Why the bitterness?

[hraedisc]

Why can so many "Christians" slate Godly men who are moving in the spirit?
A friend of mine used to go to a site called 'deception in the church' and he was critical of practically every big ministry because of what he was reading on this site? How can we publically speak out againsts Gods choosen people?

Some may be bitter but not all are.
The definition of "Godly men" varies. Deciding who is "moving in the spirit" is also going to lead to differing opinions.

Let's not forget:



2 Timothy 4:2
preach the Word; be instant in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 7 In context: Matthew 7:14-16)


Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 24 In context: Matthew 24:10-12)


Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 24 In context: Matthew 24:23-25)


Mark 13:22
for false christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 13 In context: Mark 13:21-23)


Luke 6:26
Woe unto you when all men shall speak well of you, for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 6 In context: Luke 6:25-27)


2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Peter 2 In context: 2 Peter 2:1-2)


1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(Whole Chapter: 1 John 4 In context: 1 John 4:1-2)

Matthew 24:5
for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and shall deceive many.
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 24 In context: Matthew 24:4-6)

Mark 13:6
For many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ!' and shall deceive many.
(Whole Chapter: Mark 13 In context: Mark 13:5-7)


Luke 21:8
And He said, "Take heed that ye be not deceived, for many shall come in My name, saying, `I am Christ,' and, `the time draweth near.' Go ye not therefore after them.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 21 In context: Luke 21:7-9)

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them,
(Whole Chapter:Ephesians 5 In context:Ephesians 5:10-12)

 

[Sparkle]

So, do you suppose we are to go through our lives, seeking out the wolves? Assuming that all charasmatic preachers are wolves?

To me, that would quickly harden our hearts, and we would miss out on our relationship with God and our growth, because we would be consumed with judgemental thoughts.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think one of the important things God is teaching us - as I have already stated - is that once we stop clinging to money and possesions we can "rule" over them. The moment we controll our finances and possesions we controll where we are going. Untill then we are always in a I don't have enough and I feel bad about it and myself attitude. There were time when we also had litterally no money, but I could still share a slice of bread with someone that was even worse off. And that person could share his time lending a hand doing something for the next person. There is always something you can give to someone that has value to the one you are giving it to. That not only enpowers you but gives God something to bless.

So you can even take it out of the Biblical perspective and say it is not so much an old/new testament concept that should or shouldn,t be adhered to. It is a basic live skill to enhance your live and put you back in controll of your financial destiny.
If I sound like Dr Phil, I was a Bussiness Advisor before Ministry so I am not sucking it out of my thumb. Go tithe SOMETHING, time, food , money anything. And see how it changes the way you look at life.

Right, but the question is, if we are not teaching this type of giving, are we any better that the false teachers this thread is questioning? What do we teach, and how does that teaching measure up to the scriptures?

 

[Ecclesiastes]

Do you know what I find interesting? How these really religious people are on the look out for all these false prophets and they miss the real prophets of God, the real men of God. They sound like Pharisees...ha...they have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. I find more problem in these 'watchful" people then any others. yes we are to watch out and discern. But even tehse charismatic preachers tell you to not listen to any preacher if he can't prove it to you from the word. I have heard them say that thousands of times.

And another problem I see is a religious mind set that the church got into some hundred years after the beginning of the Early Church. People, for some strange reason, began to think that poverty= humbleness and holiness and that sickness brings or is holiness. That is such a lie from the pit of hell. Yet so many Christians today fall for it and believe it. But didn't the prophet say, "By His Stripes Ye Are Healed?"? And didn't God say, That it is I who gives thee power to get wealth? Hmmm, didn't He? Or are we choosing to be a hard-headed, stubborn people? Or will we listen to the Spirit of the Living God?

 

[RubyRose]

Cause of bitterness?

Pride..
Harshness..
Self-righteousness..

this is where we shoot our own..
and kick them when they are down..

all "in the Name of Christ"..

 

[razzelflabben]

Do you know what I find interesting? How these really religious people are on the look out for all these false prophets and they miss the real prophets of God, the real men of God. They sound like Pharisees...ha...they have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. I find more problem in these 'watchful" people then any others. yes we are to watch out and discern. But even tehse charismatic preachers tell you to not listen to any preacher if he can't prove it to you from the word. I have heard them say that thousands of times.

And another problem I see is a religious mind set that the church got into some hundred years after the beginning of the Early Church. People, for some strange reason, began to think that poverty= humbleness and holiness and that sickness brings or is holiness. That is such a lie from the pit of hell. Yet so many Christians today fall for it and believe it. But didn't the prophet say, "By His Stripes Ye Are Healed?"? And didn't God say, That it is I who gives thee power to get wealth? Hmmm, didn't He? Or are we choosing to be a hard-headed, stubborn people? Or will we listen to the Spirit of the Living God?

When I was very young, our pastor taught to never take any teachers word for anything, his being able to prove it or not, always study to show thyself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed. I took this to heart. It greieves me that others cannot or will not do the same. Study the word for yourself.

Even in the case of poverty and healing, we take the scriptures to say what comforts us, and leave off all the uncomfortable things that we would rather not believe and call it good sound teaching. Scripture is infallible only when we view the teaching in light of the totality of scripture. To take pieces of scripture and come to a conclusion is horrid teaching. It requires study, prayer, openness. God says that if we ask for wisdom He will give it. How often have you heard anyone ask God for wisdom when they were studying the word of God. They ask for the Word to be open to them, but not for wisdom. Why is this? I always ask for wisdom and the funny thing is, when I discuss a teaching with someone, that doesn't fit the totality of scripture, it always ends with silence from the other party. Scripture has only one meaning, one interpretation, but if we cannot remove our self from the study, we cannot see God. I think this is often (not always) why God gives sickness and poverty. So that we can learn to remove ourselves from the picture and put our focus on God. Worked for Paul, Job, etc. What was the test, the lesson for Peter when he walked on the water, it was, take your eyes off self and focus on me. Why would God even want to remove this lesson from our lives by treating us like spoiled rich kids? Doesn't fit the totallity of scripture.

The prophet says "By His stripes we are healed" what does Rom. clearly say we are healed from? From every sickness? NOT IN MY BIBLE. From all discomforts in life? NOT IN MY BIBLE. I read the same Bible as everyone else, purchased from any Christian bookstore, and it says in Rom. that HIs stipes heal us from the curse of death into the promise of the resurrection.
"But where oh death is thy sting, where of death is thy victory"

 

[Ecclesiastes]

About Paul...

I am guessing you are referring to the "My Grace is SUfficient" chapter. Grace has been a catch all phrase for religious folks. But the Grace of God is unmerited favor, influence upon the heart, divine help, gift, and the power of the Holy Spirit. So God was telling Paul that the grace that was given to him was sufficient to handle the current problem. What was the problem? It said a Messenger (angelos) of Satan had been sent to buffet (hit him again and again and again) him. But the Grace GOd gave him will cause the situation to change and cause him to win. That's why Paul said I rejoice in my weakness because ten God's power is made manifest.

About Job....
Notice it was Satan who did those things to Job. God did not give it to him. But Job also opened the door for these things by fear. read Job 3:25, it says that he feared a fear and that fear came upon him.

Also why would God give us sickness? Isn't he the God who heals us? We are His children, and God is good, all the time. God putting sickness on His children is like we are calling him a "skitzo" (a person with many different selves). What does Acts 10:38 says? How God anointed Jesus of Nazereth who went about doing good HEALING all who were oppressed of the DEVIL.

Wait a minute let's read the Bible to show ourselves approve, study the Hebrew and Greek, study the context. Jesus was turned into a bruise so that we could be healed from all sickness and diseases.

Also about your Romans reference....
Romans doesn't use the word "stripes" Please post scripture references. Are you sure you are reading all the Bible? You quoted 1 Cor 15:55, but where the rest of your reference about the stripes part? Paul is saying we ahve victory over death, and that death is only a transaction for the Christian. So what were you trying to prove?

1 Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY ? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING ?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[Ecclesiastes]

What does Psalms 103:1-3 say?

Psalms 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And all that is within me, bless His holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits; 3 Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases

What's left after all?
NOTHING.

 

[Jim B]

So, do you suppose we are to go through our lives, seeking out the wolves? Assuming that all charasmatic preachers are wolves?

To me, that would quickly harden our hearts, and we would miss out on our relationship with God and our growth, because we would be consumed with judgemental thoughts.

Then there’s the other alternative, Sparkle - never question self-appointed prophets so they will be enabled to rip off even more people with impugnity.

Maybe you should re-read the scriptures in post #21 above and ask yourself if God gave us these scriptures for us to, as you said, “quickly harden our hearts, and we would miss out on our relationship with God and our growth, because we would be consumed with judgemental thoughts.”

Discernment and caution is not the same as judgmental thoughts.

Christians are the Lord’s sheep, not the preacher’s mutton. God did not give us His sheep to shear them but to care for them.

And he gave us ample scripture on being watchful regarding evil ministers. I intend to obey him, even at the risk of being judgmental (which it is not).

Just look a the number of NT scriptures warning us to beware of corrupt ministers and teachers:

Matthew 5:19; 7:15,22,23; 15:9,14; 20:20-27; 23:3,4,13; 24:4,5,24,26,48-51; Mark 9:33-35; 10:35-37; 13:21,22; Luke 6:39; 9:46; 11:35,46-52; 12:45,46; 21:8; 22:24; John 3:10; 5:43; 10:1,5,8,10-13; Acts 20:29,30; Romans 2:19-25; 16:17,18; 1 Corinthians 3:1-4,10-16,21; 11:18,19; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 11:1-31; Galatians 1:6-8; 5:10; Ephesians 4:14; Philippians 1:15,16; 3:2; Colossians 2:4,8,18,19; 1 Timothy 1:3-7,19; 4:1-3,7; 6:3-5,20,21; 2 Timothy 2:14-18; 3:6-9,13; 4:3; Titus 1:10-14; 3:10,11; Hebrews 13:9; 2 Peter 2:1-22; 3:16; 1 John 2:18,26; 4:1-3,5; 2 John 1:7-10; 3 John 1:10; Jude 1:4-11; Revelation 2:1,2,12,14,15,18,20-23.​

Should we heed this great body of scriptures or should we just ignore them?

\o/

 

[ChristianRocks]

I don't know why but for some reason, a song by Disciple called "I Just Know" immediately came to mind. These are the lyrics:

what makes you different from one another
why do you argue about who you follow
there is no man that you belong to
there's only one God that can claim you (1 Corinthians 3:5-7)

I don't care if you don't speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 13:1)
I don't care if you're into submersion (Matthew 3:16)
what does it matter if wear a liturgical robe
or prophesy and say God said so (1 John 4:1)

Chorus
I just know Jesus is the way
I just know Jesus is the truth
I just know Jesus is the life
I know that Jesus is my God (John 14:6)

do you serve your name or do you serve mankind
would you feel the same if they took down your sign
could you sit next to me if I was Baptist or Presbyterian
or do I need to be a charismatic or Episcopalian (Acts 2:17)

I don't care if you drink grape juice or if it's wine (Matthew 26:27- 29)
and I don't care if you get out of church on time
what does it matter if you praise God with music in your church (Psalm 150)
or you burn your dead or bury them six feet in the dirt

I don't care if you clap your hands (Psalm 47:1)
I don't care if you get out in the aisle and dance (Psalm 149:3)
what's it matter if someone lets out a hallelujah shout (Psalm 100:1)
have we forgotten what praising Yahweh is all about

Powerful song, especially the chorus. I'm sure that Disciple is not to the taste's of people here (it's hard rock), but if you want to listen to it, you can download it at:

http://it.solners.lv/booriga/boo/disciple-ijustknow.mp3 (Just open it, I couldnt find the full song so this will have to do.)

God Bless

 

[hraedisc]

What does Psalms 103:1-3 say?

Psalms 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And all that is within me, bless His holy name. 2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits; 3 Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases

What's left after all?
NOTHING.

I guess your church never has funerals.

 

[razzelflabben]

About Paul...

I am guessing you are referring to the "My Grace is SUfficient" chapter. Grace has been a catch all phrase for religious folks. But the Grace of God is unmerited favor, influence upon the heart, divine help, gift, and the power of the Holy Spirit. So God was telling Paul that the grace that was given to him was sufficient to handle the current problem. What was the problem? It said a Messenger (angelos) of Satan had been sent to buffet (hit him again and again and again) him. But the Grace GOd gave him will cause the situation to change and cause him to win. That's why Paul said I rejoice in my weakness because ten God's power is made manifest.

About Job....
Notice it was Satan who did those things to Job. God did not give it to him. But Job also opened the door for these things by fear. read Job 3:25, it says that he feared a fear and that fear came upon him.

Also why would God give us sickness? Isn't he the God who heals us? We are His children, and God is good, all the time. God putting sickness on His children is like we are calling him a "skitzo" (a person with many different selves). What does Acts 10:38 says? How God anointed Jesus of Nazereth who went about doing good HEALING all who were oppressed of the DEVIL.

Wait a minute let's read the Bible to show ourselves approve, study the Hebrew and Greek, study the context. Jesus was turned into a bruise so that we could be healed from all sickness and diseases.

Also about your Romans reference....
Romans doesn't use the word "stripes" Please post scripture references. Are you sure you are reading all the Bible? You quoted 1 Cor 15:55, but where the rest of your reference about the stripes part? Paul is saying we ahve victory over death, and that death is only a transaction for the Christian. So what were you trying to prove?

1 Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY ? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING ?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

I fear this is neither the time nor the place for this discussion for it does not follow the intent of this thread. We can discuss it on another thread or in pm if you like. The problem with the basic teaching you are putting forth is that it leaves out a whole host of scriptures that must be applied to our total understanding of God's teachings to us on the issues presented.

 

[razzelflabben]

If we are instructed by God to speak out against false teachers, how do we know if they are false teachers and how can we know if we are false teachers ourselves. Matt. 7:15-23

I reread Gal. 5:16-26, to find out what those fruits are. I was struck with this question, how many of us have truely died to self? One thing that bothers me about some of the earlier posts here and the referred to scripture is that physical freedom from poverty and freedom from sickness, are necessary for the self, flesh, not for the spiritual, Godly. note vs. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. If my concern is for the physical, then how have I crucified the sinful nature. The KJV says And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If would seem to me that if we see God as our ticket to be free of the physical discomforts, then we have yet to crucify the flesh which would mean, that we are not worthy to preach a gospel that we do not yet understand.

 

[Svt4Him]

Now lets all be nice.

I think the reason is that most people have the gift of discerning of hearts, and try and use it as often as they can. The other reason is we life by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We know what's good, we know what's evil. The thing we forget is the knowledge of both will lead to death.

I'm glad when the Bible is preached.

 

[razzelflabben]

Now lets all be nice.

I was speaking as much to myself as anyone one else here. I quess that if the shoe fits, we need to wear it and if it doesn't, then we need to examine our lives because sooner or later, we all fail in this department.

I think the reason is that most people have the gift of discerning of hearts, and try and use it as often as they can. The other reason is we life by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We know what's good, we know what's evil. The thing we forget is the knowledge of both will lead to death.

I'm glad when the Bible is preached.

What point are you trying to make here? What are you trying to say?

 

[LynneClomina]

How does this fit into the NT teaching to give joyfully and abundantly. Or Paul (I think) who teaches to give for the equality of the poor so that when they need it, they can give to you.

Don't want this to turn into a thread about tithing but no one seemed interested in my post about the subject addressed.

i give my tithe (and beyond) joyfully and abundantly.... how do they condradict? if one truly wants to do the lord's will, in any arena, are we to do it griping? or joyfully? joyfully, of course! do i gripe about how i am not allowed to murder or lust, etc? no, i JOYFULLY follow His command to love.... do i gripe about how i am not to steal from God? not, i JOYFULLY follow his command to give joyfully. he wants me to, so i do, and i am glad to do it because i am doing it for HIS benefit, not mine.

and tithing happened before the law, if i am correct....

 

[Svt4Him]

I was speaking as much to myself as anyone one else here. I quess that if the shoe fits, we need to wear it and if it doesn't, then we need to examine our lives because sooner or later, we all fail in this department.


What point are you trying to make here? What are you trying to say?

Why do you think I was refering to you specifically?

 

[razzelflabben]

i give my tithe (and beyond) joyfully and abundantly.... how do they condradict? if one truly wants to do the lord's will, in any arena, are we to do it griping? or joyfully? joyfully, of course! do i gripe about how i am not allowed to murder or lust, etc? no, i JOYFULLY follow His command to love.... do i gripe about how i am not to steal from God? not, i JOYFULLY follow his command to give joyfully. he wants me to, so i do, and i am glad to do it because i am doing it for HIS benefit, not mine.

and tithing happened before the law, if i am correct....

I didn't say that they did contidict one another but rather asked why in so many churches, the teaching on giving ends with the old testament tithe. (old law) God expects so much more from our giving than 10% when we study church history, we find the the tithe was more than 10% and was a tax. The church no longer has a tax placed on it's members (to my knowledge) yet the church preaches tithe (tax) and falls very short of the NT teaching of giving beyond and for the purpose of equality. (new law) Why this discrepancy in teaching from the church (not a discrpancy from God and scripture)

 

[shout2thelord]

isnt it tithes and offerings are pastor normally mentions both. anyhow isnt this off topic from where this thread started. I think that there still is a lot of bitterness though some christians just seem to want to pull others down. so it becomes more than just disagreeing with a person and turns into an attack on their person or personality.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why do you think I was refering to you specifically?

Well, let me see, first the post was made right after I posted. Second, it was the most challenging thing I can recall being said in recent posts. Third, it challenged me as well, which is often uncomfortable. And fourthly, I am often treated with less than love when I post challenging scriptural teachings to such threads as this and whether right or wrong, I find myself in defense mode before I even get the words out, preparing for an attack without study or understanding to back up the accusations. If you intended it for someone else I appologize and I will continue to try to keep my emotions out of the discussion. It is very hard however when the behavior has been repeated often. I simply wish to find truth, so I ask questions, study, seek out discussions, pray, etc. Often to find close minds and hearts full of accusations. It is my failure that I allow that to govern my responses and I am working on that emotional response, I fear however that dispite my desires, I am merely human and must deal with emotions just like everyone else.