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Why the theistic evolution position is both unbiblical and impossible

Keachian

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If life can appear from non-life, develop the ability to reproduce itself in the first generation, self design itself through the addition of information resulting from random chance until it has evolved into humans, why couldn't an invertebrate develop into a vertebrate, or vice versa. After all, allowing for billions of years, isn't anything possible?

:doh: I didn't say that an invertebrate cannot develop into a vertebrate, I've even said what types of invertebrates develop into vertebrates, I have also said that vertebrates cannot develop into invertebrates. The reasons for this is a misunderstanding of cladistics and what an invertebrate is (roughly defined it is anything outside of the clade vertebrata)

clade-not-a-clade.gif

We see that a clade does not exclude things that are hierarchically lower than itself, this follows the addage "each after their own kind"
 
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Keachian

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Well, are you Darwinians going to ask it or will I have to do it for you?

This is unbelievable. The only confusion I've seen worse than this is among the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Invertebrates is anything in the clade metazoa that doesn't reside in the clade vertebrata this includes all chordates that is those metazoans with a nerve system (with or without a brain) that are not vertebrates as well such as Cephalochordata and Tunicates it is more likely that vertebrates evolved from something similar to one of these.
 
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Keachian

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Invertebrates is anything in the clade metazoa that doesn't reside in the clade vertebrata this includes all chordates that is those metazoans with a nerve system (with or without a brain) that are not vertebrates as well such as Cephalochordata and Tunicates it is more likely that vertebrates evolved from something similar to one of these.

Just a bit of a clarification chordates require both a nerve chord and a notochord.
 
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Kirkwhisper

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Hmm, still no genetic formula for ANY of the organisms we are told 'evolved' over millions of years. None for man from the so-called common ancestor. None for the divergance of vertebrates from invertebrates. And none from one-celled organisms to any kind of animal or plant.

My counterparts keep feigning ignorance of my challenge saying, "what exactly is he asking for?" pretending that I did not go to great lengths to illustrate and define exactly what I was saying about a half dozen or more times. The formulas for the crossing of well known species within the same family were given repeatedly and they stupifyingly responded with, 'Huh? What he's asking for proves he doesn't know what he's talking about!"

Really? Then why do other evolutionists tell us:

Quote: "In biology, a substitution model describes the process from which a sequence of characters changes into another set of traits. For example, in cladistics, each position in the sequence might correspond to a property of a species which can either be present or absent. The alphabet could then consist of "0" for absence and "1" for presence. Then the sequence 00110 could mean, for example, that a species does not have feathers or lay eggs, does have fur, is warm-blooded, and cannot breathe underwater. Another sequence 11010 would mean that a species has feathers, lays eggs, does not have fur, is warm-blooded, and cannot breathe underwater. In phylogenetics, sequences are often obtained by firstly obtaining a nucleotide or protein sequence alignment, and then taking the bases or amino acids at corresponding positions in the alignment as the characters. Sequences achieved by this might look like AGCGGAGCTTA and GCCGTAGACGC.




Substitution models are used for a number of things:
  1. Constructing evolutionary trees in phylogenetics or cladistics."
So they tell us they've got the means to come up with the classifications but where are those formulas? Why don't they publish the formula that explains mans (homo) divergance from the 'common ancestor' (hominini?). We never see that...even though they admit they have the means and the ability to obtain it. Could it be because they do not know what that 'common ancestor' actually was and they cannot derive information for an organism that did not exist?

The people at the U. of Wisconsin & USC combined in an effort in this regard and published their work entitled:

Evidence from Nuclear Sequences That Invariable Sites
Should Be Considered when Sequence

Divergence Is Calculated

This was published under the category: genetic formula for man's divergence from a common ancestor

So it's right on target with our subject.

They concluded:

The estimation of the number of nucleotide substitutions is of major concern to
molecular evolutionary biologists, since any calculation of the rates of change of DNA
sequence requires an estimate of sequence divergence. The most popular method
estimating this number is Jukes and Cantor’s ( 1969 ), which depends on the assumption
that nucleotide substitutions occur at random among the four nucleotides and that

the substitution rate is the same for all nucleotide positions. However, it has been
shown that actual sequences do not evolve according to these two assumptions.
Transition differences are more frequent than transversion differences in both
mitochondrial sequences (Brown et al. 1982; Brown and Simpson 1982; Aquadro and Greenberg 1983) and nuclear sequences (Van Ooyen et al. 1979; Fitch 1980; Gojobori et al.19826).



The higher frequency of transitions is contrary to what one would expect if
a nucleotide were supplanted by each of its three alternatives at equal rates.




I want you to notice that the expectations of these Darwinist biologists and the results they got were two different things. So they thought that observation of certain point mutations would bring about the assumed evolutionary predictions but got just the opposite.

(Note: for the reader to know) - a transition is a point mutation that changes a purine nucleotide to another purine (A ↔G ) or a pyrimidine nucleotide to another pyrimidine (C ↔T) nucleotide. A transversion exchanges a purine for a pyrimidine or a pyrimidine for a purine in the process of what is known as a point mutation.

Hmm, the conclusions reported in the pro-evolution Oxford Journal again. Now I KNOW the Darwinians here won't believe it!

But should their results be surprising in light of what we have already learned on this matter?

Quote: Studies in the fly Drosophila melanogaster suggest that if a mutation changes a protein produced by a gene, this will probably be harmful, with about 70 percent of these mutations having damaging effects, and the remainder being either neutral or weakly beneficial. (Wikipedia).

Our resident PhD just swept these conclusions aside and stubbornly maintained that there are enough beneficial mutations in the DNA of living organisms to justify their 'evolution' from one type of organism to another. His evidence? Zero. Extinctions are far out-distancing the supposed 'evolved' organisms astronomically.
 
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Greg1234

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The kind is the divine principle from which form extends. In the Hermetic tradition t starts from the "Gods" "And every God, by his internal power, did that which was commanded him; and there were made four-footed things, and creeping things, and such as live in the water, and such as fly, and every fruitful seed, and Grass, and the Flowers of all Greens, all which had sowed in themselves the Seeds of Regeneration." The Root in Gnosticism "Will matter then be destroyed or not?

22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone." The arbiter of flesh in the NT "39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another." The superiors in the Kabbalah, kinds in Genesis and the monads of Plato.

platf001.gif


So the Creationists concept of kinds doesn't come from Genesis, it comes from Plato and Greek philosophy?

Do you see the Kabbalah? And the NT saying that all flesh is not the same?
 
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Keachian

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My counterparts keep feigning ignorance of my challenge saying, "what exactly is he asking for?" pretending that I did not go to great lengths to illustrate and define exactly what I was saying about a half dozen or more times. The formulas for the crossing of well known species within the same family were given repeatedly and they stupifyingly responded with, 'Huh? What he's asking for proves he doesn't know what he's talking about!"
Well, I don't understand what your talking about either so that make two of us :D

Substitution model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[/LIST]So they tell us they've got the means to come up with the classifications but where are those formulas? Why don't they publish the formula that explains mans (homo) divergance from the 'common ancestor' (hominini?). We never see that...even though they admit they have the means and the ability to obtain it. Could it be because they do not know what that 'common ancestor' actually was and they cannot derive information for an organism that did not exist?
You understand what a model is don't you, if not here is a wiki page for it. If all you are wanting is a model showing that we have a common ancestry with other apes then you can find that in phylogenetic trees, oh wait you've already ruled them out because all I've been talking about today has been phylogenetic trees.

The people at the U. of Wisconsin & USC combined in an effort in this regard and published their work link

I want you to notice that the expectations of these Darwinist biologists and the results they got were two different things. So they thought that observation of certain point mutations would bring about the assumed evolutionary predictions but got just the opposite.

Just one note, an Introduction is not a Conclusion You also don't appear to have read the Abstract which is a summation of the whole of the report including the conclusion.

(Note: for the reader to know) - a transition is a point mutation that changes a purine nucleotide to another purine (A ↔G ) or a pyrimidine nucleotide to another pyrimidine (C ↔T) nucleotide. A transversion exchanges a purine for a pyrimidine or a pyrimidine for a purine in the process of what is known as a point mutation.
Nothing new

Hmm, the conclusions reported in the pro-evolution Oxford Journal again. Now I KNOW the Darwinians here won't believe it!
What were the conclusions?
 
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Assyrian

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Darwin probably regarded the treatment of "savage" people the same way we regard animals - we don't like mistreating them, and we punish people who do, but that doesn't make them our equals:
At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.

- The Descent of Man
(page 201)​
But this is just a minor point. Victorian attitudes towards race do not disprove evolution.
I don't buy the view that scientific ideas can be racist. Science is about facts and is either right or wrong. What matters is a persons heart attitude, is the bigotry in his heart the reason he holds these views, does he use them as an excuse to proclaim his own racial superiority and despise others as inferiority, or to justify discrimination against other ethnic groups.

Darwin doesn't seem to have questioned Aristotle's ancient view of the ladder of being, that not only went from plants and fish up through the animals but said some people were higher up the ladder than others. But while he hadn't questioned it, it wasn't the point of his theory and is only seemingly touched on here in a discussion of why we see gaps in the fossil record.

What Darwin actually taught was that there was a vast gap between every human and the animals.
Man in the rudest state in which he now exists is the most dominant animal that has ever appeared on this earth He has spread more widely that any other highly organised form: and all others have yielded before him. He manifestly owes this immense superiority to his intellectual faculties, to his social habits, which lead him to aid and defend his fellows, and to his corporeal structure. The supreme importance of these characters has been proved by the final arbitrament of the battle for life.
There were superficial difference between the different ethnic groups, but it was the similarities, especially the similarities in intellect and character, that struck Darwin more than anything else.
Although the existing races of man differ in many respects, as in colour, hair, shape of skull, proportions of the body, etc., yet if their whole structure be taken into consideration they are found to resemble each other closely in a multitude of points. Many of these are of so unimportant or of so singular a nature, that it is extremely improbable that they should have been independently acquired by aboriginally distinct species or races. The same remark holds good with equal or greater force with respect to the numerous points of mental similarity between the most distinct races of man. The American aborigines, Negroes and Europeans are as different from each other in mind as any three races that can be named; yet I was incessantly struck, whilst living with the Fuegians on board the "Beagle," with the many little traits of character, shewing how similar their minds were to ours; and so it was with a full-blooded negro with whom I happened once to be intimate.
[FONT=&quot]Looking back to your original quote, do you notice the way Darwin isn't proclaiming the superiority of his own culture, but how uncivilised the 'civilised races' are in their exterminating their fellow man? He doesn't see his own race as the pinnacle of evolution, but hopes that what ever race replaces the Caucasians will be a bit more civilised.

[/FONT]
 
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Kirkwhisper

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Well, no I'm not pretending and "kicking and screaming" is an idiom of mine for people who continually make accusations against me even when I have shown that they are not true.


I'm not sure you understand genetics, heck I don't understand it I make no claims on that, but all of those examples you give except for the last one have not happened. I have told you this, you have set up a strawman saying man came from chimps or invertebrates came from vertebrates and so when I agree with you that this didn't happen you're like "Hah! I told you that it didn't happen!" pleased with yourself that I agree that your strawmen are ridiculous. I can tell you why a fish is also a Craniate, Chordate, Animal, Filozoa, Holozoa, Opisthokonta and Eukaryota if you'd like, however this won't be based on genetic formulas as you wish (I wouldn't even know where to start :D) but rather on phylogenetic differences between the fish and other creatures residing in these categories.


So because I accept evolution based on the facts I'm pretending. You even say I'm duped in this sentence, the two are mutually exclusive rather than being interchangeable as you suggest.

There are no 'facts' supporting your position. Only an interpretation of the facts that is not warranted by the evidence. End of line.
 
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Kirkwhisper

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1 Corinthians 15:39 (ESV)
For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.

Good for you. I don't care for that particular translation but you are absolutely right. The trouble is, they don't care.
 
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Assyrian

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1 Corinthians 15:39 (ESV)
For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
I don't know about the Kabbalah, but I don't think 1Cor 15 establishes the Creationist concept of kinds. The problem is it is taking a metaphorical illustration of the resurrection, then taking it way beyond how Paul used it, and reading much more into the illustration than he ever intended.

Besides any pathologist will be able to tell you different animals have different tissues and will be able to identify a piece of dead meat found at a crime scene. Doesn't mean dog and bears, humans and chimps weren't once single species with their own sort of flesh.
 
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Keachian

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There are no 'facts' supporting your position. Only an interpretation of the facts that is not warranted by the evidence. End of line.

Ok, let's first of all have a look at the definition of a fact in Science:
"a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation" Fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now we have a common baseline to go from.
These are the observed and verifiable facts:
  • Mutations occur
  • speciation events happen
  • we have swathes of morphologically similar fossils
  • we can construct a tree of life based on:
    • Genetics
    • Paeleontology
    • Embryology
    • etc
  • These trees completely match
  • These trees can be built in both directions
  • All creatures continue to have the attributes of their ancestors

I'm sure there are more I just can't recall them off the top of my head. So now that I've addressed the point you made as a bit of a contradiction can you address the points I've made?
 
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Kirkwhisper

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This person who doesn't even have enough spiritual discernment to not use a pagan name and the face of a pagan avatar (Ashurbanipal, the bloodthirsty tyrant who murdered God's people and flayed his enemies alive) expects discerning Christians to believe what he says about evolution and Darwin? He thinks that by twisting scripture (in this case, I Corinthians 15:39) that such behavior engenders respect for him or for his views?

Notice that he refutes....not mathetes123...because mathetes didn't say ONE WORD; he only quoted the scripture. Yet the pagan-named-one decides to refute the obvious meaning of the verse! He has proven to all who are not brainwashed like he is that it doesn't make any difference how clear-cut and understandable God's Word is..........like the Jehovah's Witnesses he twists the scripture to mean what he wants them to mean; all to defend his evil cause, Darwinian evolution.

After making a few more posts I'll be leaving Christian Forums today for perhaps quite awhile.

Best wishes to all my faithful friends.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind


All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

End of line.
 
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Kirkwhisper

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Ok, let's first of all have a look at the definition of a fact in Science:
"a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation" Fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now we have a common baseline to go from.

These are the observed and verifiable facts:
  • Mutations occur
  • speciation events happen
  • we have swathes of morphologically similar fossils
  • we can construct a tree of life based on:
    • Genetics
    • Paeleontology
    • Embryology
    • etc
  • These trees completely match
  • These trees can be built in both directions
  • All creatures continue to have the attributes of their ancestors
I'm sure there are more I just can't recall them off the top of my head. So now that I've addressed the point you made as a bit of a contradiction can you address the points I've made?

You're finished, progmonk. I can take down each point you listed above with no problem just like I have every time you posted your nonsensical interpretations of scientific fact. Genetics is what GOD says it is in scripture (after his kind) and not the neo-Darwinian interpretation. Paeleonotology favors the creationist view and isn't even close to Darwinism.

What you believe in is a joke. You will answer for your unbelief in due time. All who twisted God's Word and pretended that evolution is the truth will answer in that yet appointed day.
 
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Incariol

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Genetics is what GOD says it is in scripture (after his kind) and not the neo-Darwinian interpretation. Paeleonotology favors the creationist view and isn't even close to Darwinism.

Easy enough to say when you never bother defining your terms.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Kirkwhisper said:
This person who doesn't even have enough spiritual discernment to not use a pagan name and the face of a pagan avatar (Ashurbanipal, the bloodthirsty tyrant who murdered God's people and flayed his enemies alive) expects discerning Christians to believe what he says about evolution and Darwin?
It appears you've run out of arguments and misquotes if your only retort is to criticise a person's username.

It we assume 1 Corinthians 15:39 is being literal, the fact that animals, birds, fish and humans have different 'flesh' is hardly a surprise. This has been said before, but saying animals cannot breed beyond their "kind" doesn't disprove evolution - it supports it. Animals have difficulty breeding beyond the species level (although plants do not). No sensible evolutionist would say that chimps can give birth to humans.

Kirkwhisper said:
After making a few more posts I'll be leaving Christian Forums today for perhaps quite awhile.
Good.
 
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Keachian

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You're finished, progmonk. I can take down each point you listed above with no problem just like I have every time you posted your nonsensical interpretations of scientific fact. Genetics is what GOD says it is in scripture (after his kind) and not the neo-Darwinian interpretation. Paeleonotology favors the creationist view and isn't even close to Darwinism.
lots of kicking and screaming, not a lot of talk, those I've listed there are demonstrable facts, they are not interpretations of facts. Creationists have not presented an explanation of the diversity of life that encompases all those facts, the one they most like to leave out or wave away is the speciation one.

What you believe in is a joke. You will answer for your unbelief in due time. All who twisted God's Word and pretended that evolution is the truth will answer in that yet appointed day.
I believe in God, I'd hope that you don't believe he is a joke. I accept the modern evolutionary synthesis as the best explanation of diversity of life and see the fact of evolution throughout creation.
 
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Assyrian

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This person who doesn't even have enough spiritual discernment to not use a pagan name and the face of a pagan avatar (Ashurbanipal, the bloodthirsty tyrant who murdered God's people and flayed his enemies alive) expects discerning Christians to believe what he says about evolution and Darwin? He thinks that by twisting scripture (in this case, I Corinthians 15:39) that such behavior engenders respect for him or for his views?
Since all you can come up with in response is name calling, it sounds like I made a reasonable case.

Isaiah 19:23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and Assyria will come into Egypt, and Egypt into Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians. 24 In that day Israel will be the third with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the earth, 25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my inheritance."

Notice that he refutes....not mathetes123...because mathetes didn't say ONE WORD; he only quoted the scripture.
mathetes joined in the discussion, why shouldn't I reply to him??

Yet the pagan-named-one decides to refute the obvious meaning of the verse! He has proven to all who are not brainwashed like he is that it doesn't make any difference how clear-cut and understandable God's Word is..........like the Jehovah's Witnesses he twists the scripture to mean what he wants them to mean; all to defend his evil cause, Darwinian evolution.
So no actual discussion of the verse, no attempt to defend your interpretation, or deal with the problem I pointed out, just the claim that it is 'the obvious meaning'. And you call us brainwashed?

After making a few more posts I'll be leaving Christian Forums today for perhaps quite awhile.

Best wishes to all my faithful friends.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;

And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind

All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

End of line.
It is pretty empty just repeating 1Cor 15:39 when you can't back up you interpretation of it. You had the same problem when you kept quoting the image of God verses. If you are misinterpreting a passage and cannot back up your interpretation, simply repeating the verses over and over again doesn't make your argument any better.
 
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