Why the Apostles Would Have Flunked Out of Protestant Seminary

Michie

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‘Let your light so shine before men,’ says Our Lord, ‘that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.’

A Protestant with whom I was debating claimed that Jesus never mentioned meritorious good works in relation to salvation, but only faith. But this is simply false, and rather spectacularly so. In his discourse at the Last Supper, Jesus spoke the following words to his disciples, who were presumably saved (excepting Judas):

  • “He who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.” (John 14:12)
  • “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)
  • “He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (John 14:21) — Here, the questions of who loves Jesus, and even the indwelling (cf. 16:7, 13) are dependent upon not just faith, but on whether one keeps the commandments.
  • “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. ... By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.” (John 15:4-6, 8) — “Fruit” is, of course, good works.
  • “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love ... [note the conditional, implying a state of affairs where they could cease abiding in his love, and being justified and eschatologically saved. Judas was, in fact, an example of this happening.” (John 15:10; see 17:12) — Jesus alluded to such a possibility also when he said, “I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away.” (16:1)
  • “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.” (John 15:12)
  • “You are my friends if you do what I command you.” (John 15:14)
  • “This I command you, to love one another.” (John 15:17)
  • To be sure, in the same discourse, Jesus also said “believe also in me” (14:1; cf. 16:27, 30-31; 17:8), but 11 verses later, he coupled this belief with inexorable good works: “he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father” (14:12). Moreover, Jesus, in praying to the Father at the Last Supper, says, “they have kept thy word” (17:6).
My well-intentioned but mistaken Protestant debate opponent also misinterpreted the exchange Jesus had with the rich young ruler, claiming that Jesus was rebuking the notion that good works could play a key role in salvation. This is the very opposite of what the passage teaches. Asked by the rich young ruler how he could attain eternal life — a question precisely relevant to the Catholic-Protestant debate on soteriology — Jesus’ answer was two kinds of works: one should keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) and in his particular case, he was required to give all his money to the poor (Matthew 19:21). Jesus said not a word about faith, let alone “faith alone.” This was how he would be saved; it’s clear as day!

Continued below.
 

WarriorAngel

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‘Let your light so shine before men,’ says Our Lord, ‘that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.’

A Protestant with whom I was debating claimed that Jesus never mentioned meritorious good works in relation to salvation, but only faith. But this is simply false, and rather spectacularly so. In his discourse at the Last Supper, Jesus spoke the following words to his disciples, who were presumably saved (excepting Judas):

  • “He who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.” (John 14:12)
  • “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)
  • “He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (John 14:21) — Here, the questions of who loves Jesus, and even the indwelling (cf. 16:7, 13) are dependent upon not just faith, but on whether one keeps the commandments.
  • “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. ... By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.” (John 15:4-6, 8) — “Fruit” is, of course, good works.
  • “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love ... [note the conditional, implying a state of affairs where they could cease abiding in his love, and being justified and eschatologically saved. Judas was, in fact, an example of this happening.” (John 15:10; see 17:12) — Jesus alluded to such a possibility also when he said, “I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away.” (16:1)
  • “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.” (John 15:12)
  • “You are my friends if you do what I command you.” (John 15:14)
  • “This I command you, to love one another.” (John 15:17)
  • To be sure, in the same discourse, Jesus also said “believe also in me” (14:1; cf. 16:27, 30-31; 17:8), but 11 verses later, he coupled this belief with inexorable good works: “he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father” (14:12). Moreover, Jesus, in praying to the Father at the Last Supper, says, “they have kept thy word” (17:6).
My well-intentioned but mistaken Protestant debate opponent also misinterpreted the exchange Jesus had with the rich young ruler, claiming that Jesus was rebuking the notion that good works could play a key role in salvation. This is the very opposite of what the passage teaches. Asked by the rich young ruler how he could attain eternal life — a question precisely relevant to the Catholic-Protestant debate on soteriology — Jesus’ answer was two kinds of works: one should keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) and in his particular case, he was required to give all his money to the poor (Matthew 19:21). Jesus said not a word about faith, let alone “faith alone.” This was how he would be saved; it’s clear as day!

Continued below.
I will read more when I have time.
 
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WarriorAngel

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The Apostles would've also flunked out of Catholic Seminaries too.

One, they would've rejected mandated celibacy.
Nah, they would have always followed even the chair of Peter
 
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WarriorAngel

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They all died before the chair of Peter was accepted.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Jesus established it.
And Im not combing through the NT and so forth to show how they revered Peter as leader.
I can tell you the 1st Christians had pictorial of Peter with the keys on a chair next to Moses on a chair on their tombs [catacombs]
Well, Peter for sure. I saw the pics 20 years ago.

Early Church fathers giving the lineage of the Chair of Peter [as record was kept] from the beginning. St Ireneas [Sp?] gave record in 170ish and two others before him earlier still.
Because the Apostles kept notice of the CHAIR of Peter as his line was properly called as Jesus called the authority of Moses his chair of the Jews.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Jesus established it.
And Im not combing through the NT and so forth to show how they revered Peter as leader.
I can tell you the 1st Christians had pictorial of Peter with the keys on a chair next to Moses on a chair on their tombs [catacombs]
Well, Peter for sure. I saw the pics 20 years ago.

Early Church fathers giving the lineage of the Chair of Peter [as record was kept] from the beginning. St Ireneas [Sp?] gave record in 170ish and two others before him earlier still.
Because the Apostles kept notice of the CHAIR of Peter as his line was properly called as Jesus called the authority of Moses his chair of the Jews.
Jesus established the church and made Peter to head it, but it took time to develop, as the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch
wrote.

The Chair of Peter wasn't a title until much later.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Jesus established the church and made Peter to head it, but it took time to develop, as the writings of St Ignatius of Antioch
wrote.

The Chair of Peter wasn't a title until much later.
Jesus said: Chair of Moses.
Jesus is the Almighty.
The chair was a traditional understanding.
The keys meant authority. A chair meant authority and succession.
It's the language of the Jews.
I'm just passing on my lay ecclesiastical studies.
And I do not have time to pursue the quotes of the fathers.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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And when it was, it was located in Antioch.
At first, but quickly moved to Rome where Peter was.

Ignatius of Antioch, who was the first Bishop there, wrote about Rome being where
Peter and Paul were, and the chair of St Peter is where Peter was, Rome.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Jesus said: Chair of Moses.
Jesus is the Almighty.
The chair was a traditional understanding.
The keys meant authority. A chair meant authority and succession.
It's the language of the Jews.
I'm just passing on my lay ecclesiastical studies.
And I do not have time to pursue the quotes of the fathers.
Jesus describes them as sitting "on Moses' seat." Some scholars suggest Jesus is referring to a literal chair occupied by religious leaders while teaching. More likely, Jesus is speaking of the authority given to the scribes and Pharisees by God, as it was given to Moses.

Matthew 23:2​


Not the Chair of Peter, which wasn't understood until Peter had gone to Rome and died there.
 
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