Why take Christ as God?

[icbal]

This is a question to the Christians of this board.

For what reasons, of what the Christ said, do you take him to either be the third member of God, or Gods son?

Please quote scipture with your answers.

I wish to know why it is over a billion people around the world believe one of these two things or both.

I myself, having read the bible and believe it, cannot take that stand point.

 

[coyoteBR]

Icbalm first, welcome to CF.

Now, to answer your question:
Some may quote the Gospel of John, oddly the only place where Jesus Takes some time to Talk about Himself theologically.
Some may mention the church meeting in the year 300, where divinity of Jesus was voted.
Anyway, this is a subject where not every christian agree, and the discussion tends to go off-hand from times to times, sadly.

Let's say, in the end, it is a matter of faith.
In the end, God or no God, us christians try and follow His examples and teachings.
In the end, God or no God, it not makes Him less Worthy.

Peace.

 

[arunma]

Actually, the Christian Forums rules gives a copy of the Nicene Creed with Scripture references. Here it is:

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2: 5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4: 5; Acts 2: 38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11: 24; 1 Corinthians 15: 12-49; Hebrews 6: 2; Revelation 20: 5)
and the life in the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)

AMEN. (Psalm 106: 48)

The funny thing about the Trinity is that it isn't the most obvious doctrine. Now let me be clear in saying this much: the divinity of Jesus is clear. We have examples of people praying to Jesus, of Jesus being called the equal of God the Father, and of people worshiping Jesus. The Deity of Jesus is pretty obvious from Scripture. The question, then, is Jesus' relationship to the Father. Is Jesus the same thing as the Father? Or is he completely separate? To answer these questions, one has to delve deeper into Scripture. And that's how the early church got Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[icbal]

Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 3: 16)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)

These are the points of the nicene creed that answer my question.

Matthew 14:26-33
26. When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. "Its a ghost," they said, and cried out in fear.
27. But Jesus immediately said to them: "Take courage! It is I. Dont be afraid."
28. "Lord, if it is you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
29. "Come," he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came towards Jesus.
30. But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, biginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31. Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
32. And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down.
33. Those who were in the boat worshipped him, saying, "Truely you are the son of God."

But Jesus said,

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Jesus has immense faith.
What Jesus says is what is important.

-----

Matthew 16:15-17
15. "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the son of the Living God."
17. Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

But...

Matthew 16:20
Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone he was the Messiah.

The point is Jesus' kingship. Being a son of God is not regarded as important as the kingship in these verses.
What Jesus says is what is important.

-----

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave His one and only son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This is not Jesus speaking, but John.
Jesus had just spent time in verses 13 and 14 telling us he was the Son of Man. Just as in the other 3 gospels he titles himself explicitly as the Son of Man.
John 3:16 is also later negated by John 20:17

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus tells us clearly in this statement, that his Father is our Father. God fathered all, because ALL came from Him.
That the one to which we pray, is not Jesus, but Jesus' God.

-----

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

This can so easily taken to mean, and has been, that Jesus and God are infact one and the same being.
But Jesus explains this statement later when he prays to God.
(Why God would pray to Himself is beyond me)

John 17:20-23
20. "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21. that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22. I have gieven them the glory that You gave me, they they may be one as we are one:
23. I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Its all in that last half sentence.
Its all about Love.
Loving God. Loving eachother.
Just as a mans and a womans love makes them one.

-----

John 6:33, 35
33. "For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
35. Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty."

These verses are not any kind of statement that Jesus came from heaven, but are a poem. The bread of heaven isn't Jesus himself, but the message - the Grace, that he alone carries. The Grace, in which we believe, is what deems for us eternal life. This is explained earlier in John 6:27.

John 6:27
"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed His seal of approval."

Its also a parable for the teachings of other faiths. Food being the reward. When Jesus' disciples equire of what work they must do, Jesus replies "believe in the one he sent."
That doesn't just apply to Jesus, but to all Gods messengers.
If you believe in the messenger He sent, then you take to yourself all of His words.

-----

Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus has spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

But Jesus said,

Mark 10:40
"but to sit at my right or my left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."

To sit at Gods right does not mean he is His successor, or His son, or His heir, but that he -and as Mark 10:40 shows- and the rest of the Prophets are the closest to God and most knowledgable, wise and pious. Just as the highest in the land of Israel was always the Prophet, the closest with God, so the highest in heaven is the closest with God. This is why Jesus is said to be the highest of the prophets.

-----

Matthew 24:27
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

This lightning is mentioned before...

Deuteronomy 33:2
He said:
YHWH came from Sinai;
He shone upon them from Seir;
He appeared from Mount Paran,
And approached from Ribeboth-kodesh,
Lightning flashing at them from His right.

Sinai - where Moses first spoke with God. Seir - the mountain range in which Jesus was born. Paran - the desert in which Muhammad was born.
All are associated with the Lightning, and Gods right side.

-----

Tell me more places in the Gospel where Jesus shows you he is God or His only begotten son.

 

[arunma]

Icbal, the problem is that you're assuming that the Bible isn't correct. For example, with respect to John 3:16, you say that it's John talking, not Jesus. But if you don't assume the accuracy of the Bible, it's not possible to know anything about Jesus.

 

[icbal]

In the orginal Hebrew texts of the Old Testament, there were no spaces, no puntuation, and no vowel points.
In the orginal Greek texts of the New Testament, there was no puntuation.
The reason I doubt Jesus said 3:16, is because Jesus always referred to himself as "Son of Man". He also, 99% of the time, referred to God as "Father".
There are also many translations out there that dont attribute 3:16 onward to Jesus speaking.

Without puntuation in the original texts, it cannot be certain whether it was John or Jesus, just from the writing alone.
You have to use common sense.
And common sense tells you, Jesus would have called God "my Father" as he did many many times before.

My arguments dont assume the bible is inaccurate.
Far from it.
My arguments assume it is precise.

The problem is, my argument does not flow with your understanding, and so you seek to say I assume, when I assume nothing.

 

[arunma]

OK Icbal, I think I understand what you're saying now. But whether the statement is of Jesus or John, John wrote it down. Even if John said it, it is considered to be from the divine inspiration of the Spirit. So I don't see where you're going with that.

 

[Splendor Of My Soul]

REVELATION 1:17-18 Fear not; I am the first and the last:



# The first and the last entails eternity. Continuing on to the next verse



(18) I (am) he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.



# Who is he that died, and was alive again? Jesus. If he is alive forevermore, then he is God, for none but God can claim eternal existence.



HEBREWS 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.



#God alone is unchanging and eternal. Hence Jesus is God.



MATTHEW 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.



# Even as an infant, the magi already worshipped him. And neither Mary nor Joseph objected. If Jesus was a mere man, we can be certain Mary and Joseph would have objected.



REVELATION 4:9-11 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, (10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.



# Who lives forever and ever?



Who has created all things?



If God alone is to be worshipped, this passage clearly indicates Christ accepted worship. Therefore, Christ is God. The fact that angels shouldn’t be worshipped (Rev. 19:10) although Christ can be worshipped means Christ is far higher than the angels.



One more thing



The Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong states in his website that the Greek word for “worship” praskuneia was applied no less than 22 times in the New Testament to refer to worship of the Father, and 14 times in reference to worship of Jesus. This implies Jesus’ equality with the Father, since the same term was used to refer to the worship of both.



Pax Vobiscum



Gerardo

 

[Lyric's Dad]

This is a question to the Christians of this board.

For what reasons, of what the Christ said, do you take him to either be the third member of God, or Gods son?

Please quote scipture with your answers.

I wish to know why it is over a billion people around the world believe one of these two things or both.

I myself, having read the bible and believe it, cannot take that stand point.

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.


God bless.

 

[Forest]

This is a question to the Christians of this board.

For what reasons, of what the Christ said, do you take him to either be the third member of God, or Gods son?

Please quote scipture with your answers.

I wish to know why it is over a billion people around the world believe one of these two things or both.

I myself, having read the bible and believe it, cannot take that stand point.

First read these in context, but If you are looking for what Jesus said...

First God Said to Moses...

Exodus 314 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

Jesus said about himself, to the high priest...

John 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[AryadevA]

I wish to know why it is over a billion people around the world believe one of these two things or both.

Mind control.

 

[godsgirl4ever]

Cause God took a part of himself & made it into jesus which was sent down to earth to fillful one thing = to die for our sins.

 

[Blackmarch]

This is a question to the Christians of this board.

For what reasons, of what the Christ said, do you take him to either be the third member of God, or Gods son?

Please quote scipture with your answers.

I wish to know why it is over a billion people around the world believe one of these two things or both.

I myself, having read the bible and believe it, cannot take that stand point.

God has answered my prayers, and one knows that the Bible and the Book of Mormon to be true... especially the parts recording How God the Father testifies that Jesus is his only begotten Son, and it is through none else that people are saved.

 

[Im_A]

This is a question to the Christians of this board.

For what reasons, of what the Christ said, do you take him to either be the third member of God, or Gods son?

Please quote scipture with your answers.

I wish to know why it is over a billion people around the world believe one of these two things or both.

I myself, having read the bible and believe it, cannot take that stand point.

hello icball. i'm not here to discuss theology with scripture references, so i hope you don't mind me replying to your post. as it was already said, this is a very controversial topic even for Christians. we believe it because it was told to us. plain and simple. we believed the pastor/priest, and went with it. have a few scriptures for proof to prove to use their own interpretation and there we go. this topic cannot be descided upon persuaded upon translation of some Western mindset, when Christianity is an Eastern religion. so if you want answers, i advise to search historically the changes of theology of Christ's Divinity. try to go back all the way before the Niacene Creed. sometimes it seems like modern Christianity started when the Niacene Creed got formed. that's just something i wonder, i am not making a proclamation about that, thus i feel no need or desire to prove a wondering thought.

in the end, all that is important to the Christian faith, to me, is doing the will of the Father. which is, the 2 greatest commandments, "Love thy God with all your heart, mind, soul and love your brother as yourself." Paul mentioned that now we know in part, and we will know more later. i take peace in that. that's why theology is pretty low on my list. i'll be searching it all my life. all i care about when it comes to my faith, is loving God with all my heart, mind and soul and loving my brother as i would love myself. there is only one Jesus of Nazereth, so that old cliched' response that we have to believe in the right Jesus, is junk to me. we all have our own opinions of Jesus's Divinity/Nature. whatever conclusion we come to, takes nothing away from the Passion on the Cross, and from the beautiful/perfect life He lead. if Jesus was solely man, or if He was God on earth. that's in God's hands, and i give that to God, for whether human beings accept whatever belief they prescribe to, it takes nothing away from Jesus Christ.

but if you want clear, cut and dry answers, i believe you need to go back to church history. look back at the change of theology. go back before Christianity was the ruling religion of the world. go back before the Western World infiltrated Christianity, an Eastern Religion. i think you can find more clear cut and dry answers than let's say to ask modern, Christians deep theological questions. because, again, the answers your finding here, i would bet is the same thing your used to finding. rebuttal after rebuttal, and no conclusion, but one side being set on their views, and you being left unanswerd. it takes faith to believe in mystical things of God. if you try to rationalize God's mysteries, then the same thing will happen. unanswered question after question. i say keep the mystical where it is, the mystical attributes of God, and either accept them or don't accept them, and keep the rational attributes of God where it is, the rational attributes of God. trust me, i'm doing the same thing i'm advising you to do, for i have many questions after 11 years of believeing in this religion called Christianity. it's just now the more i search my questions out, the more i am finding a severe distaste for theology as some grand way to coming to peace with God, because it's just ideas that we come to while we know in part of things which shows those thoughts may just be unstable, especially since they have changed so much throughout the whole time after Christ's resurecttion. and if we are going to know full later, then why bicker about what we know in part?

May God Bless you <><