why some pastors seems very lazy ?

[johnnywong]

I notice that some pastors are trying to do the minimum amount of work , very passive and I hope that they can be more active in their calling.

 

[St_Worm2]

How have you "noticed" this?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I notice that some pastors are trying to do the minimum amount of work , very passive and I hope that they can be more active in their calling.

Maybe those pastors, whoever they are, have a busy life away from the pulpit? The pace of life these days is crazy, time as we know it, slows down for nobody. In my honest opinion, it would be perfectly suitable for a Pastor to read sermons from say one of the Puritans to their congregation, perhaps even a simplified shortened version. Why? Because there is such a wealth of material from ages past to draw from that is just as valuable today as it was then. Whether this would be a lazy approach or not, does not seem nearly as relevant as the content itself is gold.

 

[Sam91]

Are they praying and studying the word, making pastoral visits etc. There is a lot of unseen things. Writing a half hour sermon takes a long time too.

How are you gauging laziness?

 

[Arcangl86]

I notice that some pastors are trying to do the minimum amount of work , very passive and I hope that they can be more active in their calling.

What exactly are you seeing?

 

[johnnywong]

How have you "noticed" this?

I know a pastor who is spending 2 days 9(not Mon, Tue) inside the Home (spending 15 hours to write a 15 min sermon ) while doing the housework all day.

Where are the other 30 hr/week are they doing ?

 

[johnnywong]

Maybe those pastors, whoever they are, have a busy life away from the pulpit? The pace of life these days is crazy, time as we know it, slows down for nobody. In my honest opinion, it would be perfectly suitable for a Pastor to read sermons from say one of the Puritans to their congregation, perhaps even a simplified shortened version. Why? Because there is such a wealth of material from ages past to draw from that is just as valuable today as it was then. Whether this would be a lazy approach or not, does not seem nearly as relevant as the content itself is gold.

Great . This is the best suggestion I ever seen in the internet .

The Puritans have stored great treasures inside their sermons.

Some Pastors spend 15 hrs for a 15 min sermon . Optimal Time should be (7-10 min for every min )

Why don't they get some ideas from those Puritans.

my suggestion to the topics of Sermon.


outlines of history of church in 2000 year with emphasis on the faith of the faithful

Comparison of different religion to emphasis the truth in Christ .

a have many similar topics in mind...

 

[johnnywong]

Are they praying and studying the word, making pastoral visits etc. There is a lot of unseen things. Writing a half hour sermon takes a long time too.

How are you gauging laziness?

I respect pastors , I have high expectations on them .


Praying and studying the word is the basic for spiritual growth , which should not be included as the work.


Pastoral visit is a great job to do . I hope that each pastor can have a Log-book of his own , to check how many members they have visit , how long they have visit . and have review and peer-review to improve and self-monitor their own work.


Because a lot of unseen things they better to keep a record to what they have done for self auditing and improvement.


A half hour sermon is too long .

The secrete for a successful sermon is short and sharp.(15 min will be OK )

Some pastors spend 15 hrs to prepare a sermon is too ineffective .

The rule every 7-10 min for every min ( 150 min for 15 min sermon )



The other 15 min to teach some basic stuff of Christianity .

e.g. history of the church

 

[johnnywong]

What exactly are you seeing?

I am seeing the pastor just staying inside the house and spend 15 hours to prepare for a sermon.

I am seeing they do a few hours of admin work while their are already 2 full time staff .

I am seeing they want to recruit other members to keep the door of the Church open while they should stay inside the church while staying inside home...

 

[Arcangl86]

I know a pastor who is spending 2 days 9(not Mon, Tue) inside the Home (spending 15 hours to write a 15 min sermon ) while doing the housework all day.

Where are the other 30 hr/week are they doing ?

Doing visitations, planning for worship, making sure the physical space of the church is taking care of, preparing for Sunday school, outreach to the local community, etc... etc...

 

[St_Worm2]

I know a pastor who is spending 2 days 9(not Mon, Tue) inside the Home (spending 15 hours to write a 15 min sermon ) while doing the housework all day.

Where are the other 30 hr/week are they doing ?

I see, so this thread was about this one pastor in particular. If you want to know what he does with his time, ask him.

Most pastors who I know, particularly senior pastors who preach regularly, put in FAR more than 40 hrs per week at their job(s) in prayer, in study/prep work for preaching (and perhaps teaching adult Sunday School each week), at weekly elder meetings, prayer meetings, in counseling, in visitations, conducting weddings & funerals, conferences, taking care of denominational responsibilities, etc. Typically, they also need to be available/reachable 24/7.

Finally, they are our undershepherds, tasked by the Shepherd Himself to keep watch over our souls .. Hebrews 13:17.

Again, just ask him what his weekly responsibilities are. I think you will be amazed.

--David

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

A half hour sermon is too long .

The secrete for a successful sermon is short and sharp.(15 min will be OK )

Some pastors spend 15 hrs to prepare a sermon is too ineffective .

The rule every 7-10 min for every min ( 150 min for 15 min sermon )

The other 15 min to teach some basic stuff of Christianity .

e.g. history of the church

I think you have an interesting idea, one I've not witnessed in a formal Church gathering. Even take an hour long sermon and break it up into four mini subjects. This way, especially in a large gathering, and because pastors may only preach a couple days per week, more people are likely to gain something beneficial from the messages.

 

[Sam91]

I respect pastors , I have high expectations on them .


Praying and studying the word is the basic for spiritual growth , which should not be included as the work.


Pastoral visit is a great job to do . I hope that each pastor can have a Log-book of his own , to check how many members they have visit , how long they have visit . and have review and peer-review to improve and self-monitor their own work.


Because a lot of unseen things they better to keep a record to what they have done for self auditing and improvement.


A half hour sermon is too long .

The secrete for a successful sermon is short and sharp.(15 min will be OK )

Some pastors spend 15 hrs to prepare a sermon is too ineffective .

The rule every 7-10 min for every min ( 150 min for 15 min sermon )



The other 15 min to teach some basic stuff of Christianity .

e.g. history of the church

Who says 15minutes is long enough? Ours are mostly 35 minutes, some shorter, more slightly longer. If I was at a Church with a 15 minute long sermon I'd feel like I hadn't learned anything and I probably wouldn't. There is no time to get into the meat of it. The content jammed into a 15 minute sermon wouldn't give much understanding to the Bible. Besides, different people are at different stages, facing different challenges and have already been taught by God different lessons. A longer sermon means something I am facing, needing to know is addressed.

The Jews spent much longer than 15 minutes discussing the scriptures and it would be lovely to be able to discuss them more often. We are in need of hearing more, not less.

As far as peer reviews, the content of the visit should definitely not be in any notes. Confidentiality issues spring to mind.

Pastors are held to a higher account than us according to James 3:1. Let us not get vexed over what we are not seeing the full picture of.

Prayer and study is for everyone but I would be disappointed if my pastor wasn't actually spending a lot more time than I in structured prayer. There is the prayer for the congregation members, surely he has more prayer requests than I. Then for all the ministers of other churches, I am not praying for other churches routinely. Prayers about His sermon, for wisdom in the pastoral visit, meetings, what God wants the Church to do. Those are on top of what most Christians are praying for.

I would hope too that the Pastor isn't writing a sermon without prayerfully studying the well-known verses afresh.

I feel a little saddened for the way you feel towards some pastors. I do hope that you're mistaken about what you're seeing and you're able to get those concerns addressed without any discomfort to anyone. Pray for wisdom and understanding as I'm sure you know.

 

[Paidiske]

Some Pastors spend 15 hrs for a 15 min sermon . Optimal Time should be (7-10 min for every min )

It typically takes me about four hours, on average, to write a 15-minute sermon. Sometimes more, if it's a passage or concept I've never preached on before.

It's not just a matter of sitting and writing, as if it's all in your head before you start. I will almost never sit down to write a sermon without doing some background reading on the text.

Praying and studying the word is the basic for spiritual growth , which should not be included as the work.

Why not? Especially if their study is informing their preaching and teaching, why is it not part of their work? And frankly, I need to spend more time in prayer in this role than I ever did as a lay person, just to deal with all the "stuff" that my day-to-day work throws at me.

I posted this in your other thread, and I don't think you got a chance to reply:

I would make a couple of observations, both related to "invisible work."

Often pastors can't tell you that, for example, "I spent two hours today hearing so-and-so's confession;" or three hours visiting such-and-such in hospital, or whatever. Confidentiality prevents it. But that work is both very demanding on our time and emotionally exhausting.

The other is that one thing that's changed is the degree to which pastors have a compliance burden. I spend far more time than I'd like overseeing all sorts of things really related to not breaking laws (like making sure all relevant volunteers have police checks, or that we've done everything relevant to do with copyright laws or food handling laws or occupational health and safety, and on and on it goes...). A generation ago that mostly just didn't exist, but - for example - I know a church near me that employs a person four days a week, whose sole job is to make sure they are completely legally compliant. Four days a week! I don't have that time, but my compliance burden is no less.

Just to give you some idea, some time ago I broke down an "average, normal" week to show lay leaders in my parish what that looks like for me:

Taking services, including transport (to nursing homes), talking to people after: 8.5 hours
Admin - email, blog, mail, phone calls, communication, errands etc: 8.5 hours
Preparing sermons and Bible study materials: 7 hours
Meetings & meeting preparation: 5.5 hours
Service preparation (excluding sermon writing): 4 hours
Pastoral care visits & follow up: 3.5 hours
Prayer & reflection: 3.5 hours
Professional development: 2.5 hours
Collegial relationships: 2 hours
Leading Bible study: 2 hours
Community contact: 1 hours

That's a week where nobody dies, I don't have external demands (like a training day) or the like. Now, that was about six months ago and I'd say I've managed to shift the balance so that I do more community contact (I'd probably average 4 hours of that a week now) which is where the evangelism and outreach stuff comes in. And I was able to shift the balance partly because I had this conversation and was able to get some people to pick up some of the admin tasks.

But the role is multi-faceted and complex, and it's certainly not just a few hours a week on admin and sermon preparation!

 

[Phil 1:21]

You should start your own church. It seems you have it all figured out. Best of luck.

 

[johnnywong]

Thnaks God

It typically takes me about four hours, on average, to write a 15-minute sermon. Sometimes more, if it's a passage or concept I've never preached on before.

It's not just a matter of sitting and writing, as if it's all in your head before you start. I will almost never sit down to write a sermon without doing some background reading on the text.



Why not? Especially if their study is informing their preaching and teaching, why is it not part of their work? And frankly, I need to spend more time in prayer in this role than I ever did as a lay person, just to deal with all the "stuff" that my day-to-day work throws at me.

I posted this in your other thread, and I don't think you got a chance to reply:

I would make a couple of observations, both related to "invisible work."

Often pastors can't tell you that, for example, "I spent two hours today hearing so-and-so's confession;" or three hours visiting such-and-such in hospital, or whatever. Confidentiality prevents it. But that work is both very demanding on our time and emotionally exhausting.

The other is that one thing that's changed is the degree to which pastors have a compliance burden. I spend far more time than I'd like overseeing all sorts of things really related to not breaking laws (like making sure all relevant volunteers have police checks, or that we've done everything relevant to do with copyright laws or food handling laws or occupational health and safety, and on and on it goes...). A generation ago that mostly just didn't exist, but - for example - I know a church near me that employs a person four days a week, whose sole job is to make sure they are completely legally compliant. Four days a week! I don't have that time, but my compliance burden is no less.

Just to give you some idea, some time ago I broke down an "average, normal" week to show lay leaders in my parish what that looks like for me:

Taking services, including transport (to nursing homes), talking to people after: 8.5 hours
Admin - email, blog, mail, phone calls, communication, errands etc: 8.5 hours
Preparing sermons and Bible study materials: 7 hours
Meetings & meeting preparation: 5.5 hours
Service preparation (excluding sermon writing): 4 hours
Pastoral care visits & follow up: 3.5 hours
Prayer & reflection: 3.5 hours
Professional development: 2.5 hours
Collegial relationships: 2 hours
Leading Bible study: 2 hours
Community contact: 1 hours

That's a week where nobody dies, I don't have external demands (like a training day) or the like. Now, that was about six months ago and I'd say I've managed to shift the balance so that I do more community contact (I'd probably average 4 hours of that a week now) which is where the evangelism and outreach stuff comes in. And I was able to shift the balance partly because I had this conversation and was able to get some people to pick up some of the admin tasks.

But the role is multi-faceted and complex, and it's certainly not just a few hours a week on admin and sermon preparation!

Thanks God.

You are his great servant. You keep you own record!

Then you can improve your ministry with self-auditing .

I hope that more pastors can learn from you .

This is the reason I write this tread.

 

[johnnywong]

You should start your own church. It seems you have it all figured out. Best of luck.

No .

Can't you see the reason behind this tread.

It is full of sorrow and pain to discuss this tread.

 

[Phil 1:21]

No .

Can't you see the reason behind this tread.

It is full of sorrow and pain to discuss this tread.

Yes, I used to have a job where some customers who didn't know my job and couldn't do my job thought they knew more about my job than did I.

 

[Arcangl86]

Thnaks God


Thanks God.

You are his great servant. You keep you own record!

Then you can improve your ministry with self-auditing .

I hope that more pastors can learn from you .

This is the reason I write this tread.

How do you know that the pastors you are complaining about aren't keeping their own record?

 

[johnnywong]

Thanks

Who says 15minutes is long enough? Ours are mostly 35 minutes, some shorter, more slightly longer. If I was at a Church with a 15 minute long sermon I'd feel like I hadn't learned anything and I probably wouldn't. There is no time to get into the meat of it. The content jammed into a 15 minute sermon wouldn't give much understanding to the Bible. Besides, different people are at different stages, facing different challenges and have already been taught by God different lessons. A longer sermon means something I am facing, needing to know is addressed.

The Jews spent much longer than 15 minutes discussing the scriptures and it would be lovely to be able to discuss them more often. We are in need of hearing more, not less.

As far as peer reviews, the content of the visit should definitely not be in any notes. Confidentiality issues spring to mind.

Pastors are held to a higher account than us according to James 3:1. Let us not get vexed over what we are not seeing the full picture of.

Prayer and study is for everyone but I would be disappointed if my pastor wasn't actually spending a lot more time than I in structured prayer. There is the prayer for the congregation members, surely he has more prayer requests than I. Then for all the ministers of other churches, I am not praying for other churches routinely. Prayers about His sermon, for wisdom in the pastoral visit, meetings, what God wants the Church to do. Those are on top of what most Christians are praying for.

I would hope too that the Pastor isn't writing a sermon without prayerfully studying the well-known verses afresh.

I feel a little saddened for the way you feel towards some pastors. I do hope that you're mistaken about what you're seeing and you're able to get those concerns addressed without any discomfort to anyone. Pray for wisdom and understanding as I'm sure you know.

How do you know that the pastors you are complaining about aren't keeping their own record?

I thanks God if they are doing it.