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WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - A REBUTTAL

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Paul James

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Unregulated exegesis is just as chaotic as unregulated prophecy. Regulation is a simple manner - recall that Direct Revelation has to make us feel certain of the message. Therefore the following maxim applies to everyone involved - the (so-called) prophet, his audience, etc:

"I can accept a revelation without question when in fact I am unable to question it, that is, when it's raised my level of certainty so high that i CANNOT questoin it."
I never encountered "unregulated exegesis" in my post-graduate study of it. But I did learn the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. Do you know the difference?
 
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chilehed

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Of course we can. They are the same books as those two councils over 300 years removed from the life of Christ on Earth and the founding of His church approved of.
Yes. We know the identity of Sacred Scripture only because Christ's Church said that those 73 documents were in it, and not because of anything in the texts themselves.

Sola Scriptura cannot be true.
 
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JAL

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The answer to misinterpretation of Scripture is to just read the literal text as it is written and just believe it without trying to read stuff into it that isn't clearly stated in the text.
No it's not. You can't dismiss human fallibility with a wave of the hand. There are 100 billion souls at stake here - hence no margin for error. Only Direct Revelation offers real hope of infallible information from God.

Again, you can't even read Scripture, and deduce doctrine from it, without a man-made lexicon (or man-made translations) and man-made exegetical proofs. The whole process is fallible.
 
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JAL

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I never encountered "unregulated exegesis" in my post-graduate study of it. But I did learn the difference between exegesis and eisegesis. Do you know the difference?
What's your point?
 
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JAL

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It is interesting that many Charismatics believe in direct revelation from the Holy Spirit taking priority over written Scripture. One of the faults of the movement is that they accept everything supernatural as coming from the Holy Spirit, and therefore do not have accurate discernment about whether something supernatural is actually from God or not.

I am not knocking the Charismatic movement as some like to do out of ignorance concerning what it is really about. Most Charismatics are Bible-believing Christians who enjoy church more than others.

But the notion of "direct revelation" has brought in invasion of the occult in many wacky kundalini manifestations such as jerking, falling down, rolling on the floor, shaking, and other out of control behaviour; as well as Hindu mind-control ideas, such as "if I believe hard enough it will happen", positive thinking and confession; plus prosperity and guaranteed healing teaching. Much of this spurious stuff would be eliminated if believers properly searched and consulted the written Scripture to determine whether these manifestations and teachings are really Biblical, or not.
Unregulated exegesis and unregulated charismata are both chaotic. So?

Unregulated exegesis means loose or nonexistent hermeneutical guidelines thereby allowing capricious conclusions.
 
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Paul James

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No it's not. You can't dismiss human fallibility with a wave of the hand. There are 100 billion souls at stake here - hence no margin for error. Only Direct Revelation offers real hope of infallible information from God.

Again, you can't even read Scripture, and deduce doctrine from it, without a man-made lexicon (or man-made translations) and man-made exegetical proofs. The whole process is fallible.
The actual fact is that the Bible is the sole record of direct revelation from God through direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is God's complete direct revelation to mankind, and we have the written record of it in the Bible. Anything that purports to be direct revelation that has not already been revealed in any of the 66 books of the Bible is false and does not come from the Holy Spirit, no matter how certain anyone feels about the revelation they are receiving.
 
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JAL

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I'm not sure what the general consensus on blasphemy is. I personally haven't found much need to use that term - but if here it means an egregious doctrinal error, I'm okay with that usage for the moment.
So, Jesus relating the story about Abraham telling the rich man in hell that the guy's brothers had Moses and the Prophets (ie: the written Scriptures) and if they didn't believe the Scriptures, then even someone rising from the dead wouldn't convince them, is actually blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work?
Um...that's not a clear extrapolation of what was posted.

If the Holy Spirit inspired the authors to write their record of what God spoke to them, then it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work to place full dependence on the authority of the Bible, seeing that it is actually the Holy Spirit's work?
Yes. To deny the potency of Direct Revelation would count as blasphemy - in fact it potentially undermines the canonicity of the texts. If Direct Revelation is categorically deemed unreliable, then the texts produced by it are equally unreliable.
 
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lsume

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And it is all written down in the Bible as a permanent record for us.
The Word is beyond our ability to fully appreciate as we currently exist. When Christ has opened my eyes and ears to The Word, I’ve found it to be impossible to hold onto It’s depth. I’ve been Blessed to understand some parts of Scripture enough to know that it’s more than I can retain. The miracle of having your eyes opened and being illuminated is a tremendous Blessing. The Ancient Greek definition of apocalypse is what actually happens.
 
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JAL

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The actual fact is that the Bible is the sole record of direct revelation from God through direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is God's complete direct revelation to mankind, and we have the written record of it in the Bible. Anything that purports to be direct revelation that has not already been revealed in any of the 66 books of the Bible is false and does not come from the Holy Spirit, no matter how certain anyone feels about the revelation they are receiving.
Reiterating your position doesn't make it so. Furthermore Direct Revelation isn't "new revelation" - that's actually an oxymoron because every revelation post-Adam has been further clarification of the already-revealed. Not sure why you feel the need to rebut an oxymoron. You might want to argue something relevant to the debate.
 
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JAL

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I have studied exegesis and hermeneutics at Masters level as part of my post-graduate degree in Theology. So, what have you gained from your post-graduate study in the same area?
Your point?
 
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JAL

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The answer to misinterpretation of Scripture is to just read the literal text as it is written and just believe it without trying to read stuff into it that isn't clearly stated in the text.
And how does your maxim play out on this verse:

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy" (1Cor 14:1)
 
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JAL

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The actual fact is that the Bible is the sole record of direct revelation from God through direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is God's complete direct revelation to mankind, and we have the written record of it in the Bible. Anything that purports to be direct revelation that has not already been revealed in any of the 66 books of the Bible is false and does not come from the Holy Spirit, no matter how certain anyone feels about the revelation they are receiving.
Post 142 alleges a contradiction in Sola Scriptura that its proponents cannot resolve.

Any further charges against it are just icing on the cake.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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All that that "proves" is that a loosely-organized church can survive on the memory of what the members had been taught...from the Bible. That's where it all comes from, whether or not they currently are allowed to have a copy.

Even if these Christians do not know but the basics of the faith, being without the benefit of copies of the Bible as is the situation facing them, the Bible itself remains what it is--the word of God above which there is nothing more authoritative.

Please read this and see how a hunger for God and visions from God precede Brother Yun being given a bible. This is important. Because both "Direct Revelation" and "The Bible" are important, but these visions PRECEDE the supernatural gift of the bible.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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So, Jesus relating the story about Abraham telling the rich man in hell that the guy's brothers had Moses and the Prophets (ie: the written Scriptures) and if they didn't believe the Scriptures, then even someone rising from the dead wouldn't convince them, is actually blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work?

If the Holy Spirit inspired the authors to write their record of what God spoke to them, then it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work to place full dependence on the authority of the Bible, seeing that it is actually the Holy Spirit's work?

Absolutely. When you hold your own interpretation of the bible above the Holy Spirit Himself (and this happens all the time because there are so many different interpretations therefore at least some are holding the bible above the Spirit).

And your point about the Rich man and Lazarus only refutes your own belief. There are two sources for faith in the parable, Scripture and A Miracle.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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But the notion of "direct revelation" has brought in invasion of the occult in many wacky kundalini manifestations such as jerking, falling down, rolling on the floor, shaking, and other out of control behaviour; as well as Hindu mind-control ideas, such as "if I believe hard enough it will happen", positive thinking and confession; plus prosperity and guaranteed healing teaching. Much of this spurious stuff would be eliminated if believers properly searched and consulted the written Scripture to determine whether these manifestations and teachings are really Biblical, or not.

Your argument here is unsound. You are pointing out correlations between two groups. This does not mean the two groups are identical or receive their "works" from the same source. There is preaching in the Church of Satan. Should we stop preaching in the Church of Jesus? The important part is the fruit. How do the "manifestations" affect the person -- positively or negatively?

Anything that purports to be direct revelation that has not already been revealed in any of the 66 books of the Bible is false

So if God gives someone a dream and speaks to them about, say, selling a car, then we should reject His direction because there are no cars in the bible?
 
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JAL

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The actual fact is that the Bible is the sole record of direct revelation from God through direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is God's complete direct revelation to mankind, and we have the written record of it in the Bible. Anything that purports to be direct revelation that has not already been revealed in any of the 66 books of the Bible is false and does not come from the Holy Spirit, no matter how certain anyone feels about the revelation they are receiving.
You do realize, don't you, that Scripture is babe's milk? It's not solid food. In my 16-point rebuttal of Sola Scriptura, point 14 links to my posting where I surface Paul's emphasis in 1Corinthians on the absolute primacy of prophecy - and Paul uses solid food as ONE of his supporting points (he has several).

(14) A close analysis of the first epistle to the Corinthians strongly suggests an incredibly strict definition of spiritual maturity identifiable only with mature prophets. This epistle is prolific with references to Spirit-inspired speech such as prophecy and ascribes superlative revelation only to the mature, in keeping with Number 12:6-8. I have a thread on this epistle here. Relevant posts on that thread include: Post 7, and Post 33, and Post 46, and Post 47, and post 52, and post 58.

Paul began that emphasis in chapter 2 especially and thus by the time we get to verse 14:1...

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy"

...he has completely blown Sola Scriptura out of the water. Hint: Solid food is an elite class of Direct Revelations reserved for the mature, where "the mature" are veteran prophets.
 
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Paul James

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You do realize, don't you, that Scripture is babe's milk? It's not solid food. In my 16-point rebuttal of Sola Scriptura, point 14 links to my posting where I surface Paul's emphasis in 1Corinthians on the absolute primacy of prophecy - and Paul uses solid food as ONE of his supporting points (he has several).
Where did you get that from? His reference to them being babes was concerning their division into factions depending on their favourite preacher! Nothing to do with the way they viewed the Scriptures. Also, he was comparing the use of prophecy and that of tongues in the public church meetings. He never once stated that prophecy took priority over the Scriptures.

(14) A close analysis of the first epistle to the Corinthians strongly suggests an incredibly strict definition of spiritual maturity identifiable only with mature prophets. This epistle is prolific with references to Spirit-inspired speech such as prophecy and ascribes superlative revelation only to the mature, in keeping with Number 12:6-8. I have a thread on this epistle here. Relevant posts on that thread include: Post 7, and Post 33, and Post 46, and Post 47, and post 52, and post 58.
Paul never said anything of the sort about the maturity of prophets.

Paul began that emphasis in chapter 2 especially and thus by the time we get to verse 14:1...

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual things, especially the gift of prophecy"

...he has completely blown Sola Scriptura out of the water. Hint: Solid food is an elite class of Direct Revelations reserved for the mature, where "the mature" are veteran prophets.
This is a blatant misquoting and misuse of Scripture to try and prove your point. Your interpretation of 1 Corinthians is a good example of "man's tainted interpretation" of Scripture, and it looks like you have shot yourself in the foot!

This is what happens why you try to mix it with the big boys (and girls) who know the Scriptures much better than you are demonstrating here.
 
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Paul James

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The Word is beyond our ability to fully appreciate as we currently exist. When Christ has opened my eyes and ears to The Word, I’ve found it to be impossible to hold onto It’s depth. I’ve been Blessed to understand some parts of Scripture enough to know that it’s more than I can retain. The miracle of having your eyes opened and being illuminated is a tremendous Blessing. The Ancient Greek definition of apocalypse is what actually happens.
What you are saying is that the Holy Spirit is working in conjunction to what He has already said in the Biblical record.
 
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Paul James

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The Word is beyond our ability to fully appreciate as we currently exist. When Christ has opened my eyes and ears to The Word, I’ve found it to be impossible to hold onto It’s depth. I’ve been Blessed to understand some parts of Scripture enough to know that it’s more than I can retain. The miracle of having your eyes opened and being illuminated is a tremendous Blessing. The Ancient Greek definition of apocalypse is what actually happens.
Of course, the Bible is written in clear literal text so that it can be understood at face value rather than trying to gain some "deeper" more "spiritual" meaning from it. The real Spiritual meaning is clearly set out in the literal text which doesn't need interpreting at all. It just needs to be believed at face value.
 
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