Why the difference?

[KarateCowboy]

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0107a.html

I was reading this article and it quoted a couple of sources and statistics that I have heard before but only discussed a little.

The first statistic caught my eye and came from the publication Homosexualities, and said (quoted from the article)

Homosexualities, an official publication of The Institute for Sex Research founded by Alfred Kinsey, Alan Bell, and Martin Weinberg, reported that only ten percent of male homosexuals could be termed as "relatively monogamous" or "relatively less promiscuous." Additional findings showed that 60 percent of male homosexuals had more than 250 lifetime sexual partners, and 28 percent of male homosexuals had more than 1,000 lifetime sexual partners. Another startling fact is that 79 percent admitted that more than half of their sexual partners were strangers.

The second statistic is similar to a statistic I have heard before but not of this publication :

In contrast with this, "the average heterosexual male has -- throughout his life -- from five to nine sex partners."

I believe that, by and large, the homosexual lifestyle is fundamentally flawed. Like a piano knocked out of tune: You can play a discernable song on it, but only barely, and it won't sound like the right tune. I believe it is to the detrement and harm of those who practice it.

So I guess my question to the apologists is: why the difference? Why is it that the average heterosexual male is found to have five to nine partners in his life, but almost two-thirds of male homosexuals (60%) have had more than 250? If the argument that homosexuality is just like heterosexuality with only superficial differences is toilet paper then this seems like a lot of water. So I'm just wondering what the apologist rebuttal to this is? Is this 'hard-wired'; what is the cause of this huge difference in practice?

 

[vitodabona]

Women. If they behaved with regards to sexuality like men, I would say the numbers on the heterosexual side would jump significantly.


Study Suggests Difference Between Female And Male Sexuality
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm

Still looking for a study of lesbian sexuallity like the one in the OP. I am interested if the lesbian study has numbers more in line with the heterosexual male figures.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Women. If they behaved with regards to sexuality like men, I would say the numbers on the heterosexual side would jump significantly.


Study Suggests Difference Between Female And Male Sexuality
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm

Still looking for a study of lesbian sexuallity like the one in the OP. I am interested if the lesbian study has numbers more in line with the heterosexual male figures.

I don't understand what your point is. Both the statistics in the OP deal only with men.

 

[GhostDad]

I don't understand what your point is. Both the statistics in the OP deal only with men.

What I think he's saying is taht men are horny. And if women were as horny and willing to have sex as straight men, then we may see comparable figures for heterosexuals.

 

[GhostDad]

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0107a.html

I was reading this article and it quoted a couple of sources and statistics that I have heard before but only discussed a little.

The first statistic caught my eye and came from the publication Homosexualities, and said (quoted from the article)



The second statistic is similar to a statistic I have heard before but not of this publication :


I believe that, by and large, the homosexual lifestyle is fundamentally flawed. Like a piano knocked out of tune: You can play a discernable song on it, but only barely, and it won't sound like the right tune. I believe it is to the detrement and harm of those who practice it.

So I guess my question to the apologists is: why the difference? Why is it that the average heterosexual male is found to have five to nine partners in his life, but almost two-thirds of male homosexuals (60%) have had more than 250? If the argument that homosexuality is just like heterosexuality with only superficial differences is toilet paper then this seems like a lot of water. So I'm just wondering what the apologist rebuttal to this is? Is this 'hard-wired'; what is the cause of this huge difference in practice?

I'm too lazy to look up the rebuttals to those numbers, but 250-1000 partners is seriously astronomical.

 

[Belk]

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0107a.html

I was reading this article and it quoted a couple of sources and statistics that I have heard before but only discussed a little.

The first statistic caught my eye and came from the publication Homosexualities, and said (quoted from the article)



The second statistic is similar to a statistic I have heard before but not of this publication :


I believe that, by and large, the homosexual lifestyle is fundamentally flawed. Like a piano knocked out of tune: You can play a discernable song on it, but only barely, and it won't sound like the right tune. I believe it is to the detrement and harm of those who practice it.

So I guess my question to the apologists is: why the difference? Why is it that the average heterosexual male is found to have five to nine partners in his life, but almost two-thirds of male homosexuals (60%) have had more than 250? If the argument that homosexuality is just like heterosexuality with only superficial differences is toilet paper then this seems like a lot of water. So I'm just wondering what the apologist rebuttal to this is? Is this 'hard-wired'; what is the cause of this huge difference in practice?

From
http://volokh.com/2003_05_11_volokh_archive.html

The Bell & Weinberg book appears to be a detailed and likely useful work; I'm not trying to knock it. But it's based on a study limited to the San Francisco Bay Area in 1970. What's more, the study was done by research assistants trying to recruit subjects through various means -- "such as public advertising, bars, personal contacts, gay baths, organizations, mailing lists, and public places" -- that don't seem likely to produce a random sample even of the gays in the San Francisco Bay Area in 1970. On top of that, this was a self-selected study, which measured only those who volunteered -- doubtless a small, and likely unrepresentative, fraction of those who heard about the study. To its credit, the book stressed (p. 22), that

Not a great rebutal, yet it might put things in perspective.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I'm too lazy to look up the rebuttals to those numbers, but 250-1000 partners is seriously astronomical.

Well yeah. That's my point.

People say that homosexual behavior is normal, but they're all doing this stuff, so how can it be normal?

 

[ebia]

250-1000 partners seems be (literally) unbelievable.

If the above comments about the study are accurate, then it seems seriously flawed.

But of course one would expect some difference when society actively encourages permanent, monogomous, faithful hetrosexual relationships and actively discourages permanent, monogomous, faithful homosexual ones.

 

[KarateCowboy]

250-1000 partners seems be (literally) unbelievable.

You mean you don't want to believe it.

If the above comments about the study are accurate, then it seems seriously flawed.

How so?

But of course one would expect some difference when society actively encourages permanent, monogomous, faithful hetrosexual relationships and actively discourages permanent, monogomous, faithful homosexual ones.

So 'society' causes 60% to commit sodomy with 250+ guys?
If it does it suggests that same-sex attraction is a symptom of some greater mental instability, or it could be a disorder itself.

Those hypotheses aside, why is it that the SSA affirmative side always blames a person's problems on someone else? It's seems very reactive, rather than proactive. It is true that things influence us a bit. But in this case don't you think it's better to stop and say "why do people with same-sex attractions choose such behavior" rather blaming the boogey-man of 'society'?

 

[GhostDad]

Well yeah. That's my point.

People say that homosexual behavior is normal,

What do you think they mean by "normal" and what do you mean by "normal"?

but they're all doing this stuff, so how can it be normal?

I don't believe that gays engage in as much sex as your link claims (though I do expect it to be more than your average person). In fact, I remember that study being debunked. Plus, KarateCowboy, it's from a "Christian Research" org ... I mean c'mon.

 

[David Gould]

As people have said, men are different than women when it comes to sex. Women seek emotional satisfaction with sex; men just want the sex. (generalisation here, by the way).

There are good evolutionary reasons why this is the case. The sex drive comes out of the desire for children. Women have to put in a vast amount of effort to bring a child to term. All a man has to do is have sex. Thus, a woman seeks a man who will support her in this endeavour, and will require him to prove his loyality in various ways prior to permitting him to have sex with her.

Men will just seek sex. If the women control access to sex, then men will be forced to jump through hoops to get it.

However, if men control access to sex - as in homosexual relationships - then those hoops will dissapear.

It is pretty obvious, really.

 

[KarateCowboy]

What do you think they mean by "normal" and what do you mean by "normal"?

I'm not the one claiming it's normal, so your guess is as good as mine.

I don't believe that gays engage in as much sex as your link claims (though I do expect it to be more than your average person). In fact, I remember that study being debunked.

Can you show me where?

Plus, KarateCowboy, it's from a "Christian Research" org ... I mean c'mon.

Oh yeah cause all Christians are liars! I forgot that we can't ever believe anything that Christians say!
Your blatant prejudice aside, it's a moot point, because as I specifically pointed out, the statistic comes from a publication of the Kinsey Institute, and all their references are cited.

 

[trunks2k]

You mean you don't want to believe it.

From my own personal experience, it's an unbelievable number, and I know some rather ****** gay boys (to say the least). It may be believable for a small group of gay men in the 70s, mainly those that frequented bath houses, but as a modern representation of gay men? No way.

 

[KarateCowboy]

As people have said, men are different than women when it comes to sex. Women seek emotional satisfaction with sex; men just want the sex. (generalisation here, by the way).

Yeah yeah. I'll agree to that.

There are good evolutionary reasons why this is the case. The sex drive comes out of the desire for children.

What, and men have a biological urge to have sex because it doesn't require as much equipment as baseball?

Women have to put in a vast amount of effort to bring a child to term. All a man has to do is have sex. Thus, a woman seeks a man who will support her in this endeavour, and will require him to prove his loyality in various ways prior to permitting him to have sex with her.

So how do you explain the millions of hook-ups and one night stands that occur between men and women nightly?

However, if men control access to sex - as in homosexual relationships - then those hoops will dissapear.

Riiiiiiiiiight. So all gay men are a four letter word that starts with s and rhymes with 'gut', and all straight men would be if it weren't for women . . .

 

[David Gould]

Yeah yeah. I'll agree to that.

What, and men have a biological urge to have sex because it doesn't require as much equipment as baseball?

Um, the whole goal of evolution is to propagate your genes. For the male of any species, the expenditure of time and energy required to do so is very small, and so it is easy to do - and thus it is pushed by our instincts.

For women, the expenditure of time and energy is very large. Thus, they are wired to behave differently.

So how do you explain the millions of hook-ups and one night stands that occur between men and women nightly?

1.) Because some women are indeed like men in terms of the way they deal with sex.
2.) Because women now can have sex and not risk having a child.
3.) Because men put in vast amounts of time and effort to convince women to act like men in a sexual sense.

With this last one, they have in general failed, as the differences between hetrosexual and homosexual behaviour indicates.

Riiiiiiiiiight. So all gay men are a four letter word that starts with s and rhymes with 'gut', and all straight men would be if it weren't for women . . .

Um, you were the one who put forward the statistics. The word you wish to use is a judgemental one. If it were not for the way women were, straight men would be having much more sex. This is a fact. Gay men have a lot of sex because of the way men are.


What is the problem you are having with this picture? Do you agree that men are the active parties when it comes to sex - men ask women for sex, and not the other way around?

 

[Adriac]

What is the problem you are having with this picture? Do you agree that men are the active parties when it comes to sex - men ask women for sex, and not the other way around?

By and large.

Let's be careful, now.

 

[David Gould]

By and large.

Let's be careful, now.

Yes - I mean in general.

 

[ebia]

You mean you don't want to believe it.

It seems impractically high for anything but a tiny number of people.

How so?

As described above.

So 'society' causes 60% to commit sodomy with 250+ guys?

Society (through marriage) heavily encourages publically committed monogomous hetrosexual relationships, yet heavily discourages the equivalent hetrosexual ones. That is bound to have an influence.

If it does it suggests that same-sex attraction is a symptom of some greater mental instability, or it could be a disorder itself.

It's not remotely approaching evidence for either.

Those hypotheses aside, why is it that the SSA affirmative side always blames a person's problems on someone else? It's seems very reactive, rather than proactive. It is true that things influence us a bit. But in this case don't you think it's better to stop and say "why do people with same-sex attractions choose such behavior" rather blaming the boogey-man of 'society'?

Because people are heavily influenced by the society and community they live in. People do not (cannot?) make choices uninfluenced by that. If you refuse to legitimise someone making a better choice one can't be surprised if they frequently make the poorer choice.

 

[ebia]

Oh yeah cause all Christians are liars!

If Christian "reseach" has a poor reputation that is not without good reason.

 

[GhostDad]

I'm not the one claiming it's normal, so your guess is as good as mine.

I believe that when people say that gay lives are normal they mean that being gay in itself is normal. Promiscuity isn't the issue.

Can you show me where?

If you keep goading me then I might be forced to google it. I don't feel like looking it up though. Suffice it to say, I'm 90% confident that the info in the study you posted is bull.

Oh yeah cause all Christians are liars! I forgot that we can't ever believe anything that Christians say!

Research is research. Calling it "Christian research" clearly belies an agenda. It's been well-established that Christian organizations will lie to support their agenda (creationism, homosexuality research, etc.).

Your blatant prejudice aside, it's a moot point, because as I specifically pointed out, the statistic comes from a publication of the Kinsey Institute, and all their references are cited.

I'm sure you're aware of the Shakespeare quote, "Even the devil can cite scripture for his own purposes"?