Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

dogar · Mar 21, 2009

I used to be very religious, charismatic church bah blah blah, but I was having feelings towards members of the same sex, not to women. I was becoming more and more religious and church involved and as this happened so did the feelings of self loathing, which ultimately led to what nearly was my suicide. I couldn't stand it any longer and left the church and 'came out'. Since then I have felt much better about myself and my life and no longer feel 'the unnatural one'.

Surely, if after much prayer and so on I still have these feelings towards members of the same sex, then God must have intended to be gay. However if this is true why does the church take such a stand against homosexuality and not do what all Christians should - judge. (and the hate the sin, love the sinner isn't appropriate, because if it were a sin, surely prayer would remove it).

So my question is this: Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

BigBadWlf · Mar 21, 2009

Because gays and lesbians are one of the last minorities where advocating hatred and discrimination are acceptable.

It will continue as long as society says that bigotry is an OK thing

Autumnleaf · Mar 21, 2009

Ask God, its his policy.

Wiccan_Child · Mar 21, 2009

Autumnleaf said:
Ask God, its his policy.

Why does God say "Gays are bad" to some people, but "Gays are OK" to others? The same seems to apply to any ethical, political, or even sporting* dilemma.

*I was watching the rugby today, and I saw an Irishman cross himself and offer a quick prayer to God. I was nonplussed .

KCKID · Mar 21, 2009

dogar said:
I used to be very religious, charismatic church bah blah blah, but I was having feelings towards members of the same sex, not to women. I was becoming more and more religious and church involved and as this happened so did the feelings of self loathing, which ultimately led to what nearly was my suicide. I couldn't stand it any longer and left the church and 'came out'. Since then I have felt much better about myself and my life and no longer feel 'the unnatural one'.

Surely, if after much prayer and so on I still have these feelings towards members of the same sex, then God must have intended to be gay. However if this is true why does the church take such a stand against homosexuality and not do what all Christians should - judge. (and the hate the sin, love the sinner isn't appropriate, because if it were a sin, surely prayer would remove it).

So my question is this: Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

Why? People are so easily led/influenced by 'authority figures' such as the pastor of their church/the media/politicians/popular opinion, etc. etc. that they take the thoughts and beliefs of others on board as if their own. This is very much what has occurred within Christianity in ALL areas ...not just homosexuality. The majority of Christians would not have a clue where the so-called 'homosexual condemning' texts in the Bible are to be found. Ask any random Christian and you'll soon discover their ignorance as to where such scriptures are to be found. They just know from continued 'brainwashing' on this issue that it's there in the Bible somewhere.

Also, of course, since the majority of people are heterosexual (many of whom either fight, or give in to, the temptation of jumping into bed with just about any member of the opposite sex) the idea of homosexuality might be rather off-putting for them. And, it's mainly the latter ones who scream the loudest and wave their Bibles around with such zeal even though they really would not care what God thinks about homosexuality. THEY don't like homosexuality so therefore GOD doesn't like homosexuality.

While I'm not 'gay' myself I do find myself coming out in defence of people whose only 'sin' is a homosexual orientation. In fact, Christians who behave so militantly against homosexuality sicken me. As I've mentioned previously, I have a good friend who struggled with this issue for years. Like you, he prayed for God to 'heal' him and it never happened. Eventually, both he and I determined by pure logic that God accepts him just as he is. In any event, I'll stand by him forever if I need to.

It's only in recent times that I've taken an interest in Christians such as Bishop John Shelby Spong who all but destroys some of the myths of Christianity ...including God's 'hating' homosexuals. I don't know that I'm allowed to provide a link on this forum (the 'likes of' Spong are not unnaturally regarded with suspicion by mainstream Christianity!) but I would suggest that you google YouTube and seek out for yourself some of the videos of John Shelby Spong. After 20 years of having accepted Jesus into my life I believe that I'm now hearing 'the truth' for the very first time.

KCKID · Mar 21, 2009

Autumnleaf said:
Ask God, its his policy.

Absolutely untrue!

It's such a response that sickens me.

Autumnleaf · Mar 21, 2009

KCKID said:
Absolutely untrue!

It's such a response that sickens me.

Does the Bible have it all wrong?

Washington · Mar 21, 2009

KCKID said:
Autumnleaf said:

Ask God, its his policy.

Click to expand...

Absolutely untrue!

Gotta side with Autumnleaf on this one.

Lev.18:1,22,29-30

1 The LORD said to Moses,

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable thingssuch persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Autumnleaf · Mar 21, 2009

Wiccan_Child said:
Why does God say "Gays are bad" to some people, but "Gays are OK" to others? The same seems to apply to any ethical, political, or even sporting* dilemma.

*I was watching the rugby today, and I saw an Irishman cross himself and offer a quick prayer to God. I was nonplussed .

People can say God tells them anything. The objective direction from God is generally found in religious texts which have stood the test of time.

BigBadWlf · Mar 21, 2009

Washington said:
Gotta side with Autumnleaf on this one.

Lev.18:1,22,29-30

1 The LORD said to Moses,

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable thingssuch persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Do you follow all the laws of Leviticus?

I doubt it
Do you cut your hair?
Wear clothing made of different fabrics?
Allow people with glasses to attend your church?
Keep slaves?
Eat shellfish?

It is interesting how those who dont follow the laws of Leviticus are so willing to inflict cherry picked verses out of this book to attack a minority and defend prejudice and discrimination.

Even though you personally do not follow the many laws of Leviticus yet you do not seem to have a problem using Leviticus laws to attack a minority. Why?

Using Leviticus to justify prejudice and discrimination has many issues

First we live under a new covenant. Jesus did away with the law and put in place his commandment
A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. John 13:34

Promoting or justifying discrimination against a minority is not loving. And no matter how one tries to twist the justification it is an act of hate.

If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:20

A further problem is one of translation. Leviticus has many injunctions against engaging in sex specifically carnal knowledge. However carnal knowledge is not used in either Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 the word that is used is shakab. It is popularly translated to mean to lay (lie) with but there is a problem with that translation. Shakab is used 52 times in the old testament and is always used to a sexual encounter typified by deceit or force, in other words, some type of rape.

Shakab Means "Rape" not copulation, not carnal relationsrape.

Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 means that a man shall not force, or in any way coerce, another man to have sex, in the way that a man is allowed to force sex upon his wife. In other words, man is not allowed to rape a man, it is an abomination.
A man raping a man is no more a description of homosexuality than a man raping a woman is a description of heterosexuality.

KCKID · Mar 21, 2009

Washington said:
Gotta side with Autumnleaf on this one.

Lev.18:1,22,29-30

1 The LORD said to Moses,

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable thingssuch persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Wow, I hadn't heard that one before. Oh, that's right ...yeah, that scripture is found right beside the command to stone to death your disobedient child. Come to think of it, there are all kinds of commands that incur the death penalty.

Whoops ...sorry.

Washington · Mar 21, 2009

KCKID said:
Wow, I hadn't heard that one before. Oh, that's right ...yeah, that scripture is found right beside the command to stone to death your disobedient child. Come to think of it, there are all kinds of commands that incur the death penalty.

Whoops ...sorry.

So it's kind of pick-and-choose the laws/instructions of god you're going to recognize, with you. Gotcha!

Chazemataz · Mar 21, 2009

Washington said:
So it's kind of pick-and-choose the laws/instructions of god you're going to recognize, with you. Gotcha!

Or maybe with him it's the fact that he's a Christian and therefore doesn't follow the Old Testement laws that Christ died to get rid of.

Christ said nothing about homosexuality; in fact, the closest thing was when He was asked about "eunichs" and he condemned those who said they were in sin for not having a desire to marry women.

He did say "Love thy neighbor" and "I am the Lord thy God" are the most important commandments above all else, though. Just FYI.

Washington · Mar 21, 2009

Chazemataz said:
Or maybe with him it's the fact that he's a Christian and therefore doesn't follow the Old Testement laws that Christ died to get rid of.

Christ said nothing about homosexuality; in fact, the closest thing was when He was asked about "eunichs" and he condemned those who said they were in sin for not having a desire to marry women.

He did say "Love thy neighbor" and "I am the Lord thy God" are the most important commandments above all else, though. Just FYI.

This is also for BigBadWLF

KCKID was responding to Autumanleaf's remark that it was "god's policy [to take such a stand against homosexuality]"

KCKID said "Absolutely untrue!" To which I pointed out a passage in the Bible that contradicted his claim that it was not his policy. Now, what some Christian wants to do with that is up to them, but the fact remains it was god's policy.

KCKID · Mar 21, 2009

Washington said:
This is also for BigBadWLF

KCKID was responding to Autumanleaf's remark that it was "god's policy [to take such a stand against homosexuality]"

KCKID said "Absolutely untrue!" To which I pointed out a passage in the Bible that contradicted his claim that it was not his policy. Now, what some Christian wants to do with that is up to them, but the fact remains it was god's policy.

In actuality it was the author of those scriptures who was setting out what he states were God's policies.

I have a problem believing that God entrusted human beings to set out what His policies were/are. How can an imperfect human being claim to speak/write for a being that is perfect? If God had the intention of carving the Ten Commandments into stone with His finger in order to validate them than why didn't He give the scriptures the same personal touch?

Questions, questions . . .

Washington · Mar 21, 2009

KCKID said:
In actuality it was the author of those scriptures who was setting out what he states were God's policies.

I have a problem believing that God entrusted human beings to set out what His policies were/are. How can an imperfect human being claim to speak/write for a being that is perfect? If God had the intention of carving the Ten Commandments into stone with His finger in order to validate them than why didn't He give the scriptures the same personal touch?

Questions, questions . . .

Hey, I have no problem if you don't want to believe what's written in the Bible, but I figured that being a Christian you pretty much believed everything in it, particularly what has been attributed to your god. But if you have some method of picking and choosing what deserves to be believed and what shouldn't be, more power to you, I guess. I'm sure other Christians here would like to know how you decide such things.

BigBadWlf · Mar 21, 2009

Washington said:
This is also for BigBadWLF

KCKID was responding to Autumanleaf's remark that it was "god's policy [to take such a stand against homosexuality]"

KCKID said "Absolutely untrue!" To which I pointed out a passage in the Bible that contradicted his claim that it was not his policy. Now, what some Christian wants to do with that is up to them, but the fact remains it was god's policy.

And the passage you pointed out is right next to the passage that details the situations where it is perfectly moral to kill your own children

And also contained in that chapter are Gods policies about slavery and eating shellfish and cutting your hair, and shaving, and stalking to a woman during her period, and forbidding people with glasses to come into church, and wearing poly-cotton blends and so on and so on and so on

BigBadWlf · Mar 21, 2009

Washington said:
Hey, I have no problem if you don't want to believe what's written in the Bible, but I figured that being a Christian you pretty much believed everything in it, particularly what has been attributed to your god. But if you have some method of picking and choosing what deserves to be believed and what shouldn't be, more power to you, I guess. I'm sure other Christians here would like to know how you decide such things.

I think you should be asking Autumnleaf this

Washington · Mar 21, 2009

BigBadWlf said:
And the passage you pointed out is right next to the passage that details the situations where it is perfectly moral to kill your own children

And also contained in that chapter are Gods policies about slavery and eating shellfish and cutting your hair, and shaving, and stalking to a woman during her period, and forbidding people with glasses to come into church, and wearing poly-cotton blends and so on and so on and so on

And your point is??????????????????????????????

I think you should be asking Autumnleaf this.

Ask what? I don't recall asking a question in the material you quote.

psalm1:3 · Mar 21, 2009

You have to understand that God didn't make you gay. He did not mean for you to be gay? The sinner who feels the urge to steal, or to fornicate, or to lie and cheat, they cannot give the excuse to their problem by just simply saying that perhaps God made them that way.

He did not intend for us to be sinners, but we are. We all have the urge to sin, it is in our nature. But this is the exact reason why Jesus came. To save us from that. If we will abide in him, we will be saved.

You are not gay; you are a sinner. Plain and simple. But God loves you. He knows the desires of your heart, and he wants to show how you can be perfected through him.

There is something more powerful and magical being in a relationship with the opposite sex rather than simply fulfilling the desires of your heart.

It is different. You feel more connected with God. Because this relationship that he meant for you is blessed.

Don't be discouraged. These feelings will pass if you endure with faith in God. If you continue in these acts, it will only bring you misery. Satan may have given you the feeling that you are powerful and free now, but what you don't understand is that you are in his grasp. He has power and control over you, and you are exactly where he wants you.

Take Jesus' hand. He wants to show great things. He wants to see you "come out" of the things of this earth, and make you truly free. To conquer over it.

Trust in him. He will never abandon you. Psalm 16:10

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