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WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - A REBUTTAL

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JAL

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A good passage on the biblical concept of Rest:

Those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint (Isa 40).

How do we get it? Waiting on the Lord for revival.
 
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JAL

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And as for the devotees of "Direct Revelation," the post by Paul James was correct to point out that these "revelations" do not reveal anything that is essential for mankind to find salvation. Rather, they typically deal with personal matters such as God bringing the guy a girl to love, whether the person will get the job he wants, how to make the person's ministry more God-pleasing, or else they reassert something that is in the Bible already. In addition, they are not given to all mankind, which is a very fundamental departure from the purposes of Holy Scripture. They might better be called "Private Revelation" than "Direct Revelation."
Complaints about unregulated, seemingly spurious pretenses of revelation have little bearing on whether the real thing is a good thing. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Suppose I went and found some examples - even on this forum - of unregulated exegesis, essentially blatant eisegesis. Would that cause you to throw out the Bible?

I can imagine only one practical way to regulate prophecy - as stated a couple of times on this thread - and practicing it would likely eliminate inauthentic revelation and, eventually, the stigmatizing of it.
 
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JAL

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These events are not "direct revelation" but specific guidance to to specific actions as required by the Holy Spirit.
Ok then it seems we've been talking past each other in this debate. Apparently we're on the same side? Because if you regard visions, dreams, and voices from the Lord to be both normal and normative guidance by the Holy Spirit, seems to me you are clearly a proponent of Direct Revelation.
 
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JAL

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I missed this post.
You are saying that prophecy is to take priority over the literal text of Scripture and you are using this verse to support it.
You are putting words in my mouth. I adduced 1Cor 14:1 because you seemed so disparaging of prophecy, basically classifying it as something not to be trusted, and thereby relegating it to low-priority at best. Yet a literal reading of that verse seems to put it on the very top rung of the ladder alongside love, and thus as top priority. And you're right when you go on to insinuate that even a 10 year old could grasp the basic import of the verse.

I'm sorry your list of priorities is arranged in a different order than Paul's.
 
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JAL

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What Paul says later on (which you may be ignoring) is that when one prophesies, the others judge the prophecy. This means that they don't take the prophecy at face value even if the guy says, "Thus says the Lord". They judge the prophecy to determine whether the Lord is really saying it or not. The way they would judge it would be on the basis of the written Scripture, and, like the Bereans, they would have searched the Scriptures to see whether the prophecy is consistent with with Scripture or not.
Really? Exegesis is the test, huh? Funny Paul never mentions exegesis as the test. Ok let's consider an example. Prophecy is for encouragment, right? Picture this one:

"Your crops have been failing in this drought - you've been struggling financially. But thus saith the Lord: Within 4 weeks you will see abundant showers of rain begin to fall on your land."

Tell me, what verse of Scripture would prove true or false this word of encouragement? And which Scriptures do you mean? You mean the book that 99% of them didn't have a copy of for lack of a printing press? Is that the one you had in mind?


Just because the guy says, "I am really certain that this is coming from the Lord", which would ring alarm bells in me because if the prophecy is from the Lord, then he wouldn't have to say it is from the Lord, because those who have comprehensive Scripture knowledge would know immediately whether it was true or false.

A friend of mine told me about a meeting where a large guy got up and gave a loud prophecy (as if he had a built in amplifier) in KJV language, including "Thus says the Lord", and the leader, who had a lifetime experience and knowledge of the Scriptures told the people, "Well, we can safely ignore that one!"
(Sigh). For the millionth time, such examples of unregulated prophecy are totally irrelevant to this debate. Who cares if someone claims to be 100% certain. Were YOU 100% certain? And if you were, end of story, because the maxim dictates that you honor that certainty, as a moral obligation:

"If I feel certain that action-A is evil, and B is good, I should opt for B".

And if you were NOT certain, then you are LIKEWISE supposed to act accordingly - just reject the prophecy. So what? What's the big deal here? Where is the big dilemma?

And let's get a couple of things straight here:
(1) You haven't resolved the logical contradiction raised in point #4 of my 16-point rebuttal. You are saying that exegesis is the test. How is that supposed to work? The Voice is suppose to help me understand Scripture. If I already understand Scripture well enough to exegetically verify whatever the Voice says, why do I need the Voice to help me understand Scripture? That makes no sense.
(2) Exegesis isn't supposed to be a test of, and corrective for, Direct Revelation. You've got it backwards. Direct Revelation is supposed to be a corrective to exegesis. We already saw this when Paul threw out 20 years of exegesis when he saw a vision on the Road to Damascus. Let's consider Peter as a second example. Based on his understanding of Scripture, Peter had a lifelong habit of shunning the Gentiles. Then he saw a vision on a rooftop commanding him to preach to the Gentiles (see Acts 10 and 11). Like Paul, he suddenly threw his former exegetical conclusions out the window.

You'll claim the Bereans as a counterexample. Sorry, that's an unsubstantiated conclusion. You have NO PROOF that the Bereans were trying to rely on exegesis - human reasoning - to fathom those verses. Chances are that they were wise enough to nurture the Light of the Holy Spirit - they read with the hope and expectation that Direct Revelation would illuminate the Scriptures for them.
 
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lsume

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Ditto. This is not a real rebuttal. And much of it doesn't make sense, for example:

"There is NO ILLUMINATION outside of Gods' WORD".

No illumination outside of the Bible? That doesn't make sense, right? Illumination existed before the Bible - otherwise Moses could not have written the OT. If there is no illumination outside the Bible, then all you have is biblical scholarship to help you understand it, right? Apparently you think that God is not going to shine His Light into your mind since, the text itself, as you say, is the only Light given to us? God is not going to help you understand that text? He provides nothing but the text? You're not being clear. Notice how Paul wasn't satisfied with text-alone:


For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe (Ephesians 1).

You see that word 'revelation'? You'll see it generally means "Direct Revelation" as used throughout the NT. Paul could have said, "Just go to seminary and study the text alone." But he realized that wasn't enough, so he prayed for Direct Revelation. If that's what Paul did, what do you suppose we should be doing?
Something to consider is that when Christ teaches us directly, there is one Truth. Until one has had this ongoing experience, their ability to discern The Word is greatly limited.
 
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Paul James

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Disparaging prophecy, you wrote:


Later, when I pressed you to tell me what a literal reading of 1Cor 14 entails, you conceded of prophecy:



Then I accused you of backpedaling. You responded:


No, actually debate is always a matter of trying to shoot down the opposing position. This strengthens one's own position.

Anyway, as I've pointed out a couple of times now, you have some legitimate complaints, not about prophecy, but about unregulated prophecy. That is all.
New Testament prophecy is not direct revelation from God. If it was, God is giving new Scripture which should be added to what is already there, because when God speaks directly, He is speaking Scripture.
 
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Paul James

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How about when they reveal Jesus Himself? Is He not Salvation?
I don't have a problem with that because it involves a non-Christian who didn't believe the Bible having a personal encounter with Jesus which led to his conversion to Christ.

It is not the same as professing Christians receiving direct revelation and taking it as face value without checking to see whether it has already been spoken by the Holy Spirit in one or more of the 66 books of the Bible. As I am saying if God speaks to a person through direct revelation, it is either somewhere mentioned in the Bible already, or it is new Scripture that should be added to it. But the problem with that is, there is a prohibition to adding to what has already been written in the Bible (Proverbs 30:6-7).
 
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Paul James

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I missed this post.
You are putting words in my mouth. I adduced 1Cor 14:1 because you seemed so disparaging of prophecy, basically classifying it as something not to be trusted, and thereby relegating it to low-priority at best. Yet a literal reading of that verse seems to put it on the very top rung of the ladder alongside love, and thus as top priority. And you're right when you go on to insinuate that even a 10 year old could grasp the basic import of the verse.

I'm sorry your list of priorities is arranged in a different order than Paul's.
You see, you are making assumptions about what I believe concerning prophecy without knowing my background, training, and experience in the prophetic.

In my 20s, I spent three years under the discipleship of a mature traditional Pentecostal pastor who was very experienced in the ministry of healing, with a few notable miracle healings to his credit, including his own, having been sent home from hospital in his 40s with an enlarged heart and was expected to die. He prayed and trusted God and was totally healed. He actually died in his late 70s of pneumonia after suffering a major stroke. He was also very experienced in the prophetic, and believed that one had to be a man of the Word and of prayer to be able to move in it successfully. He was very strict, and did not hesitate to tell someone to stop and sit down if he thought they were prophesying something that did not line up with Scripture.

When he used to correct me, which was often, he would get out his big black Bible and show me through Scripture where I went wrong. He was never wrong with his correction of me. He was so strict, that I was too scared to open my mouth to give a prophecy unless I knew beyond doubt that it was from the Lord. When he told me that my gift was genuine, and I should never give it up, I took that as a serious badge of honour.

When they had a prophetic forum on CF, I offered to give prophetic words to those who needed one, and I ended up giving around 200 prophetic words, and only one person did not concur and said he would think about it. One guy messaged me and asked me if I ate prophetic cornflakes for breakfast and drove a prophetic car to work. All the ones who fed back to me assured me that the word I gave them was of the Lord for them. I was amazed at that, because often I would have just a few minutes in the morning before I had to catch the bus to work and I quickly would ask the Lord, and the impression would come and I would give it in faith. Often someone would tell me that the Scripture I gave as part of the prophecy, they had been reading that very one and my prophetic word confirmed things for them. I never felt prophetic when I gave those words, and often I was apprehensive that I was giving a wrong word, but it never happened.

Then a couple of others on the prophetic forum would start giving long, negative, judgmental KJV prophecies which caused the staff to shut the forum down. Also, when some started using me as their prophetic vending machine, wanting prophecies every day, I asked the Lord and He told me to stop, not because I was doing wrong, but the devil was starting to muddy the waters because he didn't like what I was doing.

So, when you are speaking to me about the prophetic, you are preaching to the choir! :)

I think after all our conversations, we might be speaking past each other from different perspectives. I link the prophetic with the written Scriptures in the sense that to be prepared to move in the prophetic one must be totally familiar with the written Scriptures to the degree that when an impression comes I have to know instantly whether the impression is correct or not. I think this awareness comes through meditating in the Scriptures and taking plenty of time fellowshiping with the Lord in prayer, discussing the Scriptures with Him. After soaking in the Scriptures and prayer over a good period of time (and this is why novices should not rush into the prophetic) one then knows in his spirit that when an impression comes, it is the right one.

If this is what you are referring to as direct revelation, then I agree with you, as long as it is linked with an overall sense of what the Scripture teaches about the ways, plans and purposes of God, and are familiar with the presence of God through regular fellowship with Him. I used to live not too far from the coast where there was a very long wide beach, and I used to go there, walk along for a couple of hours with my hands in my pockets, having very pleasurable and fruitful discussions with the Lord about many things. Through that I got used to when the Lord spoke back to me, giving me insights into His plans and purposes through the Scriptures.

This goes right along with "My sheep know my voice, and they follow me, and they won't follow a stranger". This comes because the Middle Eastern shepherd almost lived with his sheep, guarded them, and spoke to them often. They became familiar with his voice, and could tell his voice from that of a stranger.

But what I do oppose, is people like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn purporting to get direct revelation that is obviously contrary to God's true plans and purposes, and are drawing people away from the true gospel of Christ, to putting trust in their usurped authority. That's the sort of direct revelation that I will not agree with, not in a million years. I also don't concur with the pope sitting in the chair of Peter getting direct revelation that becomes part of tradition that effectively adds to Scripture.

I guess I may be playing more into your hands now, or are we coming to consensus?
 
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chilehed

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I don't agree with you on this, but I can't be bothered to push the issue any further in this direction. It is getting late in the day and my blue energy pill is wearing off. :)
I had to go to bed as well. Right now I'm enjoying a rich cup of Black Elixir.

One way you could convince me of my error would be to determine the canon from scratch using nothing but the documents themselves, without reference to the list that you already know.

I also don't concur with the pope sitting in the chair of Peter getting direct revelation that becomes part of tradition that effectively adds to Scripture.
FYI (and off-topic), that's the exact opposite of how things work in the Catholic Church. The Church recognizes that private revelation can exist, but never says that a specific alleged private revelation is genuine and never says that it is binding on anyone other than the person it was given to (and, even then, only if it actually is from God). The farthest it goes is to say that a private revelation is worthy of belief, that it appears to not conflict with legitimate Christian doctrine and a faithful Christian can believe it or not.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I had to go to bed as well. Right now I'm enjoying a rich cup of Black Elixir.

One way you could convince me of my error would be to determine the canon from scratch using nothing but the documents themselves, without reference to the list that you already know.

Well I am a looong way behind and have a lot of catching up to do, but to me (with all due respect) this is a silly argument as it tries to come from the standpoint that God is not in control of his Word which is nonesense if you believe that there is a God and the scriptures are inspired by God. So your premise is nonsense and rejected.
 
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chilehed

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Well I am a looong way behind and have a lot of catching up to do, but to me (with all due respect) this is a silly argument as it tries to come from the standpoint that God is not in control of his Word...
You have so much catching up to do that you have absolutely no idea what I've been saying. I suggest you study my posts more carefully.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Rather, there is a flaw in your reasoning because it is based on the canon which was determined by the Catholic Church, whose authority you deny.

Like it or not, you and I both believe the New Testament documents were written by the Apostles because the Catholic Church said that they were. That's the ONLY reason we believe it, and that completely cuts the idea of Sola Scriptura off at the root.

Sola Scriptura CANNOT be true, because without the witness of the Catholic Church we have no way to identify which documents are Apostolic and which ones are not.

Why I reject sola scriptura

Nonsense. There is no flaw in my reasoning as it is based on the scriptures you deny. There will be no agreement between us because the doctrines from the Catholic Church teach and promote man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God and teach these supersede the Word of God.

This is simply a disagreement since the times of the reformation I was trying to share with someone else earlier. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:5; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; MATTHEW 15:2-9.

There is no salvation outside of the scriptures. Where your post fails is in thinking God is not in control of his Word. Scripture alone is true allright. Let's be honest, how can we have salvation when we are only saved by GRACE through FAITH *EPEHSIANS 2:8 when FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God? *ROMANS 10:17. Can you see the delemma you have put yourself in? Mary is not going to save you and neither are the dead saints or making and bowing down to idols which is forbidded in the scriptures. This is the real reason to argue against Sola scriptura right?

Hope this is helpful
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You have so much catching up to do that you have absolutely no idea what I've been saying. I suggest you study my posts more carefully.

Sure I do I am working through it. Why would you suggest otherwise.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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I don't have a problem with that because it involves a non-Christian who didn't believe the Bible having a personal encounter with Jesus which led to his conversion to Christ.

Awesome. Okay, one of my contentions with Sola Scriptura is how such a conversion is undermined by those who believe salvation must be grounded in the bible, "the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice". Doubt raised its head here in this thread earlier when someone asked "How can we know the conversion came about by the real Jesus?". Sola Scriptura contributes to that doubt. But here the source of authority was not the bible, it was God Himself. He is the Sole Infallible Source of Authority. The Bible has become like an idol that people use to hide from the Holy Spirit. Sounds contradictory! But so much division comes from bad interpretation. Everyone believes their eisegesis is exegesis. Direct Revelation unlocks the hidden secrets. It is a fear driven mentality that does not want this to be the case, fear of how the Holy Spirit works.

Luke 11:9-13
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

But the problem with that is, there is a prohibition to adding to what has already been written in the Bible (Proverbs 30:6-7).

Come on now, you honestly think this utterance is talking about the bible? I don't think it's even talking about the Pentateuch. I would on the contrary argue it's talking of direct revelation by saying don't add to the word He gives you.

But in saying that, I am by no means arguing to add to the bible. It doesn't make sense to unless we're going to add the history of the church for the last 2000 years; that might make some sense I suppose. But all I'm saying is that the bible has been raised up and worshiped as though it is God. It is not. It is a His-story book. It is fallible. But God speaks to us through it anyway, just like He speaks to us in the still of the night.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And His word says >
"the Spirit is truth" in 1 John 5:6.
And Jesus says He is "the light of the world." (John 8:12)
And Jesus Himself says we in Jesus are "the light of the world" (in Matthew 5:14).

Indeed. JESUS is pointing to His Word as shown through the scriptures...

PSALMS 119:105 THY WORD IS A LAMP UNTO MY FEET AND A LIGHT UNTO MY PATH

PSALMS 119:130 THE ENTRANCE OF YOUR WORDS GIVES LIGHT; IT GIVES UNDERSTANDING TO THE SIMPLE

PROVERBS 6:23 FOR THE COMMANDMENT IS A LAMP AND THE LAW IS LIGHT; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

ISAIAH 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM

JOHN 1:1-4 [1], In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD. [2], The same was in the beginning with God. [3], All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [4], In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [5], And THE LIGHT (Word) SHINES IN DARKNESS; and the darkness comprehended it not.

JOHN 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that LIGHT IS COME INTO THE WORLD (the Word), and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. FOR EVERYONE THAT DOES EVIL HATES THE LIGHT, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. BUT HE THAT DOES TRUTH COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

JOHN 17:17 SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THE TRUTH THY WORD IS TRUTH

JOHN 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD (The Word): he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD THEN YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES INDEED AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

.............

JESUS is the living Word of God and His Word is the light of the world. There is NO ILLUMINATION outside of Gods' WORD which is the LIGHT of the WORLD.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword.
God’s Word is power.
Matt.4
  1. [4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

Good post Isum! Seems many are trying to destroy the sword of the Spirit which we are to live by. Great post and scriptures.

God bless.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Oh! I didn't know that the "direct revelation" as part of Catholic doctrine.
So that means when the Pope gets into the Chair of Peter and gets a "direct revelation" for the Church, he gets it directly for Jesus as well? What if the Pope's "direct revelation" contrasts with our friend's "direct revelation", what then? Bears thinking about...
True Paul very scary! You can see why people are trying to destroy the Word. Then there is no way to test the Spirits to see if they are of God or not.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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But what I do oppose, is people like Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn purporting to get direct revelation that is obviously contrary to God's true plans and purposes

Such a positive post then you finish it with divisive, judgmental slander. Good Morning Holy Spirit is a fantastic book. TV ministry has saved countless. When I was in my early 20's these guys helped me a great deal. I used to record their shows and learned a lot. I honour them for the work they do and pray it continues. Reinhard Bonnke was my favourite. With your history, I am surprised you don't hold all God's workers in high regard. You don't have to agree to honour. If we had to agree to honour someone, we wouldn't honour anyone.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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That's right, and those traditions came from "direct revelation" while the Pope was in the Chair of Peter. This is because Catholics believe that the Pope is the Vicar of Christ and has direct communication with Christ that the ordinary Church member has not, so in their view, Jesus has to speak to the people through the Pope while he is in the Chair of Peter.

I am not knocking the Catholic Church here - just reflecting my own opinion about it. It is the same thing when a Charismatic prosperity preacher says that he is preaching from "direct revelation" from the Holy Spirit to the people and because the people trust the preacher, they accept it. It is also the same when a "prophet" gets up and says, "This is what the Lord is saying to me ("direct revelation"). It is very difficult for many to refute what is being said in such a prophecy, because it would seem they are opposing the Holy Spirit, when in reality, it is the "prophet's" own spirit speaking and he is usurping the authority of God to cause people to believe the prophecy.

Well we have a test to know if someone has been given a direct revelation from God and that is the Word of God if they speaks contrary to the scriptures then they are not from God. I believe God's people are in every Church *ROMANS 10:17 but the hour is coming and now is that the true the true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship him must worship him in Spirit and in truth *JOHN 4:23-24. God is calling his people out from following man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God back to the pure Word of God *REVELATION 14:8-12; REVELATION 18:1-5. Many will be called but few chosen it seems.

God bless.
 
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