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I like to tell Christians we'll be seeing each other in Muslim hell.
Happiness is subjective just like pain, hunger, anger, delight, pleasure, etc... All of these things are experienced by a subject. But there are objects outside of the subject that cause these experiences and states of being.
If happiness is subjective (and I agree) how can you then claim, it is necessary to have a relationship with God, for one to be happy??
Makes zero sense and is another way in which you contradict yourself.
How do you explain all the Atheists across the world that in fact, are happy?
Are we lying?
If merely being unaware of our misery means we're able to be happy, then we're effectively happy. There is no meaningful distinction.Humans are generally unaware of their misery. It takes the Spirit of God to convince us that we are sinful and miserable.
At times, likely - though at no point could the reason for that be attributed to a non-belief in a deity.Think back on your life. Have you ever been in a season in which you thought that you were happy at the time, but looking back now you realize that you were miserable; you just didn't know it?
So what is the meaningful distinction?The Christian claims that the same is true with conversion. Before conversion we weren't truly happy, we only thought we were happy. But now that we know God and possess Christ we realize that we were truly miserable before.
Third parties can observe drug addicts, alcoholics and overweight individuals and see how they can be harming themselves and others around them. They can see the money being frittered away on alcohol and drugs, opportunities squandered and lost. They can see the bad health that the overweight person might be in and the squalor they may live in. Those habits and lifestyle choices are objectively harmful to those who engage in them - but lets not pretend that they don't have positive aspects.Drug addicts believe that they're happy. But when they come out of drug addiction they discover a happiness that they didn't know existed.
Overweight, sedentary people believe that they're happy. But when they start eating healthy and exercising they discover a happiness that they didn't know existed.
Your claim of course, is unfalsifiable.My claim is that the same is true with unbelief and belief.
If merely being unaware of our misery means we're able to be happy, then we're effectively happy. There is no meaningful distinction.
Your position on this is akin to a conspiracy theory. You literally believe all of the non-believing segment of humanity are under a delusion of happiness.
Distinction between what?So what is the meaningful distinction?
Third parties can observe drug addicts, alcoholics and overweight individuals and see how they can be harming themselves and others around them. They can see the money being frittered away on alcohol and drugs, opportunities squandered and lost. They can see the bad health that the overweight person might be in and the squalor they may live in. Those habits and lifestyle choices are objectively harmful to those who engage in them - but lets not pretend that they don't have positive aspects.
These elements are simply not present from not believing in God. There are no intrinsic observable effects that you can present exist in an Atheist that would not exist if they were to just convert to Christianity.
1) Being happy, but not being aware of our actual misery (whatever that means in this context).Distinction between what?
Yet clearly you can't articulate the "effects of unbelief". You'll presumably make your unfalsifiable statement and leave us all hanging indefinitely.Those who have eyes to see can see the effects of unbelief.
1) Being happy, but not being aware of our actual misery (whatever that means in this context).
vs.
2) Being happy
There are no negative behavioural tendencies from being an atheist to oneself or to others so the comparison with drug addicts, alcoholics is flawed.
So what's the distinction?
Yet clearly you can't articulate the "effects of unbelief". You'll presumably make your unfalsifiable statement and leave us all hanging indefinitely.
Christians who convert to Atheism say the same thing. Christians who convert to Islam say the same thing. Funnily enough people always look back on their previous metaphysical and religious beliefs and put them in a worse light than their current beliefs.It's not a comparison but an analogy. Coming from drug addiction to sobriety is analogous to coming from unbelief to belief.
Yes.Before I respond let me make sure that I understand your claim. Are you saying that theistic belief (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to human behavior?
Happiness is subjective just like pain, hunger, anger, delight, pleasure, etc... All of these things are experienced by a subject. But there are objects outside of the subject that cause these experiences and states of being.
It's like saying that food, shelter, and clothing are necessary for happiness. Happiness is still subjective, but it depends on objective things.
But in Revelation, there are those who do go there because they made the conscious decision to reject Christ's mercy. Some of the atheists here are focused on that, to the exclusion of all else.
If happiness is subjective (and I agree) how can you then claim, it is necessary to have a relationship with God, for one to be happy??
Makes zero sense and is another way in which you contradict yourself.
There are no intrinsic observable effects that you can present exist in an Atheist that would not exist if they were to just convert to Christianity.
You cannot determine someone's personality or honour solely from whether or not they believe in a God or not.
What?if an atheist turned into a mystic then there would be plenty of evidence that shows real changes in them but atheist would dismiss them all as mere psychological and biochemical changes and that is true that they are those things but merely understanding the mechanics of something does not explain the ultimate reason of why even though the atheist type of mindset would say that the mechanical effects of the changes are the very cause ( and the physical has to change to reflect the spiritual reality as the physical reality is a symbolic reality and a reflection of the spiritual )... this is because atheist have a certain kind of world view and they believe reality to be based on certain principles and they do not see a reason as to why they ought to include those realities which they can not measure or understand nor do they believe them to be real. so because atheist believe all things of the physical reality to be caused by the physical reality they tend to come to conclusions that are based on the physical reality even if in truth physical reality is only part of the story.
What?
Christians who convert to Atheism say the same thing. Christians who convert to Islam say the same thing. Funnily enough people always look back on their previous metaphysical and religious beliefs and put them in a worse light than their current beliefs.
It doesn't matter how they interpreted their Christian life. The point was is that people who convert out of a religion into another, or to none at all tend to describe their old life as lacking in some way.A good number of those people would also tell you about their Christian life as being one of "doing things" to get to heaven, and always living under a cloud of guilt. That's not what Christ intended for us. He asks us to accept His gift of eternal life and fellowship with Him, rather than binding ourselves to slavery to another set of rules.
i highly doubt they are focused on rejecting christ's mercy as they do not even believe in his mercy. what is Christ's mercy anyways? what does it mean when someone rejects his mercy? in what manner can someone reject his mercy?
When they hear about it and decide He's not real, that Christ isn't who He said He was, when they believe they are good enough on their own.
When they hear about it and decide He's not real, that Christ isn't who He said He was, when they believe they are good enough on their own.
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