Why the obsession with End Times prophesy?

[boughtwithaprice]

There seems to be in Christianity a curiosity or fascination with end times prophesy. Those that more forcefully proclaim their prophecies are seen as more biblically knowledgeable and receive the attention of many. Some stir up fear in our hearts and others fascination and others a sense that we are really getting to know the Bible. Is this what we should be doing with our walk with the Lord on Earth? Is this what He told us to do?


Jesus words are
Take no thought for tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself, sufficient in the day is the evil thereof.
It is not for you to known the times or the seasons which the Father Has fixed by His own authority
In an hour you think not, the Son of Man cometh. (You are blessed of Jesus finds you doing what He told you to do, and not obsessing about when He comes)

Matthew 6:34, Acts 7:1, Matthew 24:44


Frequently we find in assemblies those that appear very Biblical and can show you prophesy all day, but their behavior does not line up with scripture. It is so plain that a child can see it, but we are told not to judge. They can keep sinning because they are under the blood. Many will talk prophecy, very few accept correction. Is that what Christianity is all about?
I don’t think so. I believe that prophecy and end times obsession are a distraction that keeps us from concentrating on what Jesus really wants us to do. So why don’t we do it? Well there are many reasons, but many are deceived by the teaching that we are not saved by our works, so we won’t do any, and then scoff or chastise those that try to do them.
That is a perfect distraction that keeps us from heaven. Tickle the mind with thoughts of great prophetic knowledge, and dull the senses to what we are doing because it is meaningless.
Is that true? Is that Biblical? Well it is true that we are not saved by our works, but those that are going to be saved will do good works, and they will keep doing them until they die or the Son of Man comes. It’s that simple. Don’t believe me? check out the Bible. Jesus calls all men everywhere to repent. He says to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him. Following Him takes action, it is a way of suffering, but it does not require much effort. Why? Because we have plenty of chances to follow Him in suffering if we just accept it.
Think of all the people that annoy you or cause you injustice. What did Jesus tell you to do about them? Ever hear of love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you? Why should we do that? Because Jesus told us to do it, and God sends your enemies to you to help you grow in virtue. Just follow His commands. The one that you hate the most is the one that you should be friends with and love the most. It hurts and it’s humiliating and hard, but every blow and every stripe, every insult and spittle our Lord received was unjust. Should we not follow Him and accept injustice in our lives willingly and lovingly? Our enemies are God’s call to us that this is what He wants you to do. Think about it.
Why are you so angry at others and complain about the hurts you feel? Jesus said to rejoice when you suffer
We would rather think ourselves biblical by studying prophecy, rather than accepting what God is calling us to do.
What do the goats say to God when they get to the judgement seat? Lord, we prophesied in your name, you taught in our streets and we did many wonderful works for you. What does He say? I never knew you. Why? Because you fails to respond when He knocked at the door of your heart. Your enemies are those knocks at the door of your heart. How do we know? Because God told us to love our enemies and He promised that you will not suffer anything above which you are able to endure.
Don’t know how to love your enemies? Then pray and ask God what you should do. Study why you hate someone and really think about why this is causing you so much pain. If you do that, God will show you, and if you respond, He will give you bigger things to do. Did He not say he that is faithful in small things will be given greater responsibility? It takes no effort to follow Jesus. Just look around at your enemies and you will be following the Gospel. Jesus tells us we are His servants and we are not greater than our master. He was beaten to death and hung on a cross. Why should we expect a soft life?
So many people say use me Jesus. Well here is your chance. Remember your obedience to God is not dependent on what your enemy does. Some may soften and be converted, others will harden and become more cruel. You are obedient when you suffer willingly, but you need not suffer alone. Call out to God in prayer and ask Him what to do about the situation that you are in so that you may keep following Him. Be faithful unto death and He will give you a crown of life. He does not say love your enemies and I’ll make you a millionaire in this life. You need listen to what God is calling you to do by looking at your enemies, studying God’s law and acting accordingly. If you can’t take all the enemies you have, start with one and you will learn

What does Augustine say that true Pastors are like? They don’t claim to have all knowledge and distract people with prophesy about the end times. Want to know the dangers of distraction? Read the story of Eastern Airlines flight 401.

Here is Augustine

St Augustine's sermon On Pastors


I shall feed my sheep on good pasture


I shall gather them together from foreign nations and bring them back to their own land. I shall pasture them on the mountains of Israel… As the mountains of Israel, he has set up the authors of the holy Scriptures. Feed on these and you will feed in safety. Whatever you hear from them will do you good; whatever you hear from elsewhere, spit it out. Listen to the voice of your shepherd lest you lose your way and wander into the mist. Gather together on the mountains of holy Scripture. There you will find the delight of your heart: nothing poisonous, nothing strange – the richest of pastures. Simply come in good health, and feed in good health on the mountains of Israel.


…In the ravines and in every inhabited place in the land. From these mountains of Scripture flow the streams of the gospel preaching, whose sound has gone forth into all the earth so that every inhabited place of the earth has become a rich and fertile pasture for the sheep.


I shall feed them in good pasturage; the high mountains of Israel will be their grazing ground. There will they rest. That is, where they will say, “It is good here,” where they will say, “It is true, it is clear, we are not deceived.” They will take their rest in the glory of God as in their own shelters. They will sleep and take their rest in the midst of delight.


They will browse in rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. I have already spoken of the mountains of Israel, the good mountains, the mountains to which we lift up our eyes so that help will come to us from them. But remember, our help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. So to prevent us putting our hope in the mountains, as soon as he had said I shall pasture them on the mountains of Israel he added at once I shall feed my sheep. Yes, lift your eyes up to the mountains from which your help will come; but wait for him to say I shall feed. For your help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth.


And finally he says I shall feed them with judgement. Note that it is he alone who feeds them with judgement. For what man can judge another man? Wherever you look, you see rash judgements. Someone we have despaired of suddenly turns round and becomes the best of people. Someone of whom we have had high expectations suddenly fails and sinks into uselessness. There is no certainty in our foreboding, there is no certainty in our love.


Take any man. What is he today? He hardly knows himself. He has some slight idea, perhaps, of what he is today, but as for tomorrow – nothing. So the Lord feeds us all with judgement, distributing what is appropriate to each of us: this to one person, that to others, to each what they ought to have, one thing to one and another to another. For he knows what he is doing. He feeds us with judgement, us whom he redeemed after he had himself been judged. So he feeds us all with judgement.

 

[dwb001]

What a ramble.... try a shorter rant with a few questions.

You would get better engagement with a concise statement of your position with a few followup questions.

 

[The Liturgist]

There seems to be in Christianity a curiosity or fascination with end times prophesy. Those that more forcefully proclaim their prophecies are seen as more biblically knowledgeable and receive the attention of many. Some stir up fear in our hearts and others fascination and others a sense that we are really getting to know the Bible. Is this what we should be doing with our walk with the Lord on Earth? Is this what He told us to do?


Jesus words are
Take no thought for tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself, sufficient in the day is the evil thereof.
It is not for you to known the times or the seasons which the Father Has fixed by His own authority
In an hour you think not, the Son of Man cometh. (You are blessed of Jesus finds you doing what He told you to do, and not obsessing about when He comes)

Matthew 6:34, Acts 7:1, Matthew 24:44


Frequently we find in assemblies those that appear very Biblical and can show you prophesy all day, but their behavior does not line up with scripture. It is so plain that a child can see it, but we are told not to judge. They can keep sinning because they are under the blood. Many will talk prophecy, very few accept correction. Is that what Christianity is all about?
I don’t think so. I believe that prophecy and end times obsession are a distraction that keeps us from concentrating on what Jesus really wants us to do. So why don’t we do it? Well there are many reasons, but many are deceived by the teaching that we are not saved by our works, so we won’t do any, and then scoff or chastise those that try to do them.
That is a perfect distraction that keeps us from heaven. Tickle the mind with thoughts of great prophetic knowledge, and dull the senses to what we are doing because it is meaningless.
Is that true? Is that Biblical? Well it is true that we are not saved by our works, but those that are going to be saved will do good works, and they will keep doing them until they die or the Son of Man comes. It’s that simple. Don’t believe me? check out the Bible. Jesus calls all men everywhere to repent. He says to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him. Following Him takes action, it is a way of suffering, but it does not require much effort. Why? Because we have plenty of chances to follow Him in suffering if we just accept it.
Think of all the people that annoy you or cause you injustice. What did Jesus tell you to do about them? Ever hear of love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you? Why should we do that? Because Jesus told us to do it, and God sends your enemies to you to help you grow in virtue. Just follow His commands. The one that you hate the most is the one that you should be friends with and love the most. It hurts and it’s humiliating and hard, but every blow and every stripe, every insult and spittle our Lord received was unjust. Should we not follow Him and accept injustice in our lives willingly and lovingly? Our enemies are God’s call to us that this is what He wants you to do. Think about it.
Why are you so angry at others and complain about the hurts you feel? Jesus said to rejoice when you suffer
We would rather think ourselves biblical by studying prophecy, rather than accepting what God is calling us to do.
What do the goats say to God when they get to the judgement seat? Lord, we prophesied in your name, you taught in our streets and we did many wonderful works for you. What does He say? I never knew you. Why? Because you fails to respond when He knocked at the door of your heart. Your enemies are those knocks at the door of your heart. How do we know? Because God told us to love our enemies and He promised that you will not suffer anything above which you are able to endure.
Don’t know how to love your enemies? Then pray and ask God what you should do. Study why you hate someone and really think about why this is causing you so much pain. If you do that, God will show you, and if you respond, He will give you bigger things to do. Did He not say he that is faithful in small things will be given greater responsibility? It takes no effort to follow Jesus. Just look around at your enemies and you will be following the Gospel. Jesus tells us we are His servants and we are not greater than our master. He was beaten to death and hung on a cross. Why should we expect a soft life?
So many people say use me Jesus. Well here is your chance. Remember your obedience to God is not dependent on what your enemy does. Some may soften and be converted, others will harden and become more cruel. You are obedient when you suffer willingly, but you need not suffer alone. Call out to God in prayer and ask Him what to do about the situation that you are in so that you may keep following Him. Be faithful unto death and He will give you a crown of life. He does not say love your enemies and I’ll make you a millionaire in this life. You need listen to what God is calling you to do by looking at your enemies, studying God’s law and acting accordingly. If you can’t take all the enemies you have, start with one and you will learn

What does Augustine say that true Pastors are like? They don’t claim to have all knowledge and distract people with prophesy about the end times. Want to know the dangers of distraction? Read the story of Eastern Airlines flight 401.

Here is Augustine

St Augustine's sermon On Pastors


I shall feed my sheep on good pasture


I shall gather them together from foreign nations and bring them back to their own land. I shall pasture them on the mountains of Israel… As the mountains of Israel, he has set up the authors of the holy Scriptures. Feed on these and you will feed in safety. Whatever you hear from them will do you good; whatever you hear from elsewhere, spit it out. Listen to the voice of your shepherd lest you lose your way and wander into the mist. Gather together on the mountains of holy Scripture. There you will find the delight of your heart: nothing poisonous, nothing strange – the richest of pastures. Simply come in good health, and feed in good health on the mountains of Israel.


…In the ravines and in every inhabited place in the land. From these mountains of Scripture flow the streams of the gospel preaching, whose sound has gone forth into all the earth so that every inhabited place of the earth has become a rich and fertile pasture for the sheep.


I shall feed them in good pasturage; the high mountains of Israel will be their grazing ground. There will they rest. That is, where they will say, “It is good here,” where they will say, “It is true, it is clear, we are not deceived.” They will take their rest in the glory of God as in their own shelters. They will sleep and take their rest in the midst of delight.


They will browse in rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. I have already spoken of the mountains of Israel, the good mountains, the mountains to which we lift up our eyes so that help will come to us from them. But remember, our help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. So to prevent us putting our hope in the mountains, as soon as he had said I shall pasture them on the mountains of Israel he added at once I shall feed my sheep. Yes, lift your eyes up to the mountains from which your help will come; but wait for him to say I shall feed. For your help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth.


And finally he says I shall feed them with judgement. Note that it is he alone who feeds them with judgement. For what man can judge another man? Wherever you look, you see rash judgements. Someone we have despaired of suddenly turns round and becomes the best of people. Someone of whom we have had high expectations suddenly fails and sinks into uselessness. There is no certainty in our foreboding, there is no certainty in our love.


Take any man. What is he today? He hardly knows himself. He has some slight idea, perhaps, of what he is today, but as for tomorrow – nothing. So the Lord feeds us all with judgement, distributing what is appropriate to each of us: this to one person, that to others, to each what they ought to have, one thing to one and another to another. For he knows what he is doing. He feeds us with judgement, us whom he redeemed after he had himself been judged. So he feeds us all with judgement.

Indeed, this is an extremely important point, that being that in many modern megachurches, the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments are neglected while the pastor engages in what can only be described as uninformed eschatological speculation. For example, no early church father taught us that there would be a “Rapture” such as the one depicted in the extremely popular, and extremely sensationalist, Left Behind series. This idea originated with the 19th century Restorationist preacher John Nelson Darby, one of the early leaders of the denomination known as the Plymouth Brethren.

Yet these megachurches, until recently at least, were able to attract large crowds, because people find this eschatological speculation more entertaining and more intriguing, in an escapist sort of way, than the actual Gospel, which they think they know already in many cases, or in other cases they think the Gospel consists of this teaching about the Rapture and the building of a third temple in Israel being necessary to bring about the rise of the anti-Christ and a thousand year millennial reign of our Lord is the Gospel, when, even if one does subscribe to Chiliasm (which the Nicene Creed actually refutes, although most people don’t realize this; the line “Whose kingdom shall have no end” was one of the additions made at the Council of Constantinople in 381, specifically so as to exclude the Apollinarians, who believed in a Christological error but also believed in Chiliasm, which by this time the Church had come to understand was a mistake). So by preaching about these sensational and novel interpretations of Scriptural prophecy, the meaning of which is inherently obscure and in many cases is knowable only in retrospect (consider 2 Peter, where St. Peter taught that no prophecy is an exposition of itself), and also throwing in some rock music or other praise and worship music which no traditional church will permit, as it is distracting and prevents prayerful contemplation, and you had a formula for success.

However I think people are starting to realize that these megachurches are shiny facades, and that traditional churches are where the truth is to be found; consider in Seattle the collapse of Mark Driscoll’s gigantic Mars Hill Church, which had multiple “campuses” on which his sermons were projected on large screens, since apparently he felt threatened by the idea of different clergy preach as would occur in a normal church with multiple parishes in a diocese, with the bishop visiting each of them when not serving at the cathedral church. Mars Hill was less of a church and more of a cult of personality. The persecuted Antiochian Orthodox Church, most of whose parishes in the “Old Country” are located in Syria, with a small minority in Lebanon and Iraq, which suffered heavy persecution from ISIS, Al Qaeda and other Islamist groups in the past decade in Syria and Iraq, is growing, both among American and British converts and also ethnic members from the Levant, despite its Metropolitan in America being replaced a few years ago due to a personal scandal involving an affair which he sought to conceal, but a similar scandal in the case of Mars Hill caused it to collapse.

*Their error being to say Jesus Christ had a divine soul but a human body, which is erroneous as this teaching results in His human and divine natures being intermingled and confused, and this is contrary to the Scriptural truth stressed by the Nicene Creed that in His incarnation, Jesus Christ became fully God and fully man, retaining both His pre-existent divinity and assumed humanity without change, confusion, separation or division

 

[BobRyan]

There seems to be in Christianity a curiosity or fascination with end times prophesy.

IN Rev 13 and in 2 Thess 2 we are told emphatically that in the end times a massive deception is coming that takes in the entire world by storm.

=============================
23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

================================

In Matt 24 Jesus said that the deception would be so extremely convincing as it faked the 2nd coming of Christ that NO one would able to avoid it - and even the elect would find it difficult. In that chapter Jesus said it would be like the Flood where all on planet Earth except EIGHT were duped!!

- WE have been told repeatedly that essentially everyone gets it wrong!

By contrast Jesus said in Matt 24 "I have told you in advance" when warning against the massive fake second coming that is going to happen. He says that those who heed His warning, His clues - need not be duped at the end.

This is amazing when you look at Noah's example because he is of the Children of Seth and it looks like they ALL "missed the boat" except for 8 of the good guys.

That would be like a teacher starting off a key class in the university by saying

"99.9% of you will fail. Not because you must, but because you will be duped into thinking this is an easy test and you can't possibly be in error"

That is the kind of language you see in the Bible about this topic.

====================

So then "hmmmm " why would anyone be interested in "being warned correctly" in "getting it right before the walls collapse in on them"??

================== Now here for the big red warning flag

EVERYONE (or nearly everyone) will give you a complex set of charts, stories, texts --- then at the end tell you "IF you don't happen to agree with my view - it won't matter all will be well with you no matter what".

Think about that!!

Did John the baptizer make such a claim?
Did Noah make such a claim?
Did Lot make such a claim to his own family?

The Bible says that in the end - almost everyone "is asleep" thinking it is all going to well.

And why not? Look at what they are offering

1. Premill pretrib -- does not matter if you figure that one out - just be saved.
2. Premill midtrib -- does not matter if you figure that one out - just be saved.
3 Premill postrib -- does not matter if you figure that one out - just be saved.

Same problem with Amill
same problem with post-mill in general

The end result is that folks decide it is best to ignore all of the teaching in the Bible warning about the details at the end so as not to be duped - just snooze on in "normal mode" as if you lived 1000 years ago and "no news is still no news"

in many modern megachurches, the preaching of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments are neglected while the pastor engages in what can only be described as uninformed eschatological speculation. For example, no early church father taught us that there would be a “Rapture”

 

[BobRyan]

Frequently we find in assemblies those that appear very Biblical and can show you prophesy all day, but their behavior does not line up with scripture. It is so plain that a child can see it, but we are told not to judge. They can keep sinning because they are under the blood. Many will talk prophecy, very few accept correction. Is that what Christianity is all about?

I fully agree that being a born-again Christian -- with a new-creation new-heart where one walks "as Jesus walked" 1 John 2:4-7 rather than simply puts on a good show is very important. So then not doubting your point on that at all.

But let's say you lived in Noah's day and you told your family "No matter what happens guys WE WILL be getting on that boat that Noah is building" ... But then one of your family members says "nahhhh , let's not and say we did -- because the other day I saw Noah get stinking drunk and I really don't want to get on a boat with him. Maybe he will steer us wrong or maybe when he gets off the boat he will get drunk again".

Since it is a life-or-death subject in that scenario would you accept a drowning death for you and your entire family just to avoid a kind of "Noah" that might one day get drunk somewhere near where you might live??

In real life floods and fires - do those that get rescued ask for a character reference from their rescuers before getting on board?

 

[The Liturgist]

By contrast Jesus said in Matt 24 "I have told you in advance" when warning against the massive fake second coming that is going to happen. He says that those who heed His warning, His clues - need not be duped at the end.

We have no way of knowing when the end times are coming, and we must focus on our own individual salvation, for it is probable that we will die long before the return of Christ.

Attempts at predicting or even estimating the approximate time of His return have, as He warned, been spectacularly unsuccessful, as any of the Millerites could have told you in the wake of the Great Disappointment.

 

[The Liturgist]

The end result is that folks decide it is best to ignore all of the teaching in the Bible warning about the details at the end so as not to be duped - just snooze on in "normal mode" as if you lived 1000 years ago and "no news is still no news"

That is not the case. The process for repenting is what is taught in Scripture either way and we must repent, because our end is coming; we are in our own personal end times, even if the world as a whole might not be. This is because all of us have at most a century and spare change on this planet, but we commit sins it would take a thousand years to make right, so we have to focus on seeking God’s forgiveness and faithfully performing works of mercy to help other humans, so we can make ourselves an icon of the Holy Trinity in terms of our loving relationship with others.

 

[BobRyan]

Is that what Christianity is all about?
I don’t think so. I believe that prophecy and end times obsession are a distraction that keeps us from concentrating on what Jesus really wants us to do.

In 1 Thess 5 Jesus warns that all humans are pretty much asleep when it comes to the times and signs of the times and in for a rude awakening.

1 Thess 5:

Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let’s be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,​

Matt 24:

37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.​

Is Christ a mere alarmist in Matt 24? Exaggerating maybe?
How about Paul in 1 Thess 5 - an alarmist?

How about John in Rev 13 -- would you class him as "easily excitable"??

Rev 13

12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name​

======================

Christ said to compare this to the utter world wide failure at the flood.
Christ said to compare it to the utter failure of all in Sodom and Gomorrah when their day of destruction came.

Should we just shrug it off as alarmism??

 

[BobRyan]

That is not the case. The process for repenting is what is taught in Scripture either way and we must repent, because our end is coming;

WE all agree with that.

But there is a result that is of the form "repent and then ignore all the details Jesus gives , all the warnings He provides so that the saints survive the ordeal that He says is coming". As IF - that is a far sighted strategy. It looks pretty shaky to me.

And some suppose "Well I did repent and so now I think it would be fine to ignore all those other things that Jesus said" - which is very dangerous.

 

[BobRyan]

We have no way of knowing when the end times are coming

Jesus said that is not true.

Matt 24:
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

The Bible has terms like "The time of the end" In Dan 8:17 -- associated with a very specific timeline of 2300 years

In Rev 14:7 The Bible foretells a message of the form "The hour of His judgment HAS come" - meaning that the predicted hour has come... predicted in a Bible timeline.

IN Mark 1:14-15 Jesus' own ministry on Earth starts with the message "The time is fulfilled" referring to 69 weeks (483 years in day-for-year prophecy) of the 490 year timeline in Dan 9. Informing us at his first coming that the predicted timeline pointed to his ministry start.

 

[BobRyan]

Meanwhile the news every day tells us that earth is at the brink.

Look at the "Dooms Day clock" project where Nobel winning scientists have some pretty dire warning for just how close to the apocalyptic "edge' the Earth actually is nowdays with nuclear war on the docket.

Look at all the wild crazy things coming out of the department of defense relative to UAPs / UFOs / spaceships / non-terrestrials etc. We were not getting any of that sort of crazy news from the DOD 20 years ago.

Look at the pandemic cycle and predictions for the next 20 years in that regard.

Look at the string of natural disasters just this year alone. And the trend over the past 20 years

Look at the unhinged stated of society where people can now get offended if you claim you know what a woman is

Look at the trends in education leading students away from a free society , and more towards "we will tell you what to think"

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus said that is not true.

Matt 24:
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

The Bible has terms like "The time of the end" In Dan 8:17 -- associated with a very specific timeline of 2300 years

In Rev 14:7 The Bible foretells a message of the form "The hour of His judgment HAS come" - meaning that the predicted hour has come... predicted in a Bible timeline.

IN Mark 1:14-15 Jesus' own ministry on Earth starts with the message "The time is fulfilled" referring to 69 weeks (483 years in day-for-year prophecy) of the 490 year timeline in Dan 9. Informing us at his first coming that the predicted timeline pointed to his ministry start.

Well, firstly, all of the events God warned us of in Matthew 24 have already happened with the possible exception of the Abomination of the Desolation, but even that is generally regarded as the destructioin of the Second Temple by Nero, which was preceded by the installation of a statue of Jupiter in the forecourt of the Temple. Indeed, many atheist scholars and heretics date all of the Gospels that refer to the destruction of the Temple and related events, including Matthew, to after 70 AD, since the evidence that he is speaking of that event and the beginning of the persecution of Christians is overwhelming, but I would say that is not the case.

Rather, I think it is the case that the lack of any obvious warning signs which cannot be linked to existing events reinforces what Christ said: that no man can no the hour, only the Father in Heaven (which by the way means that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit almost certainly know the hour owing to the coequality and consubstantiality of God the Holy Trinity, in that it seems we would have to resort to actual tritheism or Arianism in order to say that God the Father knows something but God the Son and God the Holy Spirit does not, for we believe in one God in three persons, with one divine will, Jesus Christ also having a human will owing to his complete humanity, which is in hypostatic union with His divinity).

But the fact that we cannot know when the parousia occurs changes nothing. It could happen tonight, tommorrow night or in a hundred trillion years (I would regard any date more than ten trillion years past this point unlikely due to the end of the Stelliferous Era of the Universe, since it seems unlikely that even an advanced human civilization could survive for any significant length of time without any naturally occurring suns to sustain our life, and there is also the issue of the supermassive black holes that will consume all matter after a certain point before emitting it as energy and themselves coming to an end as a result of Hawking Radiation, and even if one could survive that violent period, the heat death of the universe would follow, a period in which nothing happens except for the random movement of near-equidistant photons.

On the other hand, our death will probably occur, given the average age of members on this forum, for the majority of us, sometime in the next sixty years, eighty at the most (for instance, I would be 128 years old if I lived another eighty years, which seems spectacularly unlikely).

Either way, it does not matter what comes first, the Second Coming or our own demise, for what we must do is the same, and that is to repent and beg the forigiveness of God, while also forgiving others, and do as much good as possible, because we all face judgement by Christ Pantocrator, and we do not have a chance without a living faith, which includes good works*, namely as much as is possible the following: praying (the objective being to learn to pray without ceasing, which is possible) fasting, almsgiving and other forms of charitable work, for example, if one is a doctor, providing medical services without charge to people who need them, and the equivalent for other skills, for example, working in caring for the poor via homeless shelters, visiting the imprisoned, helping to bury the dead, and so on, then, partaking of the life-giving sacraments, and encouraging others to do likewise (no Christian should refuse baptism or Holy Communion) and repenting of our sins and working to control the passions, which is accomplished to a large extent through fasting, prayer, almsgiving and other works of mercy, repenting of our sins and partaking of the Holy Sacraments.

So there is quite a lot Christians should be doing, and this must be done in anticipation of either our immediate death or the immediate arrival of Jesus Christ, because either way, we are in deep trouble when that happens. I would not want to be in a strip club engaged in a decadent party or otherwise be living a life of self-indulgent pleasure when the end arrives.

* I am not preaching works righteousness; rather any competent Protestant member knows that someone who has faith but is not motivated by that faith, or rather I should say by the grace of God the Holy Spirit who enables that faith, to do good works, does not have a living faith, as per the Epistle of James.

 

[The Liturgist]

Meanwhile the news every day tells us that earth is at the brink.

Look at the "Dooms Day clock" project where Nobel winning scientists have some pretty dire warning for just how close to the apocalyptic "edge' the Earth actually is nowdays with nuclear war on the docket.

Look at all the wild crazy things coming out of the department of defense relative to UAPs / UFOs / spaceships / non-terrestrials etc. We were not getting any of that sort of crazy news from the DOD 20 years ago.

Look at the pandemic cycle and predictions for the next 20 years in that regard.

Look at the string of natural disasters just this year alone. And the trend over the past 20 years

Look at the unhinged stated of society where people can now get offended if you claim you know what a woman is

Look at the trends in education leading students away from a free society , and more towards "we will tell you what to think"

I am not denying that Christ could come tomorrow, but I would also say that if we were having this conversation in the third century, as the Roman Empire, which amounted to civilization, was being stressed to the breaking point by natural disasters, pandemics, invasions of barbarians and so on and the Christians were blamed for it directly and being rounded up and put to death in large numbers, things would look just as bleak. Yet in the fourth century there was a radical improvement. All we know is that it will happen when we are not expecting it and are least prepared for it.

The same is largely true for our own mortality.

What we must do in preparation for the Second Coming is the same as what we must do in preparation for our death, thus, sensationalist pastors who simply preach about all of the various signs indicating the nearness of the Parousia are literally wasting their entire congregation’s time in such a way that reduces their chance of salvation. What these pastors should be preaching is the importance of having a living faith through fasting, prayer, repentence, almsgiving, charity, partaking of the life-giving sacraments, repenting, conquering the passions, and spreading the Gospel (in a constructive way that will actually yield positive results in terms of encouraging people to come to Church, as opposed to simply annoying them, so any form of evangelizing that resembles how the Mormons or J/Ws is useless).

 

[The Liturgist]

WE all agree with that.

But there is a result that is of the form "repent and then ignore all the details Jesus gives , all the warnings He provides so that the saints survive the ordeal that He says is coming". As IF - that is a far sighted strategy. It looks pretty shaky to me.

And some suppose "Well I did repent and so now I think it would be fine to ignore all those other things that Jesus said" - which is very dangerous.

The things which we must do to ensure our salvation are the same things we must do in preparation for the end times. Furthermore, they are irrelevant to this thread. What you and the Adventists liking your posts are ignoring is that the OP is not complaining about preparing for the Parousia, but rather the tendency of Christians to be distracted from the repentence they should be engaged in through speculative and fictionalized accounts of the Eschaton, and to further distract themselves by iterating through the events of the world that could be interpreted as indicating that the end is coming soon, which is pointless, because the end could come in a trillionth of a seconds or a trillion trillion seconds, which is a dashed long time from now, since we cannot know with any certainty when it will happen, only that it will, but we do know with certainty that we will die soon, and when the end times occur we are effectively as good as dead, since either way we will be facing the dread judgement seat of Christ, and that is what we must prepare for.

I should think this would be particularly evident to Adventists given that in your innovative eschatology there is no intermediate state of Heaven or Hell before the Last Judgement, but rather anyone who dies, the next thing they know, will have awakened to face the dread judgement seat of Christ. This is of course inaccurate for reasons not topical to this thread, but in any case, if you suggest that what we must do to prepare for our own death (or, a point in our life where it becomes exceedingly difficult for us to repent and develop a true living faith and join the Church, for example, if we become mentally disabled as a result of a stroke, or traumatic brain injury, or Alzheimers or other forms of dementia one might broadly attribute to senility) is different from what we must do to prepare for the parousia, you are entirely mistaken, because both events come like a thief in the night.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I think this is a good discussion. Bob, you are correct that most will be asleep and not know what is happening, but speculation about the details is a distraction, and it prevents us from doing what God really wants us to do.
Speculating on the end times is like watching a football game. It is a total distraction to what is really going on in the world. It has some entertainment value, but in the end it does nothing to improve the lives of the spectators.
Speculating on end times is like watching the Super Bowl. You cheer and are happy when your team wins, but do you get any benefit from watching? No! The participants gain the prize.
Same with Christianity. Even Satan knows who wins, but does that knowledge benefit him? It can’t because he has rejected the only Son of God. The same will happen to alleged believers that sit back and do nothing because they know who wins. It is only the participants that gain the prize. Jesus even says He is coming in an hour when you think not. Blessed are those He finds doing His work when He comes. Their minds were dull to the time of His coming, but their hearts were alive with the beauty of His commands. Does the Bible ever say that Jesus chastises those that did not know when He was coming? No. He chastised those that fail to allow God to work in our lives. It is not the spectators but the participants that gain the prize.
What does the Bible say? If I have faith to move mountains and can discern all mysteries, yet lack Charity, I am nothing. Those are asleep that do not follow His command to love their enemies.
We are not saved by works, but those that will be saved will do the work of God now until the day they die. Why? Because God promised they would. Those that refuse to repent, mortify the deeds of the flesh and detach their hearts from the pleasures of this world because they say they are not saved by works are fooling themselves
Jesus calls us to follow Him in His love for enemies, not pay them lip service. Love is not a fuzzy feeling, it is a choice that results in action.
Not by my own power because it is no longer I that liveth but Christ liveth in me
Everyone has enemies. What can you do to love them? Don’t tell me that you love them and do nothing. Any woman that has to hear her husband say that he loves her all the while he ignores her knows that he is not telling her the truth. Why should it be different for you? Think about how you can love your enemies. If you can’t figure it out, then pray and ask God. He has told us that if we lack anything. If we come to Him in prayer, He will do it for us. He also said to pray for this that persecute you, not as lip service because that is not true prayer if you don’t mean it, but it is a way of really asking God what you can do.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

To calculate dates is nonsense. The Lord clearly told us not to do so. Our main priority is to love God and that means to obey His commandments.
Whoever does the will of God does not need to worry which day Christ returns.

However we should watch the times.
Matthew 24 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The fig tree is Israel and ethnic Israel is back in their land. So we know that summer is nigh and so is Lord's second coming. Why is this important? Because the Lord said in Matthew 23 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Lord Jesus will not return to Earth until Israel (at least the elect) say 'blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'.

I am premil and believe in pre-trib rapture. But I know many born again Christians don't. If the rapture is true, will Christians miss it because they don't believe in it. No. Then why do I spread it? Because all the false christians will be left behind. Ofc my interpretetion of the eschatology can be wrong.

In regards to millenium, one may ask, what does it matter, we will find out anyway. Well because every word of God matters. So I will argue the premil view, but yes I am guilty of at times being too agressive and frustrated with people who don't share this view and I must remind myself of God's grace and that the gospel is far more important.

 

[The Liturgist]

The fig tree is Israel

We don’t know that.

I am premil and believe in pre-trib rapture. But I know many born again Christians don't.

That is because no one taught that doctrine before John Nelson Darby in the 19th century.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

There seems to be in Christianity a curiosity or fascination with end times prophesy. Those that more forcefully proclaim their prophecies are seen as more biblically knowledgeable and receive the attention of many. Some stir up fear in our hearts and others fascination and others a sense that we are really getting to know the Bible. Is this what we should be doing with our walk with the Lord on Earth? Is this what He told us to do?


Jesus words are
Take no thought for tomorrow, for tomorrow will take care of itself, sufficient in the day is the evil thereof.
It is not for you to known the times or the seasons which the Father Has fixed by His own authority
In an hour you think not, the Son of Man cometh. (You are blessed of Jesus finds you doing what He told you to do, and not obsessing about when He comes)

Matthew 6:34, Acts 7:1, Matthew 24:44


Frequently we find in assemblies those that appear very Biblical and can show you prophesy all day, but their behavior does not line up with scripture. It is so plain that a child can see it, but we are told not to judge. They can keep sinning because they are under the blood. Many will talk prophecy, very few accept correction. Is that what Christianity is all about?
I don’t think so. I believe that prophecy and end times obsession are a distraction that keeps us from concentrating on what Jesus really wants us to do. So why don’t we do it? Well there are many reasons, but many are deceived by the teaching that we are not saved by our works, so we won’t do any, and then scoff or chastise those that try to do them.
That is a perfect distraction that keeps us from heaven. Tickle the mind with thoughts of great prophetic knowledge, and dull the senses to what we are doing because it is meaningless.
Is that true? Is that Biblical? Well it is true that we are not saved by our works, but those that are going to be saved will do good works, and they will keep doing them until they die or the Son of Man comes. It’s that simple. Don’t believe me? check out the Bible. Jesus calls all men everywhere to repent. He says to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him. Following Him takes action, it is a way of suffering, but it does not require much effort. Why? Because we have plenty of chances to follow Him in suffering if we just accept it.
Think of all the people that annoy you or cause you injustice. What did Jesus tell you to do about them? Ever hear of love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you? Why should we do that? Because Jesus told us to do it, and God sends your enemies to you to help you grow in virtue. Just follow His commands. The one that you hate the most is the one that you should be friends with and love the most. It hurts and it’s humiliating and hard, but every blow and every stripe, every insult and spittle our Lord received was unjust. Should we not follow Him and accept injustice in our lives willingly and lovingly? Our enemies are God’s call to us that this is what He wants you to do. Think about it.
Why are you so angry at others and complain about the hurts you feel? Jesus said to rejoice when you suffer
We would rather think ourselves biblical by studying prophecy, rather than accepting what God is calling us to do.
What do the goats say to God when they get to the judgement seat? Lord, we prophesied in your name, you taught in our streets and we did many wonderful works for you. What does He say? I never knew you. Why? Because you fails to respond when He knocked at the door of your heart. Your enemies are those knocks at the door of your heart. How do we know? Because God told us to love our enemies and He promised that you will not suffer anything above which you are able to endure.
Don’t know how to love your enemies? Then pray and ask God what you should do. Study why you hate someone and really think about why this is causing you so much pain. If you do that, God will show you, and if you respond, He will give you bigger things to do. Did He not say he that is faithful in small things will be given greater responsibility? It takes no effort to follow Jesus. Just look around at your enemies and you will be following the Gospel. Jesus tells us we are His servants and we are not greater than our master. He was beaten to death and hung on a cross. Why should we expect a soft life?
So many people say use me Jesus. Well here is your chance. Remember your obedience to God is not dependent on what your enemy does. Some may soften and be converted, others will harden and become more cruel. You are obedient when you suffer willingly, but you need not suffer alone. Call out to God in prayer and ask Him what to do about the situation that you are in so that you may keep following Him. Be faithful unto death and He will give you a crown of life. He does not say love your enemies and I’ll make you a millionaire in this life. You need listen to what God is calling you to do by looking at your enemies, studying God’s law and acting accordingly. If you can’t take all the enemies you have, start with one and you will learn

What does Augustine say that true Pastors are like? They don’t claim to have all knowledge and distract people with prophesy about the end times. Want to know the dangers of distraction? Read the story of Eastern Airlines flight 401.

Here is Augustine

St Augustine's sermon On Pastors


I shall feed my sheep on good pasture


I shall gather them together from foreign nations and bring them back to their own land. I shall pasture them on the mountains of Israel… As the mountains of Israel, he has set up the authors of the holy Scriptures. Feed on these and you will feed in safety. Whatever you hear from them will do you good; whatever you hear from elsewhere, spit it out. Listen to the voice of your shepherd lest you lose your way and wander into the mist. Gather together on the mountains of holy Scripture. There you will find the delight of your heart: nothing poisonous, nothing strange – the richest of pastures. Simply come in good health, and feed in good health on the mountains of Israel.


…In the ravines and in every inhabited place in the land. From these mountains of Scripture flow the streams of the gospel preaching, whose sound has gone forth into all the earth so that every inhabited place of the earth has become a rich and fertile pasture for the sheep.


I shall feed them in good pasturage; the high mountains of Israel will be their grazing ground. There will they rest. That is, where they will say, “It is good here,” where they will say, “It is true, it is clear, we are not deceived.” They will take their rest in the glory of God as in their own shelters. They will sleep and take their rest in the midst of delight.


They will browse in rich pastures on the mountains of Israel. I have already spoken of the mountains of Israel, the good mountains, the mountains to which we lift up our eyes so that help will come to us from them. But remember, our help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. So to prevent us putting our hope in the mountains, as soon as he had said I shall pasture them on the mountains of Israel he added at once I shall feed my sheep. Yes, lift your eyes up to the mountains from which your help will come; but wait for him to say I shall feed. For your help is from the Lord, who made heaven and earth.


And finally he says I shall feed them with judgement. Note that it is he alone who feeds them with judgement. For what man can judge another man? Wherever you look, you see rash judgements. Someone we have despaired of suddenly turns round and becomes the best of people. Someone of whom we have had high expectations suddenly fails and sinks into uselessness. There is no certainty in our foreboding, there is no certainty in our love.


Take any man. What is he today? He hardly knows himself. He has some slight idea, perhaps, of what he is today, but as for tomorrow – nothing. So the Lord feeds us all with judgement, distributing what is appropriate to each of us: this to one person, that to others, to each what they ought to have, one thing to one and another to another. For he knows what he is doing. He feeds us with judgement, us whom he redeemed after he had himself been judged. So he feeds us all with judgement.

Many follow Dispensational theology, a fairly new branch of eschatology introduced in the 19th century. If you follow its history and influence you can trace why it is an obsession. You can start with the famous book " The late great planet earth" by Hal Lindsey. This book sensationalized this view.
Blessings.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Many follow Dispensational theology, a fairly new branch of eschatology introduced in the 19th century. If you follow its history and influence you can trace why it is an obsession. You can start with the famous book " The late great planet earth" by Hal Lindsey. This book sensationalized this view.
Blessings.

Thank you for the information. I have read Hal Linsey and used to buy into that view. I know the history. I’m asked the question to get people to examine its value Vs doing what Gos actually commands us to do.
It is similar to death. We all know that we are going to die, and we know the signs that death is approaching. We can obsess all day to speculate how much time we have left and the exact moment of our demise, or we can get on with the business of living and do what God commands before it is too late and we have no life left.
Like I said and what I read I the Bible, God calls us to sacrifice and to service, not to speculate on the hour of our demise. As I said, we all have enemies. It would do us more good to contemplate why they are enemies and how God calls us to love them rather than to speculate the moment we will no longer have the opportunity.
I remember believing that rapture talk and annoying everyone attempting to get them to believe it. It was a waste of time. The rapture was not taught until the 19th century. That was the century that began the speculation of the worlds demise. What has it done? Did it usher in a new phase of Christianity or did it just injure and divide the body of Christ? Are we loving our enemies more, or do we just throw up our hands and ignore them more because they won’t listen to our crackpot theories about the end of the world?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

We don’t know that.

Jeremiah 24 3 And the Lord said to me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?” I said, “Figs, the good figs very good, and the bad figs very bad, so bad that they cannot be eaten.” Jeremiah 24.5-8 shows that God is referring to those Jews who are whole-hearted followers of God (the good figs), and to those rebellious Jews who had rejected God (the bad figs).

The "Fig-tree" is a fit emblem of Israel. Its peculiarity is that the blossoms of the fruit appear before the leaves. Naturally, therefore, we should look for fruit on a tree in full leaf. This accounts for why Jesus cursed the Fig-tree that had on it nothing but leaves. Matt. 21:18-20. The presence of the leaves led Him to expect fruit, and when He found none He cursed the tree for its fruitlessness. Mark gives us another version of the incident. Mark 11:12-14. He says that Jesus found nothing but leaves, "for the time of figs was NOT YET."

In the Parable of the "Barren Fig-tree" (Luke 13:6-9) we have another picture of Israel. The "Fig-tree" is the Jewish nation. The "Fig-tree" was planted in a "Vineyard," which we have seen stands for the land of Palestine. The owner of the Vineyard and of the Fig-tree was God. He came in the person of His Son Jesus, and for three years of Jesus' ministry He had sought for fruit from the Jewish nation and found none. He therefore decided to cut down the tree, that is, remove the nation from the Vineyard.

This is why and many believe fig tree represent Israel. I'm not here to argue for or against it, I am just simply stating why I believe this to be the case.

That is because no one taught that doctrine before John Nelson Darby in the 19th century.

Yes I heard this argument many times. I am not here to argue for or against it, I'm just pointing out that there are born again Christians who share this view and those who do not, and those who believe in spiritual 1000 years and those who believe in physical 1000 years. Why this is the case, I do not know. I was also saying that if the pre-trib rapture is true, then those who believe it should write about it. Again I'm not here to argue about the rapture, this is not the place for it, just saying that there are some who believe it.