WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - A REBUTTAL

[JAL]

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you - I can't tell which of your five meanings of Word that you currently have in mind.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It accepts the books of the Bible that have been the common possession of all Christians since the time of the councils that you go on and on about.

The notion that "Sola Scriptura cannot be true"...because it holds that we should be guided by the Bible rather than by legend, custom, folklore, or speculation and opinion (of "Early Church Fathers" or anyone else) doesn't even make sense as an argument.

It also holds the false premise that the creator of Heaven and Earth is not in control of His Word.

 

[Albion]

Which is exactly my point. We accept as a given that the identified books really are Apostolic only because the early Church recognized them as such - not because of anything in the documents themselves.

IMO, that's ridiculous. It's also patently untrue to the work and the decisions made by the councils you think determined what should be canonized as Holy Scripture.

At this point someone usually quotes a bible passage to try to prove that I'm wrong. But that assumes that the passage quoted is actually Sacred Scripture, which begs the question.

It doesn't beg any question if it IS actually Scripture according to the Authorized Version or the Catholic editions of the Bible, for that matter. Wouldn't you agree?

Of course no one would be persuaded if someone read from the phone book and claimed that it was Holy Scripture.

 

[Albion]

It also holds the false premise that the creator of Heaven and Earth is not in control of His Word.

What are you talking about?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What are you talking about?

Did you not know? Track back to your post's response to chilehed's claim that sola scriptura cannot be right because how can you know that the manuscripts are Gods' Word and it was only made by the Catholic church.

The whole argument is a false premise based on God is not in control of His Word. If you believe the scriptures that is where the whole argument simply falls over...

ISAIAH 55:11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

ISAIAH 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

God bless

 

[Albion]

Ah. Thank you for taking the time to run through that again.

 

[JAL]

You see, you are making assumptions about what I believe concerning prophecy without knowing my background, training, and experience in the prophetic.

In my 20s, I spent three years under the discipleship of a mature traditional Pentecostal pastor who was very experienced in the ministry of healing, with a few notable miracle healings to his credit, including his own, having been sent home from hospital in his 40s with an enlarged heart and was expected to die. He prayed and trusted God and was totally healed. He actually died in his late 70s of pneumonia after suffering a major stroke. He was also very experienced in the prophetic, and believed that one had to be a man of the Word and of prayer to be able to move in it successfully. He was very strict, and did not hesitate to tell someone to stop and sit down if he thought they were prophesying something that did not line up with Scripture.

When he used to correct me, which was often, he would get out his big black Bible and show me through Scripture where I went wrong. He was never wrong with his correction of me. He was so strict, that I was too scared to open my mouth to give a prophecy unless I knew beyond doubt that it was from the Lord. When he told me that my gift was genuine, and I should never give it up, I took that as a serious badge of honour.

When they had a prophetic forum on CF, I offered to give prophetic words to those who needed one, and I ended up giving around 200 prophetic words, and only one person did not concur and said he would think about it. One guy messaged me and asked me if I ate prophetic cornflakes for breakfast and drove a prophetic car to work. All the ones who fed back to me assured me that the word I gave them was of the Lord for them. I was amazed at that, because often I would have just a few minutes in the morning before I had to catch the bus to work and I quickly would ask the Lord, and the impression would come and I would give it in faith. Often someone would tell me that the Scripture I gave as part of the prophecy, they had been reading that very one and my prophetic word confirmed things for them. I never felt prophetic when I gave those words, and often I was apprehensive that I was giving a wrong word, but it never happened.

Then a couple of others on the prophetic forum would start giving long, negative, judgmental KJV prophecies which caused the staff to shut the forum down. Also, when some started using me as their prophetic vending machine, wanting prophecies every day, I asked the Lord and He told me to stop, not because I was doing wrong, but the devil was starting to muddy the waters because he didn't like what I was doing.

So, when you are speaking to me about the prophetic, you are preaching to the choir!

I think after all our conversations, we might be speaking past each other from different perspectives. I link the prophetic with the written Scriptures in the sense that to be prepared to move in the prophetic one must be totally familiar with the written Scriptures to the degree that when an impression comes I have to know instantly whether the impression is correct or not. I think this awareness comes through meditating in the Scriptures and taking plenty of time fellowshiping with the Lord in prayer, discussing the Scriptures with Him. After soaking in the Scriptures and prayer over a good period of time (and this is why novices should not rush into the prophetic) one then knows in his spirit that when an impression comes, it is the right one.

If this is what you are referring to as direct revelation, then I agree with you, as long as it is linked with an overall sense of what the Scripture teaches about the ways, plans and purposes of God, and are familiar with the presence of God through regular fellowship with Him. I used to live not too far from the coast where there was a very long wide beach, and I used to go there, walk along for a couple of hours with my hands in my pockets, having very pleasurable and fruitful discussions with the Lord about many things. Through that I got used to when the Lord spoke back to me, giving me insights into His plans and purposes through the Scriptures.

This goes right along with "My sheep know my voice, and they follow me, and they won't follow a stranger". This comes because the Middle Eastern shepherd almost lived with his sheep, guarded them, and spoke to them often. They became familiar with his voice, and could tell his voice from that of a stranger.

I dismissed your ministry without proper qualification. You see, I do believe in the concept of fallible revelation, although I am not thrilled with the tendency of some to call it real prophecy. A fallible revelation is basically anything received at less than 100% certainty - for example a message heard at a volume insufficiently distinct ("loud and clear") to easily make out the contents. And my pet peeve is with people who proclaim such messages with the preface, "Thus saith the Lord". Instead they should hedge it with the disclaimer, "I'm not totally sure this message is from the Lord". Perhaps you had a fledgling prophetic ministry of sorts, but I wouldn't consider it a full-fledged prophetic ministry because you said that, sometimes:

He would get out his big black Bible and show me through Scripture where I went wrong.

I believe that genuine prophecy is infallible and doesn't require exegetical testing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I dismissed your ministry without proper qualification. You see, I do believe in the concept of fallible revelation, although I am not thrilled with the tendency of some to call it real prophecy. A fallible revelation is basically anything received at less than 100% certainty - for example a message heard at a volume insufficiently distinct ("loud and clear") to easily make out the contents. And my pet peeve is with people who proclaim such messages with the preface, "Thus saith the Lord". Instead they should hedge it with the disclaimer, "I'm not totally sure this message is from the Lord". Perhaps you had a fledgling prophetic ministry of sorts, but I wouldn't consider it a full-fledged prophetic ministry because you said that, sometimes: I believe that genuine prophecy is infallible and doesn't require exegetical testing.

If your teaching against the scriptures dear friend it will only lead you away from God not to Him as it is written; "For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure to him" JOHN 3:34. According to the scriptures which test the Spirits no one is from God if they are not leading us to God through faith in his Word *ROMANS 10:17. As God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27. You provide your words that are not God's to scatter the sheep when only God's Word is true *ROMANS 3:4 and we should believe and follow them *JOHN 10:26-27.

 

[chilehed]

It doesn't beg any question if it IS actually Scripture according to the Authorized Version or the Catholic editions of the Bible, for that matter. Wouldn't you agree?

That's not how logic works. You don't get to say that your thinking is rational merely because you happened upon the right answer, and Sola Scriptura doesn't provide any way to know which documents are Apostolic and which are not. So you still haven't resolved the problem.

I notice that no one's bothered to demonstrate what books are Apostolic while strictly adhering to the idea of sola scriptura. Why don't you try?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

YAW you just hand waived the answer to the question I provied and asked of you. There was a reason why I asked it, Do you know what it means? Only asking this as this will help the discussion. For example as sumarized earlier what do you think NO WORD = NO FAITH and NO FAITH = SIN and NO SALVATION means? Do you think there can be salvation without the Word of

I answered your question. I guess I can try again.

I'll begin explaining how I think you see it followed by how I see it...
1. No word= No faith
You think: a person can not be saved without someone sharing the gospel with them.
I think: if Jesus hasn't come to a person (by way of preaching, prophecy, dream, vision, etc then that person can not have faith in Jesus).

2. No faith=sin
You think: anyone who hasn't heard the gospel and continually place their faith actively in Jesus is in sin.
I think: no faith in Jesus for salvation means a person is still in sin.

3. No salvation
You think: Word of mouth/written word about Jesus-->Faith/active believing-->salvation
I think: Word (Jesus Himself) --> Faith/receive/accept Him--> Salvation

So finally have I answered too your high level of expectation? Because now the final question you ask can be answered. There can be salvation at any time for anyone when Jesus Himself Comes to that person. One way of bringing Jesus too the person is by preaching. It is not the only way though.

And this is important because it takes us back to why you asked me about these things, Muslims can be saved by Jesus through dreams without a preacher. Jesus can save how He saves and won't be held back by our limited understanding of something Paul wrote to churches 2000 years ago.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Do we not already know from the Bible that Jesus is the savior?

The Muslims didn't know. They didn't own a bible.

 

[Paul James]

I would say neither matter to those who seek to get rid of the scriptures.

It is worrying that many Christians are attacking the authority of the Bible.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I answered your question. I guess I can try again.

I'll begin explaining how I think you see it followed by how I see it...
1. No word= No faith
You think: a person can not be saved without someone sharing the gospel with them.
I think: if Jesus hasn't come to a person (by way of preaching, prophecy, dream, vision, etc then that person can not have faith in Jesus).

2. No faith=sin
You think: anyone who hasn't heard the gospel and continually place their faith actively in Jesus is in sin.
I think: no faith in Jesus for salvation means a person is still in sin.

3. No salvation
You think: Word of mouth/written word about Jesus-->Faith/active believing-->salvation
I think: Word (Jesus Himself) --> Faith/receive/accept Him--> Salvation

So finally have I answered too your high level of expectation? Because now the final question you ask can be answered. There can be salvation at any time for anyone when Jesus Himself Comes to that person. One way of bringing Jesus too the person is by preaching. It is not the only way though.

And this is important because it takes us back to why you asked me about these things, Muslims can be saved by Jesus through dreams without a preacher. Jesus can save how He saves and won't be held back by our limited understanding of something Paul wrote to churches 2000 years ago.

Hello YAA nice to see you again. The point of my question and post to you which was based on the scriptures provided was to simply show that there is no salvation without the Word of God that leads to faith in Gods' Word. If we do away with Gods' Word we do away with faith and if we do away with faith there is no salvation because we are only saved by God's GRACE through faith. I believe hose who are seeking to do away from God's Word are doing away with their own salvation and the salvation of anyone who believes them.

 

[Paul James]

I dismissed your ministry without proper qualification. You see, I do believe in the concept of fallible revelation, although I am not thrilled with the tendency of some to call it real prophecy. A fallible revelation is basically anything received at less than 100% certainty - for example a message heard at a volume insufficiently distinct ("loud and clear") to easily make out the contents. And my pet peeve is with people who proclaim such messages with the preface, "Thus saith the Lord". Instead they should hedge it with the disclaimer, "I'm not totally sure this message is from the Lord". Perhaps you had a fledgling prophetic ministry of sorts, but I wouldn't consider it a full-fledged prophetic ministry because you said that, sometimes:


I believe that genuine prophecy is infallible and doesn't require exegetical testing.

Here is a Scripture passage where the Lord speaks directly, and it is not good news for those who purport to be hearing the voice of the Lord and say their prophecies are coming from the Lord;

25 “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. 28 Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

30 “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

False Prophecy
33 “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the message from the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What message? I will forsake you, declares the Lord.’ 34 If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ I will punish them and their household. 35 This is what each of you keeps saying to your friends and other Israelites: ‘What is the Lord’s answer?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 36 But you must not mention ‘a message from the Lord’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the Lord’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 38 Although you claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ this is what the Lord says: You used the words, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.” (Jeremiah 23:25-40).

When I see people running around saying they have heard the voice of God, and are giving prophecies and words of knowledge to people saying "This is what the Lord is saying"; when I read through this Scripture passage and see what the Lord is saying about these people, I worry for them. It also puts me off exercising the gift of prophecy these days, because the last thing I want is to give false prophecies out of my own head and cause harm to others. Therefore I have to know beyond doubt that what I am getting is really from the Lord, otherwise my prophetic mouth remains firmly shut!

Also, those ones who say they are getting direct revelation from the Lord without checking it with the written Scriptures, need to carefully read the above Scripture reference and pray: "Is it me Lord?" If a "direct revelation" came back in reply saying, "You are the man!" Would that be accepted?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Hello YAA nice to see you again. The point of my question and post to you which was based on the scriptures provided was to simply show that there is no salvation without the Word of God that leads to faith in Gods' Word. If we do away with Gods' Word we do away with faith and if we do away with faith there is no salvation because we are only saved by God's GRACE through faith. I believe hose who are seeking to do away from God's Word are doing away with their own salvation and the salvation of anyone who believes them.

Say "no salvation without the Word of God". We agree. But you are substituting Bible in the place of Word of God. There was no bible when the bible was written! I'm sorry but your argument makes no sense. You can't sub in bible wherever you want.

Here's a good pointer: the bible can only reference things older than itself. Therefore the Word of God NEVER means the bible when written IN the bible.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Here is a Scripture passage where the Lord speaks directly, and it is not good news for those who purport to be hearing the voice of the Lord and say their prophecies are coming from the Lord;

25 “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? 27 They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their ancestors forgot my name through Baal worship. 28 Let the prophet who has a dream recount the dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?” declares the Lord. 29 “Is not my word like fire,” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

30 “Therefore,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me. 31 Yes,” declares the Lord, “I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” declares the Lord. “They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least,” declares the Lord.

False Prophecy
33 “When these people, or a prophet or a priest, ask you, ‘What is the message from the Lord?’ say to them, ‘What message? I will forsake you, declares the Lord.’ 34 If a prophet or a priest or anyone else claims, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ I will punish them and their household. 35 This is what each of you keeps saying to your friends and other Israelites: ‘What is the Lord’s answer?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 36 But you must not mention ‘a message from the Lord’ again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: ‘What is the Lord’s answer to you?’ or ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ 38 Although you claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ this is what the Lord says: You used the words, ‘This is a message from the Lord,’ even though I told you that you must not claim, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.” (Jeremiah 23:25-40).

When I see people running around saying they have heard the voice of God, and are giving prophecies and words of knowledge to people saying "This is what the Lord is saying"; when I read through this Scripture passage and see what the Lord is saying about these people, I worry for them. It also puts me off exercising the gift of prophecy these days, because the last thing I want is to give false prophecies out of my own head and cause harm to others. Therefore I have to know beyond doubt that what I am getting is really from the Lord, otherwise my prophetic mouth remains firmly shut!

Also, those ones who say they are getting direct revelation from the Lord without checking it with the written Scriptures, need to carefully read the above Scripture reference and pray: "Is it me Lord?" If a "direct revelation" came back in reply saying, "You are the man!" Would that be accepted?

Depends on the context.

 

[Paul James]

Say "no salvation without the Word of God". We agree. But you are substituting Bible in the place of Word of God. There was no bible when the bible was written! I'm sorry but your argument makes no sense. You can't sub in bible wherever you want.

Here's a good pointer: the bible can only reference things older than itself. Therefore the Word of God NEVER means the bible when written IN the bible.

I heard God tell me to look up Jeremiah 23 about false prophets dreaming up stuff from their own heads, and so I did, and posted what God told me about it, directly as He told it to Jeremiah.

 

[Paul James]

Depends on the context.

I heard God's voice telling me to post the Jeremiah reference to let people know what He thinks about people saying they are getting revelations from Him, when He is not giving them at all, but they are dreaming them up out of their own heads.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I heard God's voice telling me to post the Jeremiah reference to let people know what He thinks about people saying they are getting revelations from Him, when He is not giving them at all, but they are dreaming them up out of their own heads.

Sorry, I was responding to your question. God might say "you are the man" depending on the context.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

I heard God tell me to look up Jeremiah 23 about false prophets dreaming up stuff from their own heads, and so I did, and posted what God told me about it, directly as He told it to Jeremiah.

What's this got to do with the bible only referencing older scriptures and not itself?