduced as also our God in the introduction of these letters. Why does it never say “peace from God the Father, Son, even the Holy Spirit, which is never mentioned in any of these letter introductions?

See if you can notice a pattern...

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Galatians 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1 Timothy 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

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Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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