• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic

You were the one who brought up blasphemy not me. Or it was someone else, I don't remember.

And yes, a person can lie in order to promote something they believe in, regardless of whether it is true or not. It would actually help their case for god if they were to create a story to help boost his image, but I digress.

The only point I was trying to make was this:

  • Religious people want to spread their religion
  • In order to spread their religion, people must accept what they are saying and see it as having some affect on their lives
  • If people do not feel like the religion will have an impact on their lives, they will not follow it
  • So, in order to show that the religion will have an impact on their lives they will give examples of how it impacted others
  • The better the example, the more likely people will accept their religion
  • If getting people to accept their religion is not going so good, they may exaggerate or lie to convice others

I am not necesarrily saying that this happened in this instance, but that it is a possibility. People do not always live up to their ideals. Unless you can give me an example (except Jesus) who has always did the right and has never done any wrong, then you might be right.
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship

You were not saying that any religious individual can lie - you were accusing the evangelists of maliciously spreading a blasphemous message in the name of the LORD in order to deceive the world.
Aside from the fact that this is a broad claim, you failed to provide even a shred of a motive as to why they should have done this - altogether completely ignoring the fact that these people risked not only their entire social credibility but their lives for this message.

First, you claim it's because they want to "further their religion in order to please God" - ignoring the fact that the God that they are furthering with the gospel explicitly commanded them not to lie.
Then, you claim they didn't need to fear God because he was probably made up as well, which fails to adress the simple fact that a group of seventy people don't randomly decide to drop what they're doing, renounce their previous concepts of divine law and start preaching radical ideas that get will have them killed in an instance.

I'm done for the night.
Have a blessed Easter holiday.
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship

Yes.

  • If getting people to accept their religion is not going so good, they may exaggerate or lie to convice others

1.) This presupposes that the religion in question condones lies as a means of conveying faith (which it doesn't).
2.) This presupposes that there is a "religion" or "faith" to begin with and completely ignores the fact that the evangelists must have had a reason to come to faith in Jesus Christ in the first place, especially given the circumstances of the time.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats

All of that may be true, but the religion of the first disciples was Judaism, and that remained the case even after they had acquired the nickname "Christians". As Jews, to claim that a human being was divine would normally have been the grossest blasphemy in their own eyes, let alone the eyes of their fellow Jews. Apart from going against the beliefs they had held since birth, they would have known that to make such a claim could no nothing except get them in very hot water.

If, in spite of all that, they still claimed that Jesus was divine, they:

a.) Must have believed it, and

b.) Have had good reason to believe it.
 
Upvote 0

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic

You too
 
Upvote 0

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic

Weren't we discussing miracles? I will go back and reread the thread, I just remember reading about why would a religious person lie since it was against god, but religious people do lie so I pointed that out.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,185
52,656
Guam
✟5,149,918.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Weren't we discussing miracles? I will go back and reread the thread, I just remember reading about why would a religious person lie since it was against god, but religious people do lie so I pointed that out.

Does it surprise you that religious people lie?

I hear they can't walk on water either!
 
Upvote 0

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic
 
Upvote 0

Senator Cheese

Master of Cheese
Feb 4, 2014
812
96
✟23,914.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship

No, and I am sorry if I was unable to properly convey what I was trying to say. As I said already, my English is a bit rusty.
I'm saying that if different witnesses independently confirm a sighting, then that sighting will be more credible.
The New Testament is an independent collection of verifying accounts (even if you take the synoptics as one), whereas the Quoran is a manifesto that was dictated by one individual.



I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see various indications that morality is something deeply intuitive which is the reason why the core social rules are the same in almost every society and why children (who have yet to undergo model learning) often share more values than adults.
There's no doubt that intuitive morality can be reeducated to suit the distorted views of evil (i.e. child soldiers, etc.) - but I am certain that an intuitive compass remains nonetheless.

Many of the rules that are seemingly secularist (for example, the Kant'sche Imperativ) are not "logical" and presuppose a conscience. But I believe that this discussion would be worthy of another thread.

It does not really break it. Good things and bad things happen to all people in different proportions. That does not get rid of the fact that the Muslim god rewarded his prophet while the christian god punished himself.

The paradigm was that the rich were supposedly more blessed.
Jesus Christ "set the record straight" by saying that worldly wealth is no indicator of spiritual wealth - in fact even saying that someone who holds on to his money more than to his heart will have a hard time before the LORD.

Alas, I don't really believe that the LORD "rewarded" his prophet - just as much as I don't think Abramovic, Steve Jobs or any other rich individual is "rewarded".

So as long as you are in a religion, it does not matter that you are not in the Christian religion?

This might not be a very fundamentalist biblical approach, but you're asking for my personal opinion: works and grace go hand in hand.
If you lead a life in which you value your fellow man and in which you make yourself aware that all of your little "achievements" aren't the result of your superiority but the result of that awesome blessing that you had in being able to be the person you are (with all your faults and strengths combined), then I believe you will be given the chance to meet God in the kingdom. The Bible says that the LORD is just, the Bible says that it's more important to truly live according to the LORD than to pay lip service and as such, someone who has never heard of Christianity by definition will have the chance to be saved.

Jesus Christ said the law boils down to two different concepts, which is loving your neighbor (compassion) and loving the LORD (humility) - these concepts have been written into every man's heart and as such are universal.

But again, this is my personal opinion. I am no Bible literalist and this opinion may not reflect their interpretation of Christian faith.


Again, you're asking my personal opinion: I think the Bible is a great guideline, but I would hardly call it the inerrant word of God. Jesus Christ didn't sit down and spend 30 years writing an instruction manual, but he wrote himself into our hearts.
The fact that his story was documented is great, because his teachings are, plain and simple, awesome.

Having been atheist myself, I am also certain that every man has the possibility to experience the LORD if he is able to put aside all preconceptions first.
But even if he does not - as I said, I believe works and grace go hand in hand. If you are humble and compassionate, then you will find the LORD or he will find you. And yes, I even think this is possible after death.

Oh, and on a side note: I do think the LORDs existence is self evident. I don't see how an Eskimo would know that the LORD came to earth in Israel, was named Jesus Christ and know exactly what he taught - but even the Eskimo would feel his love and be compelled to be compassionate and humble.

Sorry for the confusion about the lying part, I only saw the thing in which it said that an evangelical would never lie. I forgot about the previous, so that is my fault.

But the point still stands that religious people do in fact lie.

I'm sorry if I seemed as though I was enraged. You are entitled to your opinion very much - I just sometimes get the feeling that Christian views are mocked when they use a similar logic.

And yes, religious individuals do lie. God will call that sin and hold them accountable. I've lied too many times to count in my life.
 
Upvote 0

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic

Don't worry about it.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Two plus two is 'four', because that is the name of that digit. If we called it 'five' it would be five.

The bible is God revealing himself to the descendants of Israel. The Koran was written to the Arabic peoples. Those who believe and understand the bible are those to whom the bible was intended. It was not intended for unbelievers (who are free to comment on it however). The Koran was written for a troubled and violent people, and is understood by them as such. "East is east"..... and so forth.
 
Upvote 0

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic

The Bible was written by people. The Qur'an was written by people. Both religions have had violence in their past. Both religions have made mistakes.

Arrogance, I am pretty sure, is something that the Bible talks against.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,977
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,005,242.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
 
Upvote 0

Syd the Human

Let it go
Mar 27, 2014
405
6
✟23,185.00
Faith
Agnostic
 
Upvote 0

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,792
✟254,941.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
About the lying argument: i think that's silly. It's pretty obvious for me that both christians and muslims believe what they say. Both today as at the dawn of their respective religions. To death even. Literally.

But, off course, what people believe s irrelevant. Beliefs can be wrong. And idd, at least one of these religions is necessarily wrong. I say that most likely, all are wrong.

Don't have time to address the rest in detail now.

Plus, i'm kinda drunk. And high. Lol

Just came back from a great spring equinox party
 
Upvote 0