Why the bitterness?

[scham]

Why can so many "Christians" slate Godly men who are moving in the spirit?
A friend of mine used to go to a site called 'deception in the church' and he was critical of practically every big ministry because of what he was reading on this site? How can we publically speak out againsts Gods choosen people?

 

[shout2thelord]

I know but the best things is to not let it get you frustrated. For a while i let it get me wound up but i dont anymore. I just try tp support or encourage those who people are speaking against. Though i do think its sad that other christians seem to have the need to pull everyone down who isnt like them.

 

[Jim B]

Why can so many "Christians" slate Godly men who are moving in the spirit?
A friend of mine used to go to a site called 'deception in the church' and he was critical of practically every big ministry because of what he was reading on this site? How can we publically speak out againsts Gods choosen people?

Perhaps the bitterness comes because so many scams are perpetrated on God’s people and so many scandals have rocked the church. It has jaded some people and created mistrust among believers. It is wrong, of course, to be hypercritical of all highly visible ministries (“big” ministries as you called them) because of the crimes of a few, but I also believe it is just as wrong to abandon honest discernment gullibly swallow everything these “big ministries” are trying to sell.

Personally, I am distrustful of men whose fame and reputation are dependent on my offering and I am appalled when they take money from widows to “consume on their own lusts,” drive luxury cars at the expense of widows, and live in luxury homes off the donations of people on fixed incomes. Nor do I always believe their press reports of healings, miracles, missionary efforts, etc. and feel I have a God-given right to expect some sort of documentation.

Sigh.

I may be jaded. But just give me a simple pastor and a devoted church with their community at heart and I’m satisfied. I’ll leave world evangelism to the Holy Spirit.

\o/

 

[AfricaWim]

....just give me a simple pastor and a devoted church with their community at heart and I’m satisfied. I’ll leave world evangelism to the Holy Spirit.
\o/

Amen. Church needs to be about people with names, not just numbers in the bookkeeping system or the tally log after the crusade.

 

[Sparkle]

I believe that a lot of good, comes out of the 'big ministries'. I don't know about documented miracles, but they do preach the gospel and that Jesus Christ is Lord. People get saved through these ministries, therefore that is good enough for me and God can do the rest of the judging. It certaintly don't think it is any place for a Christian to judge harshly when their 'proof' is usually taken way out of context!

As for monetary offerings and gifts, every church you go to will send around an offering plate, it is up to you what you are going to give. No one twists your arm and makes you give all your money away. Most if not all crusades are free, and are totally dependant on monetary offerings. Lets look at it with a little balance.

 

[razzelflabben]

As for monetary offerings and gifts, every church you go to will send around an offering plate, it is up to you what you are going to give. No one twists your arm and makes you give all your money away. Most if not all crusades are free, and are totally dependant on monetary offerings. Lets look at it with a little balance.

Not every church passes an offering plate. Grew up in one that didn't. Know what happened to their offerings when they stopped passing the plate? The offering balance rose. Isn't that interesting?

I am a firm believer in not judging others my question however is where does Matt. 7:15-23 come into the equasion? Some say that thier fruit would be people they have lead to Christ. Yet in verse 15, we see that we are talking about false teachers. So fruits must mean something else. Gal. 5:22-26. So the question then is, what is our responsibility when we see false teachers as pointed out by scripture?

 

[Jim B]

I believe that a lot of good, comes out of the 'big ministries'. I don't know about documented miracles, but they do preach the gospel and that Jesus Christ is Lord. People get saved through these ministries, therefore that is good enough for me . . .

Are you saying that the end justifies the meanness? That anything is permissable so long as people get saved? That's a strange sense of ethics, Sparkle.

\o/

 

[Victorian Rose]

I believe that a lot of good, comes out of the 'big ministries'. I don't know about documented miracles, but they do preach the gospel and that Jesus Christ is Lord. People get saved through these ministries, therefore that is good enough for me and God can do the rest of the judging. It certaintly don't think it is any place for a Christian to judge harshly when their 'proof' is usually taken way out of context!

As for monetary offerings and gifts, every church you go to will send around an offering plate, it is up to you what you are going to give. No one twists your arm and makes you give all your money away. Most if not all crusades are free, and are totally dependant on monetary offerings. Lets look at it with a little balance.

I agree with Sparkle. No one twists you arm and makes you give all your money away.

Personally, I am distrustful of men whose fame and reputation are dependent on my offering and I am appalled when they take money from widows to “consume on their own lusts,” drive luxury cars at the expense of widows, and live in luxury homes off the donations of people on fixed incomes.

Those widows and people on fixed income have a right to tithe and give. I live on a fixed income and if my money was given back to me, I would find another church to go to. Why? Because the tithe is the Lord's. God expects me to tithe on any increase. That tithe goes for the Lord's work. My pastors are the stewards of that money and if they misuse it, they have to answer to God for that misuse. My responsiblity doesn't end there. I am also to pray for my pastors so that they don't stray from what the Lord wants them to do and that they continue to be good stewards. I also pray that I continue to be a good steward to money He has given me and I only give where the Lord tells me to.

 

[razzelflabben]

Because the tithe is the Lord's. God expects me to tithe on any increase.

What does it mean to tithe on any increase? I don't understand this. Increase from what?

 

[Jim B]

I agree with Sparkle. No one twists you arm and makes you give all your money away.

But what if they lie to you, deceive you, defraud and scam you and others (and recent history has proven that some of them do)? Are you guiltless for supporting such criminal activity perpetrated in the name of Jesus or are you culpable? Just turning your head away from unethical - even criminal - activity done in His name does not absolve you.

I am truly amazed at the lack of responsibility and discernent you are suggesting.

\o/

 

[enoch son]

What is the bigger SCAMS! I guess keeping childern of God blind from the infilling in the pews is not one? Preaching agianst the gifts of God is some kind of state of grace to you! Who is the bigger fool those who do and fall short or those who preach agianst? As for me I fall short of the glory of God. I will not preach agianst.

 

[Victorian Rose]

What does it mean to tithe on any increase? I don't understand this. Increase from what?

Any increase is any money you receive that you haven't tithed on yet.

But what if they lie to you, deceive you, defraud and scam you and others (and recent history has proven that some of them do)? Are you guiltless for supporting such criminal activity perpetrated in the name of Jesus or are you culpable? Just turning your head away from unethical - even criminal - activity done in His name does not absolve you.

I put my faith and trust in God. When I pray to Him to guide me so that I continue to be a good steward, I have faith that He does. I listen to Him as to where to give extra donations. The tithe goes to the local church.

I am truly amazed at the lack of responsibility and discernent you are suggesting.

The only one that can judge my "lack" of responsiblity and discernment is the Lord. The fact that I agree with sparkle doesn't make me naive. It puts the blame where it belongs on those that mislead the people. As far as those that are misled are concerned, they made a mistake. They trusted where they shouldn't. They had a choice and made the wrong one. Hopefully they learn from it.

 

[scham]

The thing that gets me is most of the bad things we hear about some well know pastors is all word of mouth, passed down like chines whispers, it's easy to make someone you don't really like look really bad and the reason you don't really like it is because the person who told you didn't really like him/her and the reason for that is...... and so on, most slander starts out of pride or jelousy. I'm not saying that you should dismiss everything you hear but you should check to see if what you are told is in fact correct. I know of some things were money is mispent because I know that the person who told me is a highly respected international speaker and it's things that he has seen first hand, but I don't know who because he never named names of even hinted, which in my book is ok because you should name the sin and identify it but never speak out against Gods anointed even if they are wrong, only if they go directly against GOds word.

 

[razzelflabben]

Any increase is any money you receive that you haven't tithed on yet.

So if I am born into money, and inherite vast fortune, I have no responsibility because it is not an increase?

 

[Victorian Rose]

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So if I am born into money, and inherite vast fortune, I have no responsibility because it is not an increase?

The money you inherit is an increase. That money was your parents or grandparents and they gifted it to you. You did not have it to begin with so it is an increase.

 

[razzelflabben]

How does this fit into the NT teaching to give joyfully and abundantly. Or Paul (I think) who teaches to give for the equality of the poor so that when they need it, they can give to you.

Don't want this to turn into a thread about tithing but no one seemed interested in my post about the subject addressed.

 

[Victorian Rose]

How does this fit into the NT teaching to give joyfully and abundantly. Or Paul (I think) who teaches to give for the equality of the poor so that when they need it, they can give to you.

I am not sure. Maybe Diddy or a trusted pastor can answer this.

 

[AfricaWim]

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So if I am born into money, and inherite vast fortune, I have no responsibility because it is not an increase?

I think what she meant is that you tithe on everything you have not tithed on before. So if I did not recieve any income this month, I don't NEED to tithe on the money in the savings account I tithed on last year. That is off course if you want to be letter correct. Most would tithe in any case because it would be from their hearts and we know where the blessing came from in the first place.

Tithing and sowing is something that should come from your heart first of all. Yes there is a specified percentage, but I believe it is specified because of the nature of people. Listen to any money management specialist and they will tell you that you should give a fixed sum of money away every month. There is a method to all of this, even if you are not a christian. It makes you the one to rule over your financial situation and not the other way round. But then also you should do it with a happy heart and not with a motive, as if buying a lotto ticket, hoping for a return. Unfortunately many evangelists make it sound like you are buying a lotto ticket and instead of buying one should "stretch" your faith because "you can't outgive God" and brainwash people into giving themselves into debt. They say there is a sucker born every minute and there are always people ready to take advantage of other's unwillingness to think for themselves. Unfortunately it sometimes reflect bad on the rest of us.


Which brings us to the main topic: This is why many evangelists are being slated. To grab huge audiences they walk on the edge of the letter. Thereby opening themselves up to judgement on how far you can take the Word. Some teach prosperity and live in excess while people are dying of hunger. That opens you up to be slated, but is a whole new discussion that have no hard and fast answers. :troll:

 

[razzelflabben]

I think what she meant is that you tithe on everything you have not tithed on before. So if I did not recieve any income this month, I don't NEED to tithe on the money in the savings account I tithed on last year. That is off course if you want to be letter correct. Most would tithe in any case because it would be from their hearts and we know where the blessing came from in the first place.

Is this reserved only for money. Example. We are poor, a family member is currently giving her tithe to us to help keep the heat on and clothes on our back. Do I tithe on that tithe? We get food stamps to feed ourselves, how do I tithe that increase? When someone gives us hand me down clothes, it is a definate increase to us, in fact, I was recently given a pair of pants, bringing the extent of my wordrobe up to 3 pair or pants and as many shirts, how do I tithe that increase?

Tithing and sowing is something that should come from your heart first of all. Yes there is a specified percentage, but I believe it is specified because of the nature of people. Listen to any money management specialist and they will tell you that you should give a fixed sum of money away every month. There is a method to all of this, even if you are not a christian. It makes you the one to rule over your financial situation and not the other way round. But then also you should do it with a happy heart and not with a motive, as if buying a lotto ticket, hoping for a return. Unfortunately many evangelists make it sound like you are buying a lotto ticket and instead of buying one should "stretch" your faith because "you can't outgive God" and brainwash people into giving themselves into debt. They say there is a sucker born every minute and there are always people ready to take advantage of other's unwillingness to think for themselves. Unfortunately it sometimes reflect bad on the rest of us.

I get this, but what I don't understand is why we teach the OT law of tithing (a tax issued by the church, the governing body at the time) and fail to teach the NT understanding of giving. 2 Cor. 8 is a perfect example of this. I have yet to hear this teaching on giving, at least with any acceptance, even on this forum. Most of the time if I mention the scirpture, the post is overlooked. If we fail to teach the word of God, are we any better that the people this dicussion is about? Where do we draw the line of speaking out or holding our tongue when dealing with false teachings or false teachers? Is it determined by my own comfort level, what I want to believe, or do we have an obligation to question, explore, and challenge the teachings and teachers of today?

Which brings us to the main topic: This is why many evangelists are being slated. To grab huge audiences they walk on the edge of the letter. Thereby opening themselves up to judgement on how far you can take the Word. Some teach prosperity and live in excess while people are dying of hunger. That opens you up to be slated, but is a whole new discussion that have no hard and fast answers. :troll:

Which brings us back the my first post here, how do we know the truth from the lies? By fruits?

 

[AfricaWim]

I think one of the important things God is teaching us - as I have already stated - is that once we stop clinging to money and possesions we can "rule" over them. The moment we controll our finances and possesions we controll where we are going. Untill then we are always in a I don't have enough and I feel bad about it and myself attitude. There were time when we also had litterally no money, but I could still share a slice of bread with someone that was even worse off. And that person could share his time lending a hand doing something for the next person. There is always something you can give to someone that has value to the one you are giving it to. That not only enpowers you but gives God something to bless.

So you can even take it out of the Biblical perspective and say it is not so much an old/new testament concept that should or shouldn,t be adhered to. It is a basic live skill to enhance your live and put you back in controll of your financial destiny.
If I sound like Dr Phil, I was a Bussiness Advisor before Ministry so I am not sucking it out of my thumb. Go tithe SOMETHING, time, food , money anything. And see how it changes the way you look at life.