Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

Metal Minister · May 31, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
It is not confusing. If Metal Minister is teaching something that differs from PSA - and he appears to be doing just that - then my comment is not directed at his particular teaching but if he is teaching PSA then my comment is intended to remind everybody that
Penal substitutionary atonement does not encompass both sides.

Then on that, we agree. I believe its at best only 1/2 of the equation.

Eliwho · May 31, 2013

Clare73 said:
Not quite.

Resisting arrest of lawful officers of the law is not a Constitutional right.

It's law breaking.

Not according to the constitution.

There can be no laws that violate the rights of the individual, laid out in the constitution.

Comments like yers disgrace the blood of every patriot who ever died, so you could say that.

LittleLambofJesus · May 31, 2013

Originally Posted by Clare73

Not quite.

Resisting arrest of lawful officers of the law is not a Constitutional right.

It's law breaking.

Eliwho said:
Not according to the constitution.

There can be no laws that violate the rights of the individual, laid out in the constitution.

Comments like yers disgrace the blood of every patriot who ever died, so you could say that.

Not sure how this applies to the topic of the post.
Perhaps this board would be more appropriate?

http://www.christianforums.com/f139/
Society Forums to discuss issues with society.

Eliwho · May 31, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Not sure how this applies to the topic of the post.
Perhaps this board would be more appropriate?

http://www.christianforums.com/f139/
Society Forums to discuss issues with society.

It came up earlier in the thread.
When coffee was quoting movie scenes as a substitution for scripture.
Figgered it was over till somebody brought it back up.

Lovely Lane · May 31, 2013

Law; if some one came into your home and broke your china and you forgave them, you absorbed the cost to replace the china. Your forgiveness didn't wipe out the tab in replacing the china. PSA in issues concerning society- neighbor v. neighbor

OpenDoor · May 31, 2013

Now that we are +300 into this thread. I have a question for the OP.
Do you (and the church you attend) believe that Jesus died because of the sins of other? Do you believe that Jesus had to die, or was that an unfortunate accident?

OpenDoor · May 31, 2013

Catholic Dude said:
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Curse here refers to a humiliating death. It does not refer to God's Wrath in the sense of a sinner suffering hellfire. In other words, he that is hanged is suffering a humiliating death.

So it is your understanding that this verse should be read as-
Christ hath redeemed us from the humiliating death of the law, being made a humiliating death for us: for it is written, humiliating death [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

What does the word cursed mean here?
"Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"
Deuteronomy 27:26

OpenDoor · May 31, 2013

I would also like to know what is your understanding of this verse?

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Acts 20:28

Specifically, "He purchased with His own blood."

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

OpenDoor said:
Now that we are +300 into this thread. I have a question for the OP.

Do you (and the church you attend) believe that Jesus died because of the sins of other? Do you believe that Jesus had to die, or was that an unfortunate accident?

Scripture tells us that Christ died to save his people from their sins. This was necessary, as explained in the book of Hebrews in the new testament.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Hebrews 9:11-12)

The rest of the chapter continues with the argument for the necessity of Christ's death. The words in verses 15 to 26 explain the necessity.

The Catholic Church has these things to say about our redemption:

REDEEMER/REDEMPTION: Jesus Christ, redeemer of mankind. Christ paid the price of his own sacrificial death on the cross to ransom us, to set us free from the slavery of sin, thus achieving our redemption (571, 601; cf. 517, 1372).

571 The Paschal mystery of Christ’s cross and Resurrection stands at the center of the Good News that the apostles, and the Church following them, are to proclaim to the world. God’s saving plan was accomplished “once for all”(Heb 9:26) by the redemptive death of his Son Jesus Christ. (1067)

1067 “The wonderful works of God among the people of the Old Testament were but a prelude to the work of Christ the Lord in redeeming mankind and giving perfect glory to God. He accomplished this work principally by the Paschal mystery of his blessed Passion, Resurrection from the dead, and glorious Ascension, whereby ‘dying he destroyed our death, rising he restored our life.’ For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth ‘the wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’”3 For this reason, the Church celebrates in the liturgy above all the Paschal mystery by which Christ accomplished the work of our salvation.

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.(Isa 53:11; cf. 53:12; Jn 8:34-36; Acts 3:14) Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received,” St. Paul professes that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.”(1 Cor 15:3; cf. also Acts 3:18; 7:52; 13:29; 26:22-23) In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfils Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.(Cf. Isa 53:7-8 and Acts 8:32-35) Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.(Cf. Mt 20:28) After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.(Cf. Lk 24:25-27, 44-45) (652, 713)

652 Christ’s Resurrection is the fulfillment of the promises both of the Old Testament and of Jesus himself during his earthly life.(Cf. Mt 28:6; Mk 16:7; Lk 24:6-7, 26-27, 44-48) The phrase “in accordance with the Scriptures”(Cf. 1 Cor 15:3-4; cf. the Nicene Creed) indicates that Christ’s Resurrection fulfilled these predictions. (994)

994 But there is more. Jesus links faith in the resurrection to his own person: “I am the Resurrection and the life.”(Jn 11:25) It is Jesus himself who on the last day will raise up those who have believed in him, who have eaten his body and drunk his blood.(Cf. Jn 5:24-25; 6:40, 54) Already now in this present life he gives a sign and pledge of this by restoring some of the dead to life,(Cf. Mk 5:21-42; Lk 7:11-17; Jn 11) announcing thereby his own Resurrection, though it was to be of another order. He speaks of this unique event as the “sign of Jonah,”( Mt 12:39) the sign of the temple: he announces that he will be put to death but rise thereafter on the third day.(Cf. Mk 10:34; Jn 2:19-22)

713 The Messiah’s characteristics are revealed above all in the “Servant songs.”(Cf. Isa 42:1-9; cf. Mt 12:18-21; Jn 1:32-34; then cf. Isa 49:1-6; cf. Mt 3:17; Lk 2:32; finally cf. Isa 50:4-10 and Isa 52:13-53:12) These songs proclaim the meaning of Jesus’ Passion and show how he will pour out the Holy Spirit to give life to the many: not as an outsider, but by embracing our “form as slave.”(Phil 2:7) Taking our death upon himself, he can communicate to us his own Spirit of life.

517 Christ’s whole life is a mystery of redemption. Redemption comes to us above all through the blood of his cross,(Cf. Eph 1:7; Col 1:13-14; 1 Pet 1:18-19) but this mystery is at work throughout Christ’s entire life:

already in his Incarnation through which by becoming poor he enriches us with his poverty;(Cf. 2 Cor 8:9)
in his hidden life which by his submission atones for our disobedience;(Cf. Lk 2:51)
in his word which purifies its hearers;(Cf. Jn 15:3)
in his healings and exorcisms by which “he took our infirmities and bore our diseases”;( Mt 8:17; cf. Isa 53:4)
and in his Resurrection by which he justifies us.(Cf. Rom 4:25)

1372 St. Augustine admirably summed up this doctrine that moves us to an ever more complete participation in our Redeemer’s sacrifice which we celebrate in the Eucharist:

This wholly redeemed city, the assembly and society of the saints, is offered to God as a universal sacrifice by the high priest who in the form of a slave went so far as to offer himself for us in his Passion, to make us the Body of so great a head.... Such is the sacrifice of Christians: “we who are many are one Body in Christ.’‘ The Church continues to reproduce this sacrifice in the sacrament of the altar so well-known to believers wherein it is evident to them that in what she offers she herself is offered.(St. Augustine, De civ. Dei, 10, 6: PL 41, 283; cf. Rom 12:5)

-- Source: The Catechism of the Catholic Church Glossary and The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

def · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Scripture tells us that Christ died to save his people from their sins. This was necessary, as explained in the book of Hebrews in the new testament.

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Hebrews 9:11-12)

The rest of the chapter continues with the argument for the necessity of Christ's death. The words in verses 15 to 26 explain the necessity.

What does it mean, "he entered once for all into the Holy Place taking his own blood?' If you take blood as his death, he could not have taken his death into the Holy Place. And, what and where is this Holy Place?

I suggest, the Holy Place is the temple of the Holy Spirit, the believer. Jesus Christ enters the believer through the Holy Spirit. The blood that he takes into the Holy Place is the Holy Spirit.

waheedgul · Jun 1, 2013

God Bless You Brther

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

def said:
What does it mean, "he entered once for all into the Holy Place taking his own blood?' If you take blood as his death, he could not have taken his death into the Holy Place. And, what and where is this Holy Place?

I suggest, the Holy Place is the temple of the Holy Spirit, the believer. Jesus Christ enters the believer through the Holy Spirit. The blood that he takes into the Holy Place is the Holy Spirit.

An interesting perspective but then how do you explain Jesus death and why it is presented in Hebrews nine as a sacrifice and why his blood is mentioned if what is meant is Spirit?

def · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
An interesting perspective but then how do you explain Jesus death and why it is presented in Hebrews nine as a sacrifice and why his blood is mentioned if what is meant is Spirit?

A sacrifice is something offered to God. What is offered to God? Hebrews 9:14 - it is the eternal Spirit that is offered as a propitiation.

Jesus death is to destroy the one that had the power of death (Heb 2:14). Death cannot hold Jesus, and he was raised again. Without death there is no resurrection. Without resurrection there is no gospel and no hope for us. His death took away the consequence of Adam's sin.

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

def said:
A sacrifice is something offered to God. What is offered to God? Hebrews 9:14 - it is the eternal Spirit that is offered as a propitiation.

Jesus death is to destroy the one that had the power of death (Heb 2:14). Death cannot hold Jesus, and he was raised again. Without death there is no resurrection. Without resurrection there is no gospel and no hope for us. His death took away the consequence of Adam's sin.

In Hebrews 9:14 it is Christ himself that is offered not the Spirit. The Spirit provided the instrumentality through which the offering is made.

For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (Hebrews 9:13-14)

def · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
In Hebrews 9:14 it is Christ himself that is offered not the Spirit. The Spirit provided the instrumentality through which the offering is made.

For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (Hebrews 9:13-14)

The blood of Christ is offered, not Christ. And the modifier for the blood of Christ follows, which is " through the eternal Spirit."

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

def said:
The blood of Christ is offered, not Christ. And the modifier for the blood of Christ follows, which is " through the eternal Spirit."

That is incorrect. Christ himself is offered, and his blood is included, of course. That's what the passage says.

For if the blood of goats and bulls, with the sprinkling of the ashes of a heifer, sanctifies those who have been defiled so that their flesh is purified, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God! (Hebrews 9:13-14)

def · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
In Hebrews 9:14 it is Christ himself that is offered not the Spirit. The Spirit provided the instrumentality through which the offering is made.

For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. (Hebrews 9:13-14)

And I add. If one removes the modifer the phrase becomes, " the blood of Christ purify your conscience to serve the living God." And who cleanses and helps us serve the living God, but the Holy Spirit.

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

def said:
And I add. If one removes the modifer the phrase becomes, " the blood of Christ purify your conscience to serve the living God." And who cleanses and helps us serve the living God, but the Holy Spirit.

If one removes words one can make a passage say almost anything. The fact remains that the passage says that Christ offered himself to God.

For if the blood of goats and bulls, with the sprinkling of the ashes of a heifer, sanctifies those who have been defiled so that their flesh is purified, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God! (Hebrews 9:13-14)

mmksparbud · Jun 1, 2013

Well, here I go again---You have to study the old covenant to fully understand about the Holy Place. The tabernacle service (both in the mobile one in the dessert wandering and the Holy temples later more permanently made)were made according to the pattern of the heavenly sanctuary--Heb 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith He, that thou make all things according to the pattern shown to thee in the mount."
Heb 8:1-4 "Now of the which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens:a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle , which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law."
Verse 5 is quoted above--Heb *:6 "For now hath he ordained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that 1st covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the 2nd. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
Please read the rest of the chapter.
Heb 9:1 "then verily the 1st covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary" then it goes on to name all the articles that were in the Holy Place and the veil and then into the Most Holy place. The Most Holy place was entered once a year by the High Priest, having sprinkled the blood of bulls and goats for the sins of the people and his own, upon the veil and upon the Mercy Seat--the throne of God. "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission." Heb 9:22.
Heb 9:24-- "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."
When Christ comes with the city and the earth is made new, there will be no tabernacle. Rev 21:3 n "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Rick Otto · Jun 1, 2013

mmksparbud said:
Well, here I go again---You have to study the old covenant to fully understand about the Holy Place. The tabernacle service (both in the mobile one in the dessert wandering and the Holy temples later more permanently made)were made according to the pattern of the heavenly sanctuary--Heb 8:5 "Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith He, that thou make all things according to the pattern shown to thee in the mount."
Heb 8:1-4 "Now of the which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an High Priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens:a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle , which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if He were on earth, He should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law."
Verse 5 is quoted above--Heb *:6 "For now hath he ordained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that 1st covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the 2nd. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
Please read the rest of the chapter.
Heb 9:1 "then verily the 1st covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary" then it goes on to name all the articles that were in the Holy Place and the veil and then into the Most Holy place. The Most Holy place was entered once a year by the High Priest, having sprinkled the blood of bulls and goats for the sins of the people and his own, upon the veil and upon the Mercy Seat--the throne of God. "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission." Heb 9:22.
Heb 9:24-- "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."
When Christ comes with the city and the earth is made new, there will be no tabernacle. Rev 21:3 n "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."

What a relief. There really will be a "happily ever after".
Yeah, Jesus sacrificed His blood, but His whole life was a sacrifice of obediance. His whole life went up on the cross with His blood. 'For the life is in the blood...' (Lev17).

Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

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