Why The Cross?

[gmm4j]

Calvinism states:

God’s choice of certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc.

Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature.

So, if God unconditionally elects and then irresistibly regenerates / makes alive the sinner before he believes in the work of Christ, there is actually no need for the work of Christ.

If it is unconditional election, then the condition of Christ dying or not is as mute as man’s response. They’ve already been elected and whether or not Christ dies, they have still been predestined to life. And, if people are regenerated / made alive by the Spirit in order to believe in the work of Christ, then they really don’t need to believe in the work of Christ to receive life because they were already made alive by the Spirit!

Nothing else has to be done if you have already been elected. In fact, for the Calvinist, to be elect is to be saved and to already be intimately known. Therefore, why would a penalty have to be paid, or faith be necessary? God already selected you for salvation, no conditions need to be met, and that should be enough.

You may argue that Jesus had to die to meet the justice of God. This is a good argument, but not for the God of Calvinism. He is sovereign and every decision He makes is just. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He has mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. He has unconditionally chosen – enough said.

Again I ask, why did Jesus go to the cross when, with the Calvinistic understanding of election and predestination, the cross accomplishes nothing necessary for election or new life?

 

[Foghorn]

Calvinism states:

God’s choice of certain individuals for salvationbefore the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc.

Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinneralive and gives him a new nature.

So, if God unconditionally elects and then irresistibly regenerates / makes alive the sinner before he believes in the work of Christ, there is actually no need for the work of Christ.

If it is unconditional election, then the condition of Christ dying or not is as mute as man’s response. They’ve already been elected and whether or not Christ dies, they have still been predestined to life. And, if people are regenerated / made alive by the Spirit in order to believe in the work of Christ, then they really don’t need to believe in the work of Christ to receive life because they were already made alive by the Spirit!

Nothing else has to be done if you have already been elected. In fact, for the Calvinist, to be elect is to be saved and to already be intimately known. Therefore, why would a penalty have to be paid, or faith be necessary? God already selected you for salvation, no conditions need to be met, and that should be enough.

You may argue that Jesus had to die to meet the justice of God. This is a good argument, but not for the God of Calvinism. He is sovereign and every decision He makes is just. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He has mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. He has unconditionally chosen – enough said.

Again I ask, why did Jesus go to the cross when, with the Calvinistic understanding of election and predestination, the cross accomplishes nothing necessary for election or new life?

Considering God is a holy God who will not look on sin, the cross was absolutely necessary.

I think it would do you well to study into the word Propitiation.

This may help: What is propitiation?

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Foghorn (you’re in red),
Originally Posted by gmm4j
Calvinism states:

God’s choice of certain individuals for salvationbefore the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc.

Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinneralive and gives him a new nature.

So, if God unconditionally elects and then irresistibly regenerates / makes alive the sinner before he believes in the work of Christ, there is actually no need for the work of Christ.

If it is unconditional election, then the condition of Christ dying or not is as mute as man’s response. They’ve already been elected and whether or not Christ dies, they have still been predestined to life. And, if people are regenerated / made alive by the Spirit in order to believe in the work of Christ, then they really don’t need to believe in the work of Christ to receive life because they were already made alive by the Spirit!

Nothing else has to be done if you have already been elected. In fact, for the Calvinist, to be elect is to be saved and to already be intimately known. Therefore, why would a penalty have to be paid, or faith be necessary? God already selected you for salvation, no conditions need to be met, and that should be enough.

You may argue that Jesus had to die to meet the justice of God. This is a good argument, but not for the God of Calvinism. He is sovereign and every decision He makes is just. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He has mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. He has unconditionally chosen – enough said.

Again I ask, why did Jesus go to the cross when, with the Calvinistic understanding of election and predestination, the cross accomplishes nothing necessary for election or new life?


Considering God is a holy God who will not look on sin, the cross was absolutely necessary.
I think it would do you well to study into the word Propitiation.
This may help: What is propitiation?

I know what propitiation is. My understanding of the order of salvation takes into account the necessity for propitiation. It is the Calvinist view that I argue from above that calls into question whether or not it is needed.

Was God’s wrath for some appeased before He intimately knew and elected them? No. According to Calvinism, He simply chose some He would atone for. If this is so, then as I stated above the cross did not accomplish anything to make God choose some. For me, I believe God chose based on the foreseen applied atonement by faith. God elects based on foreseen faith and applied righteousness. Many are called, few are chosen.

And, was God’s wrath appeased toward any particular elect persons before they believed? Aren’t they still under wrath before belief? Yes, they are. So, the application of appeasement is not applied to the individual until belief. Yet, the Calvinist would say that God makes that person come alive spiritually (regeneration) without the appeasement of the cross being yet applied by faith. Therefore, according to Calvinism, you didn’t need the work done on the cross to become a new spiritually alive, born of the Spirit creature. (The work of the cross is not applied to the individual until faith).

And then, there is the Calvinist’s view of sovereignty. He is sovereign and every decision He makes is just. He is the Potter and we are the clay. He has mercy upon whom He wants to have mercy. He has unconditionally chosen – enough said.

If God, within Himself, chose to have mercy upon some and not upon others without doing anything to appease His wrath, would you Oh, pot, say that the Potter is unjust? With, what I believe is the Calvinist’s hyper-view of sovereignty; you would not have to have the cross to satisfy God’s justice.

Instead, I believe God is just and the atonement is necessary for both election and new life.

Blessings!

 

[gmm4j]

So, if God unconditionally elects and then irresistibly regenerates / makes alive the sinner before he believes in the work of Christ, there is actually no need for the work of Christ.

 

[ronathanedwards]

So, if God unconditionally elects and then irresistibly regenerates / makes alive the sinner before he believes in the work of Christ, there is actually no need for the work of Christ.

gmm4j, I told you before, read some reformed books and get informed on the subjects. This assertion is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read. It truly manifests your tremendous ignorance of the atonement and the covenants.

The cross REDEEMED and bought His people's faith. Without the cross, there could BE no irresistible grace or regeneration. You need to spend less time on the internet and do some reading.

I have been away for a while and you still haven't understood there is NO TIME GAP between regeneration and belief. God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud. You have to listen to those who know the Greek. Your completely our of place discussing these arguments.

 

[SolaOne]

Ronathan, I thought God unconditionally elects those He would die for? Is God intimate with and pleased by something outside of faith and outside of Christ?

Respectfully,
Sola

 

[ronathanedwards]

Ronathan, I thought God unconditionally elects those He would die for? Is God intimate with and pleased by something outside of faith and outside of Christ?

God is pleased with His Will being accomplished (and that being GOD doing the accomplishing). Therefore, all things that happen are pleasing to Him since all things are according to what He has ordained. Be careful, however, I'm speaking of God's work in His plan, not MAN'S. God is furious with the acts of man outside of faith, they are sinful.

Is there any didactic texts that speak of your question?
For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. Rom. 14:23