• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why the NIV cannot be the word of God, even thought it contains portions of God's word.

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It was Smith, the Unitarian, who was on that committee that first changed the reading. I can't help but think of the pleasure it would have afforded him to know that the NIV would go on to reinforce what he saw as a victory over the Deity of Christ.


He saw even completely illogical arguments as a victory over the Deity of Christ. Some of his arguments strained incredulity at best.

However, you again dodged the question. Smith was not on the KJV translation committee. Yet they rendered the same word authority and power many times. Were they diminishing Jesus by doing so?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Don't know why you are referencing the KJB when the reading of 'power' is rendered in all English translations, and accepted by the Church, as 'power'.

Because the KJV rendered the same underlying word as "power" and "authority" many times, and you just pointed to the NIV doing the same.

Were they all anti-Trinitarian? The word ἐξουσία primarily means authority, jurisdiction, influence, etc.

For just pure "power" there is a different word, δύναμις, where we get our word "dynamo" from.

You can see an example below where both are used in the same verse, here in the KJV:


Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power (δύναμιν) and authority (ἐξουσίαν) over all devils, and to cure diseases.


Smith and Hort changed it to the lesser value as though Jesus had no power of his own. NIV was only following the footsteps of them. Certainly you don't deny that Smith had an agenda?


Of course Smith had an agenda. But he also claimed the others had a TRINITARIAN agenda which he was constantly battling. And he frankly admitted times when he made no effort to change a plainly Trinitarian reading because there was no textual warrant. And the times he tried to change them were when he thought he did have a textual warrant.

Now I just quoted that Smith thought "authority" meant a given power, whereas power meant innate.

Neither he, nor you, nor anyone else has to argue over such a silly thing. First because the KJV, the NIV, etc. all have translated the word both ways. But more importantly because Jesus said Himself He was GIVEN the power.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

There is no point in arguing about whether "authority" means delegated power, and "power" means innate power when He says point blank the power was given to Him right in the text.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There you go. They took only the Ayrian readings with which to change the Bible. Didn't matter how old they were.

But that is just the point. The other reading was better supported by older texts.

You cite Alexandrinus, a 5th Century manuscript.

They cite
-P66, around 200 AD!!
-Siniaticus, 4th century (though you have called it a forgery)
-Vaticanus, 4th century
-Bezae, 5th century
-Washingtonianus, 5th century

I am sorry, but you cannot complain about bias, that they did not take into account an old text, when the evidence for ancient Greek manuscript support is a slam dunk on this one.

Now I don' think merely looking at extant manuscripts is the only consideration either. But you cannot appeal to one old text and say it was Arian bias.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Daniel saw a vision of Jesus. Jesus is both man through his mother and God through his Father. What does this prove?


When son of man is used in the Gospels it refers to the humanity of Jesus, and when the 'Son of God' is used it refers to his Deity. So when we look at John 9:35 are we looking at his humanity, or his Deity? There was no reason for Jesus to ask if he believed in his humanity, that would be silly. Jesus was asking if he believed in his Deity.

It proves that Jesus was claiming to be the one who would be ushered into God's presence, at a scene of judgment, to inherit all things, to have all nations serve Him in an eternal kingdom. Hardly small potatoes.

And note, in the immediate context He speaks of a role of judgment:

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Also, note this confrontation. It shows that they associated the "Son of God" and the "Messiah", and Jesus responds with an allusion to the Son of Man scene in Daniel.

Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Compare:

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus did associate "Messiah", "Son of God" and the title "Son of Man".


 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe it is quite interesting that the only verse that clearly spelled out the Trinity,

I think you mean the reading least supported in the entire NT by Greek manuscripts.

That was their issue with it. Now did you not read Smith talking about their bias TOWARD the Trinity? Did you not even quote the letter where there was concern that they might not remove this verse even then because of Trinitarian and credal leanings, despite what they thought was a clear-cut manuscript case?

They removed it because they thought it as a later addition. If you want to support the reading, then do that. I think there are arguments you could present. Simply saying they took it out due to anti-Trinitarian bias is not true. Smith certainly wanted it out. There is no evidence the rest of them wanted it out, other than for reasons of textual evidence.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
and the only verse where Jesus clearly proclaims to be the Son of God have been removed in the revision of 1881, as well as those translations that chose to follow that revision. Clearly one man on that translation committee was not ashamed to say what he thought they accomplished, and that was to remove what they could that pointed to the worship of Jesus.


It is not the only verse. He acknowledges the title, and did so while claiming to be the Son of Man. And they thought it was blasphemy:

63 But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
thankfulttt,

In post 280 I gave you the challenge to explain why the NIV, which you claimed is biased against Christ's Divinity, would render 2 Peter 1:1 and Titus 2:13 in a way that strongly speaks to Jesus' Divinity, going further than the KJV on this point.

Instead you introduced numerous other examples of what you thought were bias in post 281, to distract from the issue.


This latest round of allegations of bias I have answered point by point. But they only came up because you refused to answer the question.

So here is the question again:

If the goal of the NIV committee was to remove the Deity of Christ, why would they render these two verses very intentionally to show the Deity of Christ?

I am still waiting for why you think this biased group would do that.


NIV
13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

NIV
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
thankfulttt,

Now let's review where we are at after the latest exchange, and clarify your position:

- You didn't ever explain why the KJV would render ἐξουσία as "authority" a number of times, if it diminished Christ's Deity. Were they also anti-Trinitarian? So, do you relinquish the charge that rendering the word "authority" diminishes Jesus? Or do you claim the KJV translators were diminishing Jesus?

- You didn't respond to the clear evidence from the root word that teacher is a better translation than "master" or "head-master" when rendering διδασκαλε.
In fact you said that Jesus is the head-teacher! But the Greek text does not say "head master" or "head teacher". We cannot just translate whatever we THINK about Jesus into the Greek text. So do you relinquish the charge that the NIV mistranslated the word as "teacher", in light of the fact that this is the actual meaning?

- You never clarified how you have four divine beings in Titus 2:13.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

You take "God" to mean the entire Trinity, then did not explain why it would set Jesus Christ next to the Trinity. Do you hold to the view that the "Son" descended on the human Jesus at His baptism? Do you distinguish Jesus from the Trinity that He needs to be mentioned twice? And of course, this is all in an attempt to argue AGAINST a Trinitarian reading in the NIV, which you claimed was trying to destroy Trinitarian readings. You need to clarify this.

-While lamenting the 1984 confusing reading in Phil. 2, you did not make any acknowledgment of their new revision which is perhaps stronger in upholding Jesus' Divinity than the KJV on the point, or at least equal to it. Do you acknowledge the new reading is quite strong on the Divinity of Christ?

- You have argued that in Matthew 28 "authority" takes away from Christ because it is derived, rather than power, which would not be derived, following Smith. However, you have not acknowledged that Jesus makes it very plain He was GIVEN the "authority/power", so it is derived either way. Do you acknowledge that Jesus says it was given to Him?

Some of the later points in my recent posts you have not had a chance to review, so I will let you respond to them as they are.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Now, to clarify my position again, there are legitimate reasons to not care for the NIV. The NIV is not my favorite Bible. I, like Thankfulttt do not think the critical text is the best. However, I don't think it is fair to accuse the NIV translators of anti-Trinitarian bias simply because they thought that text was the best. I favor a version that goes by the TR or Byzantine text.

Even among Bibles based on the critical text this link with comparison charts shows why I think the NIV is a poor choice. It is not very word for word.

http://www.apbrown2.net/web/TranslationComparisonChart.htm

Having said that I started out reading the KJV Bible and was blessed by it at an early age. In college I read the NT through in the NIV and was blessed by that.

I don't think it the best for study, but you can still find the most important elements in an NIV.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,698
6,115
Visit site
✟1,054,271.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
They changed "God manifested in the flesh" to "he appeared in a body"

One other point on this, besides that the issue is a different in the manuscripts. I came across this in the following article.

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/38/38-4/38-4-pp519-530_JETS.pdf

Either reading would support the notion of the pre-existence of Jesus. One does not normally speak of people in the generic appearing in the flesh. They already are in the flesh. That this pre-existent entity spoken of appeared in the flesh is making note of something unusual.
 
Upvote 0