Why the Attempt to Ban the Latin Mass Is Failing

[Michie]

The inability to shut down the traditional Latin Mass reflects the different between power and authority in the papacy.

There has been much chatter on the interwebs lately about possible further restrictions being imposed upon the celebration of the classical Roman Rite, or the Traditional Latin Mass, as it is often called. However, it appears that such rumors are not going to materialize for now, even as the Vatican liturgical office devises new ways to express its contempt for those who attend celebrations of the TLM, in addition to the continued banning of such celebrations in cathedrals and parishes.

Having said that, it does appear that the push to excise the older Mass from the body of the Church might be running out of steam. Recently, Larry Chapp, a conservative Catholic who is not necessarily a fan of the TLM, wrote an article for the National Catholic Registerclaiming the effect of Traditionis Custodeswas to deepen divisions in the Church. Perhaps more surprisingly, two writers for the more liberal Catholic La Croix have penned separate articles claiming the restrictions imposed by Traditionis Custodes have actually sparked interest among young Catholics, having a sort of Streisand effect on the situation. There is still more the Vatican could do to clamp down on the old liturgy, but as I write these words, the Vatican seems to be in a holding pattern.

Continued below.

Why the Attempt to Ban the Latin Mass Is Failing

The inability to shut down the traditional Latin Mass reflects the different between power and authority in the papacy.

crisismagazine.com

 

[RileyG]

I doubt it will ever be fully banned. Just my opinion.

 

[Wolseley]

Following the links in the article, I came across this snippet, which filled me with mirth, because it's so true:

The Mass of the Ages (the TLM), as devotees call it, offers a numinous and intimate experience to a generation who are repelled by services in which ageing “empowered laity” lead them in “contemporary worship” that, in the worst cases, resembles a cross between a 1970s game show and a campus protest.

Will Pope Francis kill the Latin Mass?

unherd.com

 

[The Liturgist]

I visited the old downtown Chapel of the church of St. Mary Magdalene in Camarillo, CA, for their Tridentine mass on Pentecost and it was packed. The priest was a Norbertine canon regular from a nearby Norbertine equivalent to a monastery I had not even heard of, which celebrates the traditional Latin mass according to the Norbertine use, which I thought was extinct (likewise a few years ago I thought the Carmelite use was basically extinct, but then a traditional Carmelite monastery opened in Wyoming).

 

[RileyG]

I visited the old downtown Chapel of the church of St. Mary Magdalene in Camarillo, CA, for their Tridentine mass on Pentecost and it was packed. The priest was a Norbertine canon regular from a nearby Norbertine equivalent to a monastery I had not even heard of, which celebrates the traditional Latin mass according to the Norbertine use, which I thought was extinct (likewise a few years ago I thought the Carmelite use was basically extinct, but then a traditional Carmelite monastery opened in Wyoming).

Hope you join the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church one day, brother! Happy to hear that parish was packed! LOVE the old rite

 

[RileyG]

Following the links in the article, I came across this snippet, which filled me with mirth, because it's so true:

The Mass of the Ages (the TLM), as devotees call it, offers a numinous and intimate experience to a generation who are repelled by services in which ageing “empowered laity” lead them in “contemporary worship” that, in the worst cases, resembles a cross between a 1970s game show and a campus protest.

Will Pope Francis kill the Latin Mass?

unherd.com

It will never be killed. It's the Mass of the Ages.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It isn't failing because there was never an attempt to shut down the TLM completely.

All Pope Francis did was return the authority of when and where the TLM could be celebrated
to the Bishops.

We still have the TLM here in my dioceses and in fact, the Bishop praises the religious order that
hosts it at their monastery which is open to the public.

 

[fide]

It isn't failing because there was never an attempt to shut down the TLM completely.

All Pope Francis did was return the authority of when and where the TLM could be celebrated
to the Bishops.

We still have the TLM here in my dioceses and in fact, the Bishop praises the religious order that
hosts it at their monastery which is open to the public.

Is this America news "fake news" then?

Pope Francis has unequivocally confirmed that bishops must obtain authorization from the Holy See before granting permission to celebrate the pre-Vatican II Mass in parish churches and before allowing priests ordained after July 16, 2021, to use the 1962 Roman Missal. The latest instruction also makes clear that bishops cannot take the law into their own hands and interpret in a different way the restrictions on the Latin Mass issued by the pope in 2021.

The rescript was published today, Feb. 21, following an audience that Pope Francis granted on Feb. 20 to Cardinal Arthur Roche, the prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, who signed the rescript.

In July 2021, Pope Francis promulgated his apostolic letter “Traditionis Custodes” (“Guardians of the Tradition”), declaring only the liturgical books promulgated after the Second Vatican Council to be “the unique expression of the ‘lex orandi’ (law of worship) of the Roman Rite,” restoring the obligation of priests to have their bishops’ permission to celebrate according to the “extraordinary” or pre-Vatican II Mass and ordering bishops not to establish any new groups or parishes in their dioceses devoted to the former liturgy.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Is this America news "fake news" then?

Is this America news "fake news" then?

Again, it's up to the Bishop to get the permission for the extraordinary format to be used.
FYI, the ordinary since Vatican II has been the Novus Ordo and is still the ordinary format
to be used in all the parishes unless permission to use another format is approved by the
Bishop.

Pope Benedict XVI took away the authority from the bishops and placed a mandate on them
to have a TLM if requested by the laity in a parish.

Pope Francis merely returned the authority to the Bishops. As I stated, we have the TLM in
my dioceses and we used to have it in the local parish until the priest who celebrated it, was
transferred to another parish, as he himself requested.

 

[fide]

Again, it's up to the Bishop to get the permission for the extraordinary format to be used.
FYI, the ordinary since Vatican II has been the Novus Ordo and is still the ordinary format
to be used in all the parishes unless permission to use another format is approved by the
Bishop.

Pope Benedict XVI took away the authority from the bishops and placed a mandate on them
to have a TLM if requested by the laity in a parish.

Pope Francis merely returned the authority to the Bishops. As I stated, we have the TLM in
my dioceses and we used to have it in the local parish until the priest who celebrated it, was
transferred to another parish, as he himself requested.

I won't repeat what I sent to you, which you must have overlooked, concerning the word "permission." The authority rests not on the Bishop if he must get permission from the actual authority.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I won't repeat what I sent to you, which you must have overlooked, concerning the word "permission." The authority rests not on the Bishop if he must get permission from the actual authority.

But it's still the Bishop requesting it, which he will usually get.

Before Pope Francis, it was merely the laity who request the TLM which
mandated that the Bishop comply. Parishes suffered the consequence of
such a decision.

 

[fide]

But it's still the Bishop requesting it, which he will usually get.

Before Pope Francis, it was merely the laity who request the TLM which
mandated that the Bishop comply. Parishes suffered the consequence of
such a decision.

"Usually"? Is a right "usually" respected? A right is a right. When it is dependent on "permission" of a superior it is not a right respected, it is a privilege granted or withheld by a higher authority. In this case, the pope, following his own personal desire. motu proprio

 

[Wolseley]

But it's still the Bishop requesting it, which he will usually get.

Before Pope Francis, it was merely the laity who request the TLM which
mandated that the Bishop comply. Parishes suffered the consequence of
such a decision.

WIll he?

Judging from Francis' actions towards conservative pastors and prelates, I wonder about that. He seems to be on a vendetta to bring 1972 back around again.

"Forget about all that catechism stuff, kids---nobody does that any more. Just remember that God is your buddy, and you're fine. Hey, get out some felt---let's all make a banner!"

 

[Erose]

IMO if it's use was going to be banned, it should have happened with the issuing of Pauline missal; but for whatever reason this didn't happen. What also didn't happen is the bishops exercising better control over their priests when it came to following the rubrics for the new missal. For whatever reason, Episcopal leadership took a nosedive after Vat II, when it should have been at its highest. Most of the issues the Church is dealing with today is the result of the total lack of Episcopal leadership.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

"Usually"? Is a right "usually" respected? A right is a right. When it is dependent on "permission" of a superior it is not a right respected, it is a privilege granted or withheld by a higher authority. In this case, the pope, following his own personal desire. motu proprio

The format used to celebrate the Mass, is not a right. The Church defines the ordinary format to be used in the
Universal Church and since Vatican II it's become the Novus Ordo. The Church will not make the TLM the ordinary
because of pressure from a minority of Catholics.

The Extra-Ordinary, the TLM, can be used in parishes with permission from the Bishop and the Vatican. FYI, the Bishop
doesn't have authority over religious orders not in diocesan parishes. Those religious orders, like the Discalced Carmelites,
are under the authority of their general provincial who is in Rome and is under the authority of the Pope.

I'm Discalced Carmelite, Secular, OCDS.

 

[Gnarwhal]

The inability to shut down the traditional Latin Mass reflects the different between power and authority in the papacy.

There has been much chatter on the interwebs lately about possible further restrictions being imposed upon the celebration of the classical Roman Rite, or the Traditional Latin Mass, as it is often called. However, it appears that such rumors are not going to materialize for now, even as the Vatican liturgical office devises new ways to express its contempt for those who attend celebrations of the TLM, in addition to the continued banning of such celebrations in cathedrals and parishes.

Having said that, it does appear that the push to excise the older Mass from the body of the Church might be running out of steam. Recently, Larry Chapp, a conservative Catholic who is not necessarily a fan of the TLM, wrote an article for the National Catholic Registerclaiming the effect of Traditionis Custodeswas to deepen divisions in the Church. Perhaps more surprisingly, two writers for the more liberal Catholic La Croix have penned separate articles claiming the restrictions imposed by Traditionis Custodes have actually sparked interest among young Catholics, having a sort of Streisand effect on the situation. There is still more the Vatican could do to clamp down on the old liturgy, but as I write these words, the Vatican seems to be in a holding pattern.

Continued below.

Why the Attempt to Ban the Latin Mass Is Failing

The inability to shut down the traditional Latin Mass reflects the different between power and authority in the papacy.

crisismagazine.com

When I read the title of the thread I was gonna come in and say "Pope Francis found out about the Streisand Effect"...and lo and behold the OP beat me to it, heh.

I doubt it will ever be fully banned. Just my opinion.

I've heard countless people say they'd go SSPX if it was. I couldn't go that far but I hold on to hope that the pendulum will swing the other direction with the next Pope, or maybe the one after him. The bottom line is the Age of Aquarius generation will die, and when they do the new Mass will die with them. And I'm saying that as someone who exclusively attends the new Mass (not by choice, but there's no alternatives within 100 miles).

I visited the old downtown Chapel of the church of St. Mary Magdalene in Camarillo, CA, for their Tridentine mass on Pentecost and it was packed. The priest was a Norbertine canon regular from a nearby Norbertine equivalent to a monastery I had not even heard of, which celebrates the traditional Latin mass according to the Norbertine use, which I thought was extinct (likewise a few years ago I thought the Carmelite use was basically extinct, but then a traditional Carmelite monastery opened in Wyoming).

I'm familiar with Camarillo, my mom's from Ventura. The Norbertine monastery you mention must be St Michael's Abbey in Silverado. If you feel like a bit of a road trip you should go check out their Mass for Michaelmas coming up on September 29. There's a unique thing that happens with the way the sunlight hits the rose window on Michaelmas every year and it's staggering.

 

[fide]

The format used to celebrate the Mass, is not a right. The Church defines the ordinary format to be used in the
Universal Church and since Vatican II it's become the Novus Ordo. The Church will not make the TLM the ordinary
because of pressure from a minority of Catholics.

The Extra-Ordinary, the TLM, can be used in parishes with permission from the Bishop and the Vatican. FYI, the Bishop
doesn't have authority over religious orders not in diocesan parishes. Those religious orders, like the Discalced Carmelites,
are under the authority of their general provincial who is in Rome and is under the authority of the Pope.

I'm Discalced Carmelite, Secular, OCDS.

Thanks be to God He does not take a poll to decide what rite is best according to HIs will. Jesus told us what He seeks: those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. And He did not mean,"in the spirit of this world" and "in the truth as decided by the pope." Those having ears to hear, do hear.

 

[The Liturgist]

When I read the title of the thread I was gonna come in and say "Pope Francis found out about the Streisand Effect"...and lo and behold the OP beat me to it, heh.

I've heard countless people say they'd go SSPX if it was. I couldn't go that far but I hold on to hope that the pendulum will swing the other direction with the next Pope, or maybe the one after him. The bottom line is the Age of Aquarius generation will die, and when they do the new Mass will die with them. And I'm saying that as someone who exclusively attends the new Mass (not by choice, but there's no alternatives within 100 miles).

I'm familiar with Camarillo, my mom's from Ventura. The Norbertine monastery you mention must be St Michael's Abbey in Silverado. If you feel like a bit of a road trip you should go check out their Mass for Michaelmas coming up on September 29. There's a unique thing that happens with the way the sunlight hits the rose window on Michaelmas every year and it's staggering.

Indeed it was St. Michael’s. I hadn’t realized that Norbertines had monasteries, since my recollection is that they are canons regular, but I don’t mind. If i am in town for Michaelmas I will definitely go there as that sounds lovely.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thanks be to God He does not take a poll to decide what rite is best according to HIs will. Jesus told us what He seeks: those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. And He did not mean,"in the spirit of this world" and "in the truth as decided by the pope." Those having ears to hear, do hear.

Jesus did place the Church in authority.

You reject that authority, which is your choice, but it goes against the will of Christ.

 

[fide]

Jesus did place the Church in authority.

You reject that authority, which is your choice, but it goes against the will of Christ.

Love cannot be grasped, except through God.