WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - UPDATED.

[GodsGrace101]

You didn't have to read all 10. One would have been a good start.

1 was about hearing God's voice.
It was too much to read anyway....

And...we all hear God saying something different it seems.

Maybe we hear a PERSONAL revelation; not meant to share.

We ALL hear God's voice in one way or another.
What does this have to do with Sola Scriptura?
God uses the bible to speak to us.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your entire post.

I'm not sure what you think I believe.

The Ceremonial Laws have to do with the traditions of Israel's worship practices. For instance, there's a lot of this in Leviticus where it explains how to make a sacrifice.

Can we make sacrifices today?
No. So the Ceremonial Laws are abolished.

The Civil Laws taught how to live life in a general sense. Deuteronomy speaks to this....this is where Moses declares that a certificate of divorce must be given.

Can we live by the same standards of that time?
No. So the Civil Laws are abolished.

The Moral Law,,, which is the 10 Commandments is still in effect today....the moral law will never change because God gave these commands as He is a Moral Being.

Hope this clears up some issues.

Maybe I'll stop bowing out of the thread. Heh.

Okay, so the idea is, what is morality? Is it listening to God and obeying? Well God commanded the ceremonial laws and the civil laws. So then even the ceremonial and civil laws were moral laws for the Israelite's at the time. Does that bit make sense? If it is obedience to the Voice that defines morality, then following the whole covenant, every little bit, becomes a moral issue.

Next, to try and pick and choose the moral bits out of the covenant is not so simple. What criteria do we use? Have you chosen to use the idea of the Ten Commandments as a summary for morality? Or have you just chosen to pick the Ten out of the Covenant because they were written by the hand of God? If so, why?

When you say "the moral law will never change" you are referring to the Ten Commandments. But there is no reason to decide on the Ten Commandments as being ONLY moral laws. Why should there not be a ceremonial law in the Ten? Again, the bible does not separate the Ten as eternal moral laws, this is a man made idea. Not to mention there are many moral ideas that the Ten say nothing at all about.

Today, because the Mosaic Covenant in it's entirety got superseded by the better covenant of Christ, our morality comes from following the Law of Love; that is, walking in the Spirit.

Make sense?

 

[GodsGrace101]

The doctrine holds that all binding beliefs must be found in Sacred Scripture, but the doctrine itself is not found in Sacred Scripture. The doctrine refutes itself.

Moreover, Sacred Scripture itself contradicts the doctrine (see, e.g. 2 Thess 2:15).

This is interesting....
I know that there was no N.T. at the beginning and yet the faith held together because persons depended on the church. And the elders; Bishops, Deacons, etc.

I still don't believe, however, that the doctrine of S.S. refutes itself.

What else, with real authority, should we adhere to?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I did not think you would respond to post 118 linked as it shows why your claims are not true.

LOL! I might start a thread in the relevant area of the forum as you suggest.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well, could you please point us to the person or Church that has all of the doctrine correct?

If you really want to know,,,I believe the Nazarene Church is the purest church we have.

I think the Catholic church has many good teachings and is very spiritual in many ways....I'm sorry for some of their doctrine - which caused me to leave that church.

Some doctrine are not so important even if wrong...and some are very important.

I don't believe this is the place to get into this.
Or is it?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LOL! I might start a thread in the relevant area of the forum as you suggest.

Great look forward to it. Send me the link. I won't hold my breath though.

 

[JAL]

1 was about hearing God's voice.
It was too much to read anyway....

And...we all hear God saying something different it seems.

Maybe we hear a PERSONAL revelation; not meant to share.

We ALL hear God's voice in one way or another.
What does this have to do with Sola Scriptura?
God uses the bible to speak to us.

God's supposed to be pretty smart, right? And you are 100% sure that His master plan for the human race centered on a book that, for lack of a printing press, wasn't even in circulation for 90% of human history?

(And that one was free - it wasn't even one of the 10 points, as I recall).

Why would that be His preferred medium of communication when Direct Revelation is potentially a better one?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Maybe I'll stop bowing out of the thread. Heh.

Okay, so the idea is, what is morality? Is it listening to God and obeying? Well God commanded the ceremonial laws and the civil laws. So then even the ceremonial and civil laws were moral laws for the Israelite's at the time. Does that bit make sense? If it is obedience to the Voice that defines morality, then following the whole covenant, every little bit, becomes a moral issue.

Next, to try and pick and choose the moral bits out of the covenant is not so simple. What criteria do we use? Have you chosen to use the idea of the Ten Commandments as a summary for morality? Or have you just chosen to pick the Ten out of the Covenant because they were written by the hand of God? If so, why?

When you say "the moral law will never change" you are referring to the Ten Commandments. But there is no reason to decide on the Ten Commandments as being ONLY moral laws. Why should there not be a ceremonial law in the Ten? Again, the bible does not separate the Ten as eternal moral laws, this is a man made idea. Not to mention there are many moral ideas that the Ten say nothing at all about.

Today, because the Mosaic Covenant in it's entirety got superseded by the better covenant of Christ, our morality comes from following the Law of Love; that is, walking in the Spirit.

Make sense?

Sure. What do you think I believe??
Jesus chiseled the 10 Commandments down to only 2. But within those two commandments all the others are covered.

My point is that it's not possible to follow the civil or ceremonial laws today. Jesus said it was acceptable to save animals on the Sabbath, or to pick food (work) on the Sabbath. It was decided that food sacrificed to the gods could be eaten, Jesus said the divorce certificate from Moses' time was not acceptable to God.

Jesus only spoke of the Moral Law....
The Civil and Ceremonial Laws were for man's benefit and could be changed when needed....

HOW do you change a moral law? Does it become acceptable to God to kill someone?

But it HAS become acceptable not to sacrifice animals anymore because Jesus was the final sacrifice.

I believer there IS a ceremonial law in the 10 commandments...and as @LoveGodsWord knows, I have difficulty with this and one that may never be resolved.

Keeping the Sabbath holy,,,in whatever way possible, may be a ceremonial law....but it is also a commandment.

So do we follow 10 or do we follow 9?

I know that the O.P. believes that salvation could most probably be lost due to this rejection of the 1...but if God could forgive us the others if we repent, He will surely forgive those that are NOT keeping the 7th day due to an honest belief that they are to honor the 1st day.

Some attribute this to Rome, when it became involved in Christianity, but we read in Acts that the Apostles me on the 1st day of the week. (20:7)
and POSSIBLY 1 Corinthians 16:2 might refer to this.

What is morality?
Knowing what is right and wrong.
And who is to decide this?
GOD.

 

[Swag365]

This is interesting....
I know that there was no N.T. at the beginning and yet the faith held together because persons depended on the church. And the elders; Bishops, Deacons, etc.

I still don't believe, however, that the doctrine of S.S. refutes itself.

What else, with real authority, should we adhere to?

For one, you should adhere to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in your every day life.

But since you asked the question I will throw it back at you. Why do you adhere to Sacred Scripture as a real authority?

If you really want to know,,,I believe the Nazarene Church is the purest church we have.

Does the Nazarene Church have all of its doctrine correct?

I think the Catholic church has many good teachings and is very spiritual in many ways....I'm sorry for some of their doctrine - which caused me to leave that church.

Well you are always free to come home should you change your mind. She would be glad to have you back.

 

[GodsGrace101]

God's supposed to be pretty smart, right? And you are 100% sure that His master plan for the human race centered on a book that, for lack of a printing press, wasn't even in circulation for 90% of human history?

(And that one was free - it wasn't even one of the 10 points, as I recall).

Why would that be His preferred medium of communication when Direct Revelation is potentially a better one?

But that's not what Sola Scriptura means!

God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to man.
Romans 1:19-20 He is seen by His creation...man
has always known of the existance of God. Man has always had the opportunity of accepting Him or not...which is why man will be without excuse at judgement time.

However, the knowledge of God was also passed down from generation to generation. I believe God chose the Hebrew people to write His story because they were good at remembering stories and then eventually began to write them down on papyrus.
Expensive and rare....but we have them today and know that they were used.

Sola Scriptura is so that we may have an authority...one that we can refer to.

Do you think Christianity would still be functioning today if it was NOT written down on paper?

I don't believe so.

The Jews were able to hold on to their religion and customs....I don't know of any other culture that would have --- I may be wrong.

 

[Swag365]

Sure. What do you think I believe??
Jesus chiseled the 10 Commandments down to only 2. But within those two commandments all the others are covered.

My point is that it's not possible to follow the civil or ceremonial laws today. Jesus said it was acceptable to save animals on the Sabbath, or to pick food (work) on the Sabbath. It was decided that food sacrificed to the gods could be eaten, Jesus said the divorce certificate from Moses' time was not acceptable to God.

Jesus only spoke of the Moral Law....
The Civil and Ceremonial Laws were for man's benefit and could be changed when needed....

HOW do you change a moral law? Does it become acceptable to God to kill someone?

But it HAS become acceptable not to sacrifice animals anymore because Jesus was the final sacrifice.

I believer there IS a ceremonial law in the 10 commandments...and as @LoveGodsWord knows, I have difficulty with this and one that may never be resolved.

Keeping the Sabbath holy,,,in whatever way possible, may be a ceremonial law....but it is also a commandment.

So do we follow 10 or do we follow 9?

I know that the O.P. believes that salvation could most probably be lost due to this rejection of the 1...but if God could forgive us the others if we repent, He will surely forgive those that are NOT keeping the 7th day due to an honest belief that they are to honor the 1st day.

Some attribute this to Rome, when it became involved in Christianity, but we read in Acts that the Apostles me on the 1st day of the week. (20:7)
and POSSIBLY 1 Corinthians 16:2 might refer to this.

What is morality?
Knowing what is right and wrong.
And who is to decide this?
GOD.

Hmm. Interesting. I think there is still a basic moral component to the 3rd Commandment. We don't have to observe the Sabbath per se, but I think within that there is still a basic moral obligation to set time aside to worship God.

 

[Swag365]

However, the knowledge of God was also passed down from generation to generation. I believe God chose the Hebrew people to write His story because they were good at remembering stories and then eventually began to write them down on papyrus.

Hmm. This sounds like faith to me (which is perfectly legitimate).

Do you think Christianity would still be functioning today if it was NOT written down on paper?

I don't believe so.

Why is that exactly? The Christian Church survived for decades before the first book of the New Testament was ever written. If left to man, perhaps the Church would not have survived, but with God anything is possible.

 

[GodsGrace101]

For one, you should adhere to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in your every day life.

But since you asked the question I will throw it back at you. Why do you adhere to Sacred Scripture as a real authority?

What makes you think I don't adhere to the promptings of the Holy Spirit? I'm not saying I do all the time...and it's not always a sin not to....but it would be wise. We can only do our best to listen ot Him at all times,,,even in neutral matters. And there are some.

Why are the Sacred Scriptures an authority?
Because they were written by persons that spend years with Jesus...or persons that knew THEM.
Because I trust the Apostles and trust that they are telling us the truth through both themselves (John) and others.

I've read a little about the ECFs and find that they practiced a pure and simple faith that adhered to what was then put together by the ECFs.

Because (sorry) the Pope could change some doctrine (which he's not supposed to) but the Word of God will never change. Although men to interpret it differently. Even the CC is not totally in agreement as to some doctrine, but I'd like not to get into this.

Does the Nazarene Church have all of its doctrine correct?

I attended that church for about 10 years and agree with all their doctrine. John Wesley had the idea that sanctification could be achieved in this lifetime...that was the only teaching I was not in total agreement with and which, BTW, has changed in recent times because it's obvious man cannot be totally sanctified in this life.

Well you are always free to come home should you change your mind. She would be glad to have you back.

I attend a CC now and have a couple of priests that are friends of ours (my husband and myself). I've taught catechism for 6 years for one of those priests but had to stop. It's a long story.

 

[JAL]

HOW do you change a moral law? Does it become acceptable to God to kill someone?

Yes. That's why Abraham tried to kill his son, and Moses and Joshua tried to slaughter 7 nations to take Canaan.

Here's the thing. You cannot fully detail the Law of Love in writing because everyone's circumstances are different. That's why we need the Voice. Indeed there's an authority higher than the Voice - technically speaking - and that is conscience (one of my 10 points). God would be unjust to dishonor this rule of conscience:

"If I feel certain that action-A is evil and B is good, I should opt for B"

And you can't find any scenarios clearly calling for departure from it. (Complain as you like about seared conscience). The rule is implicit at Rom 2:14-15, 1cor 8:1-13, and Rom 14.

So for two people:
(1) First one feels certain he should go to church on Saturday
(2) The other feels certain he should go to church on Sunday

God's hands are tied by the rule, He must honor both believers - except He does have one option, called Direct Revelation. The Voice can speak in a way that convicts either of the two believers to correct their behavior, causing them to feel certain they were doing it wrong.

I know you'd like to have an in-writing absolute standard of law that applies the same to everyone, but that's just not viable. Even if God prefers for us all goto church on Saturday, any of us might be subject to extenuating circumstances (such as a sick or autistic child, relative, parent, friend, or neighbor that we have to take care of on Saturday).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hmm. Interesting. I think there is still a basic moral component to the 3rd Commandment. We don't have to observe the Sabbath per se, but I think within that there is still a basic moral obligation to set time aside to worship God.

God certainly didn't need rest from creation.
But we do.
The Israelites had been slaves for about 400 years.
When they were released from Egypt they'd forgotten what it was like to live in a civil community...they were just happy to stay alive. And maybe not even that.

So God wanted them to rest on the final day of the week. They had always worked 7 days...now they were to work 6 days but rest on the 7th. Man does need rest.

We should worship God every day,,,but putting a day aside for Him shows that we honor Him. We could turn this into a work and into a religious ritual...but it is necessary to spend time with the family and with God (in a special way) at least one day a week.

It could be debated when the ECFs celebrated this rest. It's rather unfortunate that the Didache does not state what day this should be done...it just says to practice this rest and meet with other Christians.

The CC has it covered!
Mass on Saturday
or Mass on Sunday...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

So do we follow 10 or do we follow 9?

We should not look to the Ten for moral guidance, but the Perfect Law of Liberty.

Galatians 3:2-3 tells us that to return to the law after being saved is to return to living in the flesh:

“...did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
​

We either live in the Spirit, or we attempt to do the works of the Law; the two are in opposition. We begin in the Spirit. We continue in the Spirit. We never turn our eyes back. He perfects us, not the law which Paul refers to as “the flesh”. There is strong correlation in the letter to the Galatians between “the works of the law” and “perfected by the flesh”. Works of the law are equated to living in the flesh. Paul’s whole argument relies on the fact we are “no longer under” the law (3:25).

“Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?” (4:21).​

“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor” (2:18)​

Note that your argument is this:

A. I keep nine of the Ten
B. Therefore I should keep ten of the Ten

I could use this argument Leviticus 19:

A. I keep most of the laws in Leviticus 19
B. I must keep all of the law in Leviticus 19

Leviticus 19 also lists: Do not lie, Do not steal etc. along side Do not plant two kinds of seeds in one field and Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes. That's why Abraham tried to kill his son, and Moses and Joshua tried to slaughter 7 nations to take Canaan.

Here's the thing. You cannot fully detail the Law of Love in writing because everyone's circumstances are different. That's why we need the Voice. Indeed there's an authority higher than the Voice - technically speaking - and that is conscience (one of my 10 points). God would be unjust to dishonor this rule of conscience:

"If I feel certain that action-A is evil and B is good, I should opt for B"

And you can't find any scenarios clearly calling for departure from it. (Complain as you like about seared conscience). The rule is implicit at Rom 2:14-15, 1cor 8:1-13, and Rom 14.

So for two people:
(1) First one feels certain he should go to church on Saturday
(2) The other feels certain he should go to church on Sunday

God's hands are tied by the rule, He must honor both believers - except He does have one option, called Direct Revelation. The Voice can speak in a way that convicts either of the two believers to correct their behavior, causing them to feel certain they were doing it wrong.

I know you'd like to have an in-writing absolute standard of law that applies the same to everyone, but that's just not viable. Even if God prefers for us all goto church on Saturday, any of us might be subject to extenuating circumstances (such as a sick or autistic child, relative, parent, friend, or neighbor that we have to take care of on Saturday).

I agree with all you've said.

Just a thought regarding the conscience.
We can only use our conscience as a guide only when it has been properly formed. Some do not have a proper formation of the conscience and cannot make proper decisions. This is seen, for instance, in young persons ruining their lives for dumb reasons because they're conscience was giving them incorrect information or no information at all.

Most persons go to church on a given day because that is how they've been raised. If they study at all and come across this subject matter, then they have to give it a lot of thought and do as you've stated above. As I've said....God promises to forgive us if we repent or sin in ignorance.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We should not look to the Ten for moral guidance, but the Perfect Law of Liberty.

Galatians 3:2-3 tells us that to return to the law after being saved is to return to living in the flesh:

“...did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
​

We either live in the Spirit, or we attempt to do the works of the Law; the two are in opposition. We begin in the Spirit. We continue in the Spirit. We never turn our eyes back. He perfects us, not the law which Paul refers to as “the flesh”. There is strong correlation in the letter to the Galatians between “the works of the law” and “perfected by the flesh”. Works of the law are equated to living in the flesh. Paul’s whole argument relies on the fact we are “no longer under” the law (3:25).

“Tell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?” (4:21).​

“For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor” (2:18)​

Note that your argument is this:

A. I keep nine of the Ten
B. Therefore I should keep ten of the Ten

I could use this argument Leviticus 19:

A. I keep most of the laws in Leviticus 19
B. I must keep all of the law in Leviticus 19

Leviticus 19 also lists: Do not lie, Do not steal etc. along side Do not plant two kinds of seeds in one field and Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Awesome....there is always confusion about the law.

Paul is speaking about THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
We are not under the Works of the Law.

Paul NEVER said we are not to adhere to the Moral Law.
Obeying God is NOT a WORK OF THE LAW.

We are required to obey God.
John 3:36

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hmm. This sounds like faith to me (which is perfectly legitimate).

Why is that exactly? The Christian Church survived for decades before the first book of the New Testament was ever written. If left to man, perhaps the Church would not have survived, but with God anything is possible.

The church survived at the beginning because the men that knew the Apostles were so convinced in their faith in Jesus. They travelled the world to witness, convert and baptize, as Jesus requested in Matthew 28:19-20

People were different...they believed in gods,,,but at least they believed. Our world today in inundated with agnostics and atheists.

The church had already begun being built up when Jesus died...the letters were circulated; there was written documentation even though the bible had not been put together yet.

Mostly all scientists were theistic....even till about the 1800's.
look at our scientists now...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

GOD'S MAXIM - THE WORD OF GOD

There is only one standard of conscience of what is right and what is wrong and what is truth and what is error. It is both the spoken and the written Words of God. JESUS tells us today that there are many false prophets and false teachers that have gone out into the world *MATTHEW 24:24 etc, and that we are to test the Spirits if they are from God or not *1 JOHN 4:1-6. The only rule of test is Gods' MAXIM of his Word and the 10 Commandments as the standard of right and wrong truth and error according to the scriptures. ISAIAH 8:20; JOHN 6:63.

There is nothing wrong with the direct revelation (spoken Word) as long as it agrees with the testing of the written Word of God which is the final authority that determines if the direct revelation (spoken Word) is of God or of the devil.

If you throw away God's appoined MAXIM of his written Word there is no way to determined truth and error, right and wrong if you have no knowledge of what truth and error is or what right and wrong is. We are to put on the whole armour of God. How can you go to battle when you have no sword (the Word) and Shield (faith in the Word)? When the enemy of souls comes to battle what are you going to do when you have thrown away your shield and have no sword?

Hope this helps.

 

[GodsGrace101]

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