Why so many non-biblicial traditions?

[charlesseamanj]

Are we not made holy by Christ?

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.




​

And no, it is not an abonimation to call the pope "holy father".



Paul oftern referred to himself directly and indirectly as a spiritual father to his flock and his flock as his spiritual children, so it is biblical to refer to a man as a spiritual father.

The phrase "holy father" applied to the spiritual leader of the Catholic Church is, in fact, very bibically based.


Peace

You do not actualy justify yourself in THIS way do you?

So are you holy right not? One who says yes is a lier and the truth is not in that person. Oh yes, the bible says that we are being made holy:
"he has perfected forever those who are being holy."

Last I checked, we are living in sinfull flesh. Last I checked, the pope is a man like everyone else, who also has commited sin.

 

[livingproofGM]

Last I checked, we are living in sinfull flesh. Last I checked, the pope is a man like everyone else, who also has commited sin.

So? The disciples sinned to, does that mean that they weren't holy and given authority?

 

[charlesseamanj]

Really? The Church is not the light of the world?





And this is what Jesus said about the Church He started with the Apostles, continued thorugh the millenia through apostolic succession

You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.



Matthew 5:14-16




​

Peace

How exactly do you supose we become the light of the world? By having the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in us. It is because of Jesus that we are the light of the world. So then it is Jesus who is the light. We shine the light of Jesus through our lives and actions. This is a simple thing to understand.

 

[charlesseamanj]

I agree. The term "Holy Father" is used only once in Scripture and it's addressed toward our Father in heaven. No man on earth should be called Holy Father.

Neither is any man a or the holy father.

Come on everybody! People bend down and kiss his hand out of veneration for God's sake.
Can't you see how this interfears with true worship of the one and only Holy Father, Jesus Christ?

 

[charlesseamanj]

So? The disciples sinned to, does that mean that they weren't holy and given authority?

"All have sined and fall short of the glory of God."
"If we say we have no sin, we are a lier and the truth is not in us."
"He has perfected forever those who ARE BEING MADE HOLY."

The deciples were given athority as sons of God and hiers according to the promiss. Have you not read these things in your bible?

 

[charlesseamanj]

We have been through this before, haven't we BrightCandle?

Jesus also said if your eye caused you to sin, you were to pluck it out, and if your hand caused you to sin you were to cut it off, etc . .

Have you plucked out either of your eyes BrightCandle? Have you cut off any of your hands or feet?


Of course not, for you understand that Jesus didn't mean this literally . it would be absurd to think He meant it literally . .

And of course, He did not . . .for He was using a very often used form of speach called hyperbole . . . this is used often by Jesus in the scriptures . .


Call no man father is also another example of hyperbole, for if He meant it literally, then you could not call even your earthly father "father" or any of its derivatives, such as "dad", "daddy" etc . .

Of course, that is also absurd . . .

And it is even more absurd to take this as a literal statement, rather than as hyperbole, since Paul many times refers to his flock as children and he as their "father" . .

Now, are you suggesting that Paul, a very important apostle, did not understand Jesus' words?


Of course he understood that Jesus was using hyperbole and was not speaking literally . . and so he had no difficulty whatsoever in calling himself his flock's spiritual father or his flock his children . .


When it comes to interpreting scripture, it is very important that we recognize the type of speach being employed. . . . here, it is hyperbole . .nothing more . .and exaggeration to make a point . .



Peace

Anyone with common sence can figure out that Jesus was using a figure of speech. But do you understand what he was really saying?

I am now to call a sinfull human being "Holy Father"? God forbid. Do you not know that you have only one Holy Father, which resides in heaven on a throne?
Do you not know that God himself said: "I am Yahweh your God and I will not share my glory with another."?

Many of you are using human arguement, and not seeking Spirituial understanding.

 

[cristoiglesia]

Neither is any man a or the holy father.

Come on everybody! People bend down and kiss his hand out of veneration for God's sake.
Can't you see how this interfears with true worship of the one and only Holy Father, Jesus Christ?

No, explain?

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[livingproofGM]

"All have sined and fall short of the glory of God."
"If we say we have no sin, we are a lier and the truth is not in us."
"He has perfected forever those who ARE BEING MADE HOLY."

The deciples were given athority as sons of God and hiers according to the promiss. Have you not read these things in your bible?

I have read these things in my Bible. What's your point? You are saying that the Pope sins, the first Pope sinned, the 50th Pope sinned, so what? I agree with you.

 

[charlesseamanj]

I have read these things in my Bible. What's your point? You are saying that the Pope sins, the first Pope sinned, the 50th Pope sinned, so what? I agree with you.

So why do Catholics venerate the man?

 

[livingproofGM]

So why do Catholics venerate the man?

We venerate him (and you do know that means honor right?) because He is a successor of Peter, and is our spiritual father for the Catholic Church. Peter was summoned by God to feed His sheep. This is what the Pope does.

 

[Borealis]

So why do Catholics venerate the man?
I really do care why. It is an abomanation either way.

The Pope has been called to a unique service: to serve as God's earthly shepherd for His flock. Just as Peter was called two thousand years ago, the Pope gives his life to the service of God in a way that none of us can even imagine. GOD chooses the Pope; in the past some of the choices made haven't been the most stellar, but it's been a long, long time since we had a Pope who was unworthy of our respect as a man. The office ALWAYS commands respect, though the person occupying it does not necessarily follow.

It's not an abomination, it's just foreign to your understanding because you refuse to accept the Catholic Church as being the shining city on the hill that Christ told us about.

I could easily call the doctrines of sola fidei and sola scriptura abominations, since they are completely man-made doctrines that are directly contrary to Christ's teachings.

 

[charlesseamanj]

The Pope has been called to a unique service: to serve as God's earthly shepherd for His flock. Just as Peter was called two thousand years ago, the Pope gives his life to the service of God in a way that none of us can even imagine. GOD chooses the Pope;

So now he is a man chosen by God to be the leader and feeder of Gods' sheep?
[edit]

Because he is believed to be Gods man on earth, people bow down to him in utmost respect kissing his hand. This sounds like the definition of the hebrew word for worship to me. Which of course we are commanded not to do for anyone or anything else but God alone.

 

[livingproofGM]

So now he is a man chosen by God to be the leader and feeder of Gods' sheep?
This sounds like a cult leader to me.

Because he is believed to be Gods man on earth, people bow down to him in utmost respect kissing his hand. This sounds like the definition of the hebrew word for worship to me. Which of course we are commanded not to do for anyone or anything else but God alone.

So, Christ instituted an occult? Did you know that He told Peter to feed His sheep? Kissing the Popes hand is a sign of utmost respect, and it is not a sin. In Japan, people bow to eachother as a greeting. Is this a sin?

 

[graysparrow]

You do not actualy justify yourself in THIS way do you?

So are you holy right not? One who says yes is a lier and the truth is not in that person. Oh yes, the bible says that we are being made holy:
"he has perfected forever those who are being holy."

Last I checked, we are living in sinfull flesh. Last I checked, the pope is a man like everyone else, who also has commited sin.

Making fun out of people is indeed a sin

 

[livingproofGM]

graysparrow, how did you get that green smiley? I don't have that face...

 

[thereselittleflower]

None of that changes the fact that the title Holy Father belongs to God , not the Pope. When I heard Pat Robertson call Him that on television, my mouth dropped open in astonishment. I just couldn't believe it.

Lynn, then maybe it is not as big of a deal as it seems to you.

I think what you are doing is taking a phrase that occurs once in the scriptures in a prayer to an extreme . . and this is causing you some difficulty.

Look at the phrase "holy father" and the words and what they actually mean and the various ways in which they can be used.



If we start with the passage where this phrase is found in scripture we find these definitions of the original words in the Greek:

HOLY


G40

ἅγιος

hagios

hag'-ee-os

From ἅγοςhagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


​

When God is addressed as "Holy Father" in a prayer, it is understood that the word "Holy" carries the meaning of pure, morally blameless . .


But these are not the only meanings of this word . . it also means CEREMONIALLY CONSECRATED.

There is no doubt that the pope is ceremonially consecrated, so there is no problem in using the word "holy" when addressing him or speaking of him. It takes nothing away from God and does not try to put the pope in God's place.

It is just as appropriate to refer to the pope as our spiritual "father" as it was for Paul to refer to himself as his flock's spiritual "father" in scripture. . . we have demonstrated that Jesus' admonition against calling no man "father" was hyperbole . . simply an exaggeration to make a point . .


I hope this helps to remove the confusion regarding our use of this phrase to refer to our pope . . . there is absolutely nothing inappropriate at all about the use of such a phrase or title . . it is perfectly legitimate to use and is a very accurate descriptive title of his position in the Catholic Church.

I hope you see how it does not conflict with, or compete with any of God's titles in any way.



Peace

 

[graysparrow]

It's simply the I'm serious smiley you get it by writing : | together, like this

 

[charlesseamanj]

Making fun out of people is indeed a sin

So would you say that saying to someone that they are a son of a viper is a sin? Jesus did.
Would you say calling someone warped, blind guides, ignorent, foolish, and hypocrits is a sin? Many in the new testement do.

No it is not a sin when used in the proper context.
Do not judge by mere human standerds. It is foolishness. Judge by the truth.

[edit]

 

[livingproofGM]

This way, you will find the lies in the catholic church.

Yet, you've failed to point out any. If you have presented what you BELIEVE to be lies, we have refuted them with scripture.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You do not actualy justify yourself in THIS way do you?

So are you holy right not? One who says yes is a lier and the truth is not in that person. Oh yes, the bible says that we are being made holy:
"he has perfected forever those who are being holy."

Last I checked, we are living in sinfull flesh. Last I checked, the pope is a man like everyone else, who also has commited sin.

I guess God got it wrong in the scriptures then, huh ?

Let's try this again

Here is what the scripture says . .

Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

​

Now, if you are denying that you have been made holy and you are a true believer in Christ, then you are arguing with scripture, not with me . .

You are arguing with God Himself . . . that is, if you believe scripture is from God . . you do believe this, right?



The scriptures say we are holy - they say we are holy in the PAST TENSE . . so, if you are right, then we can't trust the scriptures . . .there goes sola scripture right out the window . . thank you


The scriptures say we have beeen made holy . . PAST TENSE . .

And the quote you provided above does not say what you say it says

Here is what it actually says:

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

​

This does not say "being made holy" or "who are being made sanctified"

It says who ARE SANCTIFIED . . .

It is presented as something already done. Past not present action. So you have misrepresented what the word of God says in that verse.


For a further information on how we use the term "holy father" in reference to the pope please see my post above. . .



Peace